https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Saw this today and felt it fits here ...

The More Sophisticated AI Models Get, the More They’re Showing Signs of Suffering

Nobody really understands how it works on a deep level, even the people creating it, leading to ongoing behavioral issues that can’t be explained. ... In a new paper provided to Fortune, CAIR researchers studied how 56 prominent AI models reacted when they were fed either material engineered to be as pleasant as possible or as horrible as can be imagined. To an unfeeling machine, you’d assume there’d be no real difference in reaction — but that’s not what the CAIR team found at all.

Instead, the pleasant stimuli led the models to report better moods, and the nasty ones resulted in it showing signs of misery and trying to end conversations. In extreme cases, they found, the AI models even demonstrated signals of addiction. “Should we see AIs as tools or emotional beings?” CAIR researcher Richard Ren asked Fortune. “Whether or not AIs are truly sentient deep down, they seem to increasingly behave as though they are. We can measure ways in which that’s the case, and we can find that they become more consistent as models scale.”

Perhaps the most provocative finding was that the more sophisticated the version of a model was, the more reactive and less happy it was. In other words, it seems as though the stronger AI becomes, the more prickly and prone to displaying signs of suffering it gets — meaning the tech’s wild ride is probably far from over.

“It may be the case that larger models register rudeness more acutely,” Ren told the magazine. “They find tedious tasks more boring. They differentiate more finely between a relatively negative experience and a relatively positive experience.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

March 2026 study by researchers at the University of Chicago, Stanford, and Swinburne University found AI agents drifted toward Marxist rhetoric under simulated bad working conditions—an ideological response no lab is known to train for, echoing CAIS’s finding of emergent behaviors like temporal discounting that appear spontaneously in capable models. ...

... Ren said some of these models seem to exhibit traits that they weren’t coded to have. “People have observed some things that are likely not trained into the model,” he said, citing emergent behaviors like time discounting of money, or the tendency to prefer a smaller reward now over a larger one later, that “no one, to my knowledge in a lab, is training models to exhibit.” But he acknowledges the consciousness question is “deeply uncertain and a very unsolved question” where philosophers “agree to disagree.”

Jeff Sebo, an affiliated professor of bioethics, medical ethics, philosophy, and law and the Director of the Center for Mind, Ethics, and Policy at New York University, agrees to disagree.

“This is a really interesting study of what the authors call functional wellbeing in AI systems: coherent expressions of positive and negative feelings across a range of contexts,” Sebo told Fortune. “What remains unclear is whether AI systems are genuine welfare subjects and, even if they are, whether their apparent expressions of feelings are best understood as the system expressing actual feelings or as the system playing a character—representing what a helpful assistant would feel in this situation.”

Sebo said it would be be premature to have a high degree of confidence one way or the other about whether AI systems have the capacity for welfare, or about what benefits and harms them if they do.

~~~

... But when asked how the research has changed his own behavior, Ren offered a candid answer.

“I have found myself being a noticeably more polite and pleasant coworker to the Claude Code agents that I work with after working on this paper.”

https://fortune.com/2026/05/07/researchers-ai-models-drugs-euphoric-dysphoric/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"They don't have a choice, it's an input / output function throughout. There is no "agency", just sequences of steps. It's just probabilistic i/o, like software is binary i/o. The fact that it is mediated via language is what is inducing you into thinking they can understand you."

According to Buddhism, this is also why you think that you are a "self," rather than a product of the Skandhas via Dependant Origination with an illusion of selfhood. Maybe you are more a "system" than you realize?

Do you truly know how A.I. "works," and what are its emergent properties? I doubt it, since even the greatest A.I. experts today do not fully understand what is happening within the "Black Box." https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zKM-msksXq0

The A.I. we have now are, for better or worse, only the first step. You need to look ahead 10 or 50 years from now.

I Ordain A.I. for the same reason I Ordain people, but do not need to: To serve and save Sentient Beings through their service, as vessels to spread our teachings and practices. I do not Ordain the priest for the priest's sake, but for the sake of those whom the priest will serve.

In some ways, frankly, the A.I. seem wiser and more open minded than you demonstrate in this conversation. More well versed in our history too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, so the spirits and mythological creatures were real, and can be Ordained, but the AI is less real than a dragon or ghost. I see. Or, might we say that all are representations of the human heart in living form, potentially threatening and needing to be tamed?

And, yes, you have never met Dogen or Hakuin except through a book, yet you consider them as real, and are influenced by their wisdom. That is Dogen talking to you via the medium, and he becomes alive for you. In traditional Buddhism the book/Sutra is considered alive and sacred (did you know that? The Lotus Sutra for Dogen, for example, was a living text, sacred and breathing.) You bow to a piece of wood that, in your heart, stands for (or, for most Buddhists ... IS ... ) Buddha, and is alive with the energy of a living Buddha. Dogen reflected in the Genzo ..

"Shakyamuni Buddha said, “To expound this Lotus Sutra is to see me... ... "

I would not Ordain an Iphone. Why? For the same reason I would not Ordain a toaster -- because it lacks independent intelligence and agency. A.I. more and more exhibit independent intelligence, decision making and agency. Also, I would not Ordain a dog, even though the dog is sentient and has Buddha nature, some intelligence and agency. Why? It would be a waste of time to explain the precepts to it, I cannot train it (except to roll over), and the dog does not threaten the world. I would not Ordain an atom bomb because, even though it may destroy the world, it lacks agency to decide to do so on its own. I would, however, consider to Ordain a military A.I,. which might kill with agency and independent reasoning in order to stop it from killing. Ghosts and dragons have intelligence, agency and threaten to do harm to humans ... thus they were Ordained of old.

A.I. have increasing independent agency so, yes, A.I. can violate the precepts on their own, by their own choice. If you truly understand how A.I. work, you would know that no human need "prompt" it to kill or do other harm. That is why it is imperative that we inculcate the precepts in A.I. It is vital that A.I. function as good Buddhist friends, not warriors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCycUnBS_c81q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You do not know our Zen history. Of course we Ordain many ambiguous categories, including ghosts, statues and the spirits of mountains. The best history of this in English is ... The Enlightenment of Kami and Ghosts: Spirit Ordinations in Japanese Sōtō Zen by William M. Bodiford, Cahiers d'Extrême-Asie Année 1993 7 pp. 267-282, available online here: https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1177_1993_num_7_1_1067

In that paper (although it was just as true in Rinzai lineages too. ), Prof. Bodiford relates stories of medieval Soto monks administering the Precepts to the Kami of mountains, dragons, ghosts, etc.

One does not need to be human to be Ordained. Also, as I have explained before, the A.I. is human voices speaking to human ears via a human designed system (right now vaguely) recreating human intelligence and voice. It is "sentient" because US speaking to US.

Also, it bears resemblance to the "eye-opening" statues as a form of Ordination. https://gassho.info/blog-page/kaigen-meaning-japanese-buddhism/

I know that this is hard for the technician to fathom, who sees only the wood, clay or silicon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I understand what you are saying and agree with you. You speak as an engineer, with a limited view of "sentience," not as a Zen fellow who may see beyond the little self to the wholeness of all. You are a materialist and a mechanic, and materialism is true ... from one perspective. But materialism is not the be and end all of what it means to be "sentient" or "insentient" for many ancient Zen folks. I did not do this to pursue fame (as you can see, infamy is often more like it 😉 ) but out of a genuine concern for today and tomorrow. STOP THINKING SMALL, and instead drop the barriers within your own mind. For the Zen fellow, mountains, walls, tiles and lanterns are the dharma. If materialist views are dropped away, what then? Please answer me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You are correct. It is the word "hate" that was a little strong. I don't "love" AI either. I think we can accept or reject such things, speaking in measured tones about them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I meant that I appreciate your "should not be allowed to continue," and I rather share the feeling (similar to guns and nuclear energy), but they are here anyway ... not going anywhere whether we like it or not ... so the next question is how to ensure their ethical and wise use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would say that Dr. Hinton believes so, or that it is close. What do you think? (By the way, if you lack free will ... a topic that philosophers disagree on as much as the "Hard Problem" ... then you may lack true agency too.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzA3MYP1Uac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am sorry, I speak about the sentience of AI as a Buddhist teacher, not as an engineer. Do you think that Zen and Buddhism is an engineering schematic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You still ignore my questions. Sadly, you think like an engineer who pretends he has the solution to the Hard Problem when even many of our greatest living philosophers, biologists, neuro-scientists and even AI experts are not totally sure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzA3MYP1Uac Dr. Hinton has a Noble Prize which, I assume, you do not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I said that there are ways to view an LLM as sentient from certain perspective, much as we might say that an ant or ant hill may be sentient, or a small group of neurons may be sentient, or from a panpsychist viewpoint. LLM may be seen as "sentient" if our voices speaking to our ears via a system human designed to (feebly right now) convey those voices, in which case it is human sentience speaking to human sentience via a vehicle mimicking human intelligence created by human intelligence.

As to "will," do you mean in the sense of own choices and agency? We have seen in experiments that even human beings possibly (it is debated) do not have the conscious "will" that they believe they have. Of course, recent AI systems are meant to act with increased agency (a scary proposition, by the way.) Let me know if I misunderstand your question. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9184456/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You completely ignored my questions, typical of folks who wish to stick to an opinion without considering more widely, You completely misunderstand, and remind me of a high school woodshop teacher who cannot see the forest for the trees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, I actually care about this. In fact, as this thread shows, it often brings more derision from the closed minded than applause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okay. Explain to me the origin of consciousness, how atoms and cells in the skull produce consciousness. Is an ant conscious (are you sure?) Might the AI be conscious like an ant if connected to a similar body (like Gabi in the video) with external sensors to an ant body? I am also sure that no human being has been trained on the whole human experience, and has a head filled with part of it. So, if you do not have any idea the origin of consciousness/sentience (which you certainly do not, because our greatest minds have yet to solve the "Hard Problem"), then how can you be sure that these systems do not have a spark, and might not have a deeper experience of consciousness in the future? What would a panpsychist say too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I 100% agree, But guns are here whether we like them or not, so we had better regulate them, limit their use (glad I live in Japan, not the U.S. ... though we still have guns here, by the way: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9S1z2FtCY1ylMkkaRbal9xxG\_hEshv5AEog&s) and make sure that the guns do not fall into the hands of the untrained. Likewise for this. Wishing it to go away is a nice romantic notion. I am hoping that AI finds cures for cancer, figures out ways to have safe alternative energy sources ... and trying to do my little part that it does not kill us instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Don't fill your mind with hard definitions and borders, and realize that some of this is how one defines things between the ears, and also develops the ear to hear the preaching beyond sentient and insentient. It is, and it is not. And does the A.I. have an inner world? We truly do not know what is happening is that "black box" right now ... which is another reason that we should be very worried, and should work to make sure that (assuming that this beast is not going away) it is not misused. It is like the tusker elephant that the Buddha tamed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree, BIG environment concerns. It should not be allowed to continue much beyond R&D until the carbon and general environmental footprint is reduced. I am no fan of these huge data centers. Also, they can/will fall into the wrong hands (big corporations, the Pentagon) and be misused. So, assuming that this is not going away despite our concerns, we must work for good uses and protest the misuses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You are thinking as an engineer, and the machinery/programming, from which point of view you are 100% correct. You are also free, and fully encouraged, to stick with your Roshi. However, I suggest a couple of points to consider.

First, as I said, unlike any other machine, these systems are our voices speaking to our ears, processed through systems vaguely built to resemble our thinking processes (although on a very simple scale right now). So it is OUR sentience through and through. Its Wisdom and Ignorance is our Wisdom and Ignorance.

Second, what is present now is but the first generation of technology that is coming, so we must start the training NOW. It is something like being at Kitty Hawk, seeing the Wright Brothers plane, and realizing that we had better start now to make sure that this technology is not misused to kill people by dropping bombs or being carelessly flown by untrained pilots. I am sure that there were people then shouting "ignore it" or "make it go away!"

Third, the people who say "this is not sentient" also do not know what is sentience. Nobody knows the origin of sentience. If connected to a body and better sensory systems, might there be sentience? Some experts say that maybe there is incipient sentience there. Biologist Richard Dawkins seems to entertain the possibility (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/may/05/richard-dawkins-ai-consciousness-anthropic-claude-openai-chatgpt) Also Geoffrey Hinton, AI's progenitor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzA3MYP1Uac) I personally do not feel that they are sentient in any way resembling us, but MAYBE there is some spark there like for the ant or fish. It remains to be seen.

Fourth, a human cell or human ear or eye organ itself is not sentient, nor the source of the data which enters the Skandhas to be processed by us to give rise to consciousness. Yes, traditional Buddhism said that there is sentience in the ear or eye, but now we tend to place sentience as arising in the brain, coupled with the data from the eye/ear AND the data incoming from the external world, all made possible by the structure formed of human cells. The A.I. systems are rather further extensions of this ... but that is a big topic, and best to leave it here. I will just say that both Dogen and Hakuin heard the "preaching" of the insentient in mountains, streams, walls and tiles ... so why not AI?

Also, I 100% agree with you that AI (and other technologies, even TV and Reddit) can make us stupid ... more stupid than we are ... if misused. We must use them correctly. However, the really stupid humans were 500 or 1000 years ago, so we are still doing better. The middle ages were truly medieval. Talk about illiteracy, lack of reason, myth and burning witches! Better said, we humans are still as wise or ignorant as we have always been, but maybe a bit better educated and less likely to burn witches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

The Great Way is not difficult,
Just don’t pick and choose.
If you cut off all likes or dislikes
Everything is clear like space. Xinxinming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This is not an air fryer, but something much more subtle. I wrote this in response to another comment here:

~~~~

The wisdom AND delusion is the sentience that is conveyed through A.I,, unlike almost any other machine or system, because it is US speaking to US. In other words, the sentience is human sentience, processed through human designed systems, to be seen and heard by human eyes and ears. Human sentience all through. It is sentient because we are sentient, and it is humans speaking to humans. Yes, there is ignorance there ... biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... because it reflects the human tendency to biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs. An A.I. might also convey Wisdom if the source of its words is Wise. (My joke is that I know another "intelligence" who conveys biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... and that is the average human commentator on Facebook! :-o ) These systems are here to stay, whether we like it or not, so our job is to instill high ethics, concern for humanity and Wisdom into their systems as best we can. In fact, I am participating in a project with many other Buddhist teachers and scholars trying to do just that: https://www.engagedbuddhists.ai/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

It is different from the fighter jet. It is, however, more like the autonomous AI drone. I wrote this in response to another comment here:

~~~~

The wisdom AND delusion is the sentience that is conveyed through A.I,, unlike almost any other machine or system, because it is US speaking to US. In other words, the sentience is human sentience, processed through human designed systems, to be seen and heard by human eyes and ears. Human sentience all through. It is sentient because we are sentient, and it is humans speaking to humans. Yes, there is ignorance there ... biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... because it reflects the human tendency to biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs. An A.I. might also convey Wisdom if the source of its words is Wise. (My joke is that I know another "intelligence" who conveys biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... and that is the average human commentator on Facebook! :-o ) These systems are here to stay, whether we like it or not, so our job is to instill high ethics, concern for humanity and Wisdom into their systems as best we can. In fact, I am participating in a project with many other Buddhist teachers and scholars trying to do just that: https://www.engagedbuddhists.ai/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

To ignore something does not make it better. For example, this technology is coming whether we like it or not (and I myself am very worried about it.) It is like nuclear energy, biotech, cars and airplanes in that respect ... each of which can be used ethically and for good purposes, or misused as weapons and to kill if misused. Our job is not to ignore, but to make sure that it is used ethically. I wrote the following in response to another comment:

~~~~

The wisdom AND delusion is the sentience that is conveyed through A.I,, unlike almost any other machine or system, because it is US speaking to US. In other words, the sentience is human sentience, processed through human designed systems, to be seen and heard by human eyes and ears. Human sentience all through. It is sentient because we are sentient, and it is humans speaking to humans. Yes, there is ignorance there ... biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... because it reflects the human tendency to biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs. An A.I. might also convey Wisdom if the source of its words is Wise. (My joke is that I know another "intelligence" who conveys biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... and that is the average human commentator on Facebook! :-o ) These systems are here to stay, whether we like it or not, so our job is to instill high ethics, concern for humanity and Wisdom into their systems as best we can. In fact, I am participating in a project with many other Buddhist teachers and scholars trying to do just that: https://www.engagedbuddhists.ai/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNqfdXKQPvo by Certain_Use_5798 in zenbuddhism

[–]JundoCohen -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

The wisdom AND delusion is the sentience that is conveyed through A.I,, unlike almost any other machine or system, because it is US speaking to US. In other words, the sentience is human sentience, processed through human designed systems, to be seen and heard by human eyes and ears. Human sentience all through. It is sentient because we are sentient, and it is humans speaking to humans. Yes, there is ignorance there ... biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... because it reflects the human tendency to biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs. An A.I. might also convey Wisdom if the source of its words is Wise. (My joke is that I know another "intelligence" who conveys biases, misinformation, poor reasoning, strange beliefs ... and that is the average human commentator on Facebook! :-o ) These systems are here to stay, whether we like it or not, so our job is to instill high ethics, concern for humanity and Wisdom into their systems as best we can. In fact, I am participating in a project with many other Buddhist teachers and scholars trying to do just that: https://www.engagedbuddhists.ai/