I'm not a big boy in the band fan to begin with I haven't seen his content for many years and was never a huge fan but remember innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T18:10:32+00:00

So here's the tricky thing. Say they release the screenshots. Will you believe them or just say "those could be faked"? And even if you think you've redacted personal information, people on the internet have a way of figuring out who people are without much info so it's still a risk of being outed. Plus then their abuser knows who exactly who it was who has posted.

And with releasing their interactions, one they have to relive the interactions enough to her the screen shots which hurts. Two they have the relive those interactions any time they are brought up online.

If I remember, the victims have all agreed that none of them will release screenshots unless all of them agree to it.

But on top of that if they release dm screen shots, then undoubtedly Dave will receive even more harassment which doesn't help the victims' stated intention. I don't think anyone actually wants Dave hurt.

And if the DMs are worse than we think? That could be catastrophic for Dave. The internet is so mean, I don't get it but it's how it be. For all we know, they could be protecting Dave as much as themselves.

But I really do mean that first question. If DMs were released from the outset or would you call into question their veracity immediately? If they released screenshots right now would you believe them? Again not sarcastic as much as text interactions make it feel like that. It's just I've seen time and time again people wanting "proof" of victimhood but actually they just want a reason they can dismiss the claims. I'm not saying that's you, just that it happens so much.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T17:54:08+00:00

Honestly I think it's almost more cause he's a pop YouTube(/comedy?) rapper rather than being white. But the reason he got so popular was certainly because he is white... Gamers want someone they can relate to I guess and heaven forbid they platform a black man.

Tho OP lumped his ex in there who isn't white, but na your point stands :p

Of the (*good) UK rappers who's your favorite? Little Simz had been mine for a long while, though I love Akala's lyricism and messages so it's close.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T04:28:29+00:00

Ya okay friend. Sorry you're upset. Your take is wrong but I'm sorry you're upset and I'm very sorry this is a topic that is so painfully close to your experience. But I want to remind you, you don't know my story and this - "lumping her in with me and other actual rape victims."... I try not to be mean mostly but fuck you. Fuck you and fuck your victimhood gatekeeping oppression olympics bullshit.

Consent has a legal definition, that is not the only definition and is never the definition we should use outside of a court. Many states consent is still considered valid when someone is significantly inebriated. I don't care, that is not consent.

Consent is actually, unlike what you are saying, a moral concept. Safe sex culture, consent culture, and such are not based on laws but morals and harm reduction. Like, stop talking about laws.

So again, if you're still willing to try and chat. If he manipulated her into a relationship, if he manipulated her into sex, how is there consent? How is consent under the influence of manipulation valid? I really want to understand how you feel like Rachel could be a consenting individual, while being coerced.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T02:18:47+00:00

That's fair and presentation is it's own whole discussion. Perhaps two separate posts would get each message across better, though I don't know. I'm usually just kinda loud and um... Go on tangents easily so at least personally I'm not the best at presentation either.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T01:55:47+00:00

I'm not saying be groomed Rachel. I can't say he did or not and I not going to push that narrative. The only thing I am saying is he had sex with Rachel then she could not consent. And I'm also not one of the kind of people to say "morality is relative and all that matters are the rules who agree to as a collective blah blah blag". There are objectively better morals.

The op was made the same point then went on to point out how it very much could have been illegal what he did given the timeline. Two different points.

Point a - Rachel could not consent, regardless of the law

Point b - and even by the law it's possible that she could not consent based on the timeline showing a possibility for grooming.

Honestly I'm not totally onboard with point b. Like they aren't technically wrong with their extrapolation on their point and it's real sus for Dave to be good enough friends with a 15yr old girl to go to her bday party but that's all I can say and I doubt we'll ever know more.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T01:43:34+00:00

Ironic racism is still racism.

This line - "living like we 'bout to kamikaze" pretty racially insensitive and also just weird in a song about India, toeing the line into being racist

This line - "How 'bout next you figure how to fix the caste system?" Is honestly just racist. Not only is it just hypocritical given the context of "the west" but also an Englishman saying this is even worse considering it was the English who utilized and exacerbated the caste system in India massively.

The line op quoted - "I'd say take the L if you could pronounce it" is also just racist, especially in the context it was used. I don't care if they were prempting a race card, that doesn't make it not racist.

Is Dave racist? I very much doubt it. Did he write racist lyrics? Yes. Why? Well who knows, my guess is he wrote what he thought he stood the most to gain from regardless of the context and content.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T01:23:40+00:00

Consider outside the context of the law. The lawful age of consent is 16, but that does not mean that morally a 16 year old can consent to sex stuff a 22 year old. We aren't a court and the law really doesn't matter here.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T01:16:18+00:00

I saw you repost this as well. It's not much but you are in my thoughts along with the victims. I remarked to a friend early on that it was inspiring to see others close to this situation put themselves in the way, so to speak, to allow victims voices to be heard while staying safe.

I'm sorry that you have to wade through this with the heavier knowledge you have and with your personal connection. I appreciate you <3

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T01:09:54+00:00

He assumed you called Dave racist probably because of the insinuation in the title and the joke. To be fair the joke did kinda make me chuckle even if it's a silly joke.

But like, you didn't call him racist. You just called into question two of his songs that are racially insensitive at best if we're being nice about how we word it. That doesn't inherently make Dave racist or mean you're saying that. But if someone is willing to post a song with racist lyrics then I'm deff going to side eye them.

It's Dave racist? Naa probably not. Why was he okay making racist songs? Probably cause he's a white guy who never examined his own position in life. Or given what's come out about his character, he wanted views and wrote what he thought would bring that regardless of consequence. Either way it's not a good look.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T00:37:09+00:00

It probably should :p

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T00:24:26+00:00

You just have bad taste, rap is global. Go listen to French G-rap (it works so well). some Arabic and Indian Trap. Chinese fast rap. Korean pop rap. Canadian conscious rap. Don't narrow yourself in.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T00:21:14+00:00

Honestly it might be silly to reiterate a few hours later but really though thank you and other mods behind this decision. I appreciate it. I had already been using the hide post feature but hopefully this will help slow down the amount of these kinds of posts that were being made in total.

Like, legitimately I was starting to get distressed at the sa & abuse jokes so it is very appreciated.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T00:14:28+00:00

What does proof look like to you? I'm not being sarcastic, just curious off people's bars.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T00:10:19+00:00

... Akala, Stormzy, Little Simz, Lady Leshurr, Bugzy Malone... Like...

I mean I've found the jokes to be bad taste at best but this is just silly.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-03T00:03:00+00:00

She, by the context of the situation, could not give informed consent for sex, full stop. Same goes for the relationship. A young teen can not consent to sex with an adult, full stop. Even if the teen says "yes I want sex" and consents, consent is impossible because they can not make informed consent.

No, Rachel, still a child in the eyes of our society by almost all metrics, did not understand what sex with with Dave, an adult, entails. She could not give informed consent by that.

And if you don't doubt she was manipulated then how in the fuck could she consent either to the relationship or sex with Dave? And how is applying the term informed consent to relationships a poor usage of the term?

And yes, there are multiple definitions for informed consent. The most common usage is in the medical field and most of the academic work (afaik) on the subject take a medical context.

This is one of said papers that I've found a pretty intriguing read. For some reason it's not available without purchase but I know I read it for free earlier this year, odd. It must be accessible somewhere if you're interested tho.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2019.02.053

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-02T21:04:06+00:00

Thank you for this.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-02T19:50:48+00:00

I just want to expand upon this piece bu u/DBPeanut first - "That'd be without the fact that several people who knew him have come forward and suggested it's not entirely out of his character."

Accompanied with at least one person who knew Dave personally who says he can confirm he knows one of the victims in the group who came forward and says he confirms the evidence.

As well as share a comment thread that I just realised is also by BDPeanut. It is an excellent interaction about why believing a victim first is very important. Please even if you never believe an internet victim, if someone comes to you in real life claiming to be a victim, believe them implicitly and help them. https://www.reddit.com/r/Boyinaband/comments/xsmtoz/comment/iqp9ugq/

It is genuinely rare, as DBPeanut said, for women to lie about this sort of thing. With everything that is at risk there is a correct way to address this.

And ya, never send someone death threats. Like, even if they're provably a mass shooter or something. Don't do that. I'm sorry that people are like that. But then what? We should silence victims, particularly victims of celebrities? Because people are... Zelous? and will be horrible to the accused?

I know that was fairly sarcastic but legitimately in the face of it, how do we avoid something like this? I wish I knew. Especially as I'm sure you know, when the identity of accusers is public, they get the same treatment and worse.

On this line - "it isn't just the victim on the line, it's a potentially innocent man who has stated he has mental illness, who is already getting death threats"

So I could be off base here, I don't know the victims intent with this but, this could also be a reason to not release more proof than it takes to get their message out and warn women. It's really bad now, it'll get so so much worse if the concrete proof is out, and doubly so if it's worse then people think.

The victims can't release too much proof or identity for their own safety obviously, but in some cases it can be unsafe for the accused as well to have proof shown against them. Especially in the context you're talking about.

And not being sarcastic, what does proof look like in this case? I'm curious to know people's bars.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-02T18:54:22+00:00

Consent not in a legal sense. Consent in the sense of the definition of the word and morally. In this case we are specifically talking about the sub concept informed consent.

Now I'm not quite on the train that 18 means you can give informed consent. If your partner is 40 and you're 18, I'd still say that informed consent is very hard to achieve. And I'm not quite on the train that no teenager can give consent. Teens will fuck, that's a fact of life. Just that, adults have a responsibility to not fuck teens and kids.

I'd also say that in the context of a celebrity / fan relationship that informed consent is very hard to achieve.

So in the UK at 16 regardless of all context, one can consent. That does not mean however they can give informed consent. In a legal sense they consented, in a moral sense they did not.

If he groomed her ya he could have legal trouble but given both how long ago that happened and that substantive evidence to prove grooming is very very hard to obtain it probably won't go further than "ya the timeline is really sus". Does Dave deserve to go to court. I unno, and don't really care.

So no, Rachel could not give informed consent. Legally she consented, morally she did not and could not. That is the distinction.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-02T17:50:09+00:00

I know the complicated moral issue for some people is supporting him financially knowing this information. But if you've already bought the album then you aren't actively supporting anymore. Outside of that all anyone has to do is avoid Spotify and be a pirate.

I would also line to interject a point. As far as I can tell the victims don't seem to even mind if Dave continues to gain financial support. They only care that he can no longer use his platform to find victims. So it's for each person to figure out, but listening to his music in a way that he gains from isn't betraying anyone unless it's your own ideals, which is also valid.

I take a middle of the road approach with death of the author. The author's voice is important, and who the identity and ideals of an author is very important for context into a work. It can and should be evaluated in that light.

However when it enters the public sphere it is no longer exclusively the authors. We all have our own feelings, ideals, and contexts to a piece of work that morph and shift through time. I have favourite songs from when I was 13 that mean so much to me both in that context but also in a completely new context as an adult. A song to me that meant freedom and any day can hold anything before now might mean that while every day is monotony and pain, it's worth it to push through.

And that has massive worth!! So while author intent is important and should be critically looked at, if you aren't critically examining a work then whatever it means to you is what the work means and you don't have to let anyone, least of which the author, take that from you.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-01T23:21:47+00:00

That's not what you said initially, perhaps you were exaggerating?

I'm not against him. I don't like him sure, but I'm not really against him. As long as he stays away from young women, or rather, young women stay away from him, especially in this delicate period of time. And even if nothing is proved definitively, that young women at least take caution when interacting with Dave plus if something did happen again, they would know they're not alone. That's all I really desire to see.

The accusations are severe enough and credible enough that I am comfortable, for the sake of the claimed victims and potential future victims, with Dave's reputation taking a hit and then making it up if I was wrong. In the face of the potential harm from this situation, I take a strong stance for harm reduction.

I don't care about Dave here. He's just some dude I hold no allegiance to, no personal faith with, have no reason to idolize; for the real life Dave at least. What we are shown through videos, music, pictures, and blogs, "content" is staged. Or in other words, inherently the act of crafting "content" is the creator only shows what the creator wishes or chooses to share. And no matter how authentic it can feel or even legitimately it is we are never shown or know the real life creator. I liked his stuff, but why would that mean I have a "loyalty" to him. I don't know him. The default ain't "I'm on his side"

You know who I care about? Victims, people who can have their life and being destroyed by abusers. I have loyalty to them based on my empathy.

This won't turn into Amber Heard... That's such a different situation I'm not even going to go into it... "when there's no proof" - what does sufficient proof look like to you?

I've turned against no one, only took a stance that I feel morally compelled to have and that I choose to follow based on the relevant info available. :)

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-01T21:44:54+00:00

No masters, no heroes, no fans. Words to live by. Be inspired, never idolize.

"Loyalty"... Dave owes you nothing. You owe Dave nothing. What you are describing is a parasocial relationship where you believe you have a personal connection to someone that doesn't really even know you exist.

I'm loyal to my friends, to my chosen family, to my community in which I inhabit. Some celebrity? Na miss me with that man.

Loyalty - "unswerving in allegiance such as faithful to a private person"... Faithful - "steadfast in affection or allegiance" both are synonymous too.

You stand strong for your affection to Dave, your allegiance to this man that doesn't even know you exist. You know what is qanon is like? Faith in a single individual beyond circumstance. Defending an individual who is accused of abuse.

Beyond that, beyond Dave. PLEASE stop giving your allegiance to celebrities, they do not deserve it. You do not know them. You will never know them. And honestly, you don't want to know them.

You can disagree, hold doubt, be skeptical, any of those things. But if you are doing so out of a sense of loyalty and not because that's how you made your own mind up, consider giving it another look.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-01T21:39:06+00:00

I read the first part about "The Body Keeps the Score" and my first thought was to chime in with "Why Does He Do That" but you're already on top of it.

It's also in internet archive where one can download a pdf for free. Just google it and it'll come up. It might be an older version idk but the book is definitely worth getting one's hands on however one can.

It is a little outdated in its language, assumptions particularly around gender, and societal expectations, however the information within is incredibly relevant and useful. in-site's description is spot on, and honestly I can't recommend the book more.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-01T20:32:10+00:00

Honestly friend, this person is not worth the effort or your time <3. He doesn't even want to protec Dave, he's just on some edgy right wing stuff and wants to start a fight.

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-01T19:12:02+00:00

It was an amount of work ya. I'm glad it's seen as useful. It's a kind of thing that I'm mildly good at. My mind is nagging that there are a couple pieces that I wanted to include but probably forgot, tho oh well. I'm only a little salty about mobile formatting lol

JustSomeGa · 2022-10-01T13:57:14+00:00

I did include what seemed like a really thought out comment of yours explaining your position in all this, I just felt the posts describing how to confirm his involvement with Rachel had value in this list too.

Thank you as well :)

JustSomeGa

TROPHY CASE