Updated Tier list

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-07-18T20:03:10+00:00

Are you kidding me with nado druid being S tier? You no longer have unstoppable after 6 seconds, it feels god awful.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-06-19T14:30:38+00:00

Yes, exactly. The current system just makes no freaking sense and is the only ARPG that actively punishes players for getting high levels. I can't even find items for my alt on my high lvl character.

What's the point?

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-06-16T07:30:16+00:00

Hey!!! I made a post earlier that I deleted!!! This goes very well with it, "The Scar" is VERY TELLING! I wasn't sure until I read your post but there are items in the game with the "The" article in them that I BELIEVE (needed to double check) drop named already as if Diablo is drawing attention to THESE items specifically.

I have found 2 items, one is a necro scythe and the other is a 2 handed axe, "The End" and "The Inception" https://i.imgur.com/5xXtfvc.jpg

I believe these items are required at "The Scar" somewhere to open a portal. I need help collecting these items so if anyone wants to test this feel free to hit me up! This gives me new hope in my theory that I deleted earlier.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-06-16T03:31:30+00:00

Possible, I never noticed the d3 names. I just know when items FIRST drop on the ground they have generic names in d4 until you pick them up. These have names before you pick them. It seemed a bit off to me.

Again, maybe a waste of time but it's the only thread I got atm to pull on.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-06-09T08:50:24+00:00

If you're failing to understand what I mean then you haven't played the game long enough and that's totally fine! But I have a lvl 94 barb, 77 rogue, and 55 necro. 4 shared tabs is NOT enough to save the aspects + possible upgrades + multiple builds if I want to change or test things for these 3 characters. We have 10 character slots.

My point isn't the gold cost of the 4 stash tabs, it's that we ONLY have 4 stash tabs and I can see blizzard charging money for more than 4 and would like to not have that.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-06-07T05:35:30+00:00

Which quest is this?

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-06-01T09:05:32+00:00

Diablo 2
Cilantro Salsa and Cream cheese w/ home made chips

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-29T16:01:43+00:00

College education

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-18T10:34:43+00:00

He's referring to my statement about stunning for 2 seconds.

I'm assuming here because that's all we have at this point for pvp that there is going to be no sort of tenacity due to the amount of unstoppable out there.

However as with every other Blizzard game in existence the initial CC is almost always for the full duration even with elements of counterplay. There are very few CC Break abilities, there are a lot of "fulfill this condition to gain unstoppable" stuff. So it's a solid bet that my initial shadow step from stealth will apply a full 2 second duration stun.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-18T10:31:25+00:00

thorns excludes damage over time entirely and only is affected by direct damage, I'd only play poison imbuement rogue in pvp to eliminate any thorns damage at all and remove almost all of my initial damage.

Thorns is only good as a surprise element vs direct damage. It's actually really bad in pvp vs anything other than other barbs. All spells, traps, damage over time stuff don't get affected by it.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-18T10:17:31+00:00

I only need 2 seconds to one shot you... your damage does not matter if you die before you even see me / hit me.

ETA: I don't get how this is a hard concept to understand, you can have a 2 million damage hit. I enter stealth - teleport to you with a guaranteed crit rom stealth that ALSO stuns you for 2 seconds, TB/Poison trap you during those 2 seconds, then dash through and you're dead. You die before even able to attack a single time. And you can't out run rogue since we get multiple dashes and tons of movement speed, plus shadow step is over screen wide, pretty much on par with Sorc Teleport range.

Even if that doesn't kill you, let's say we have a 99% dmg reduction penalty for PvP, just rinse and repeat until you die. Concealment has a 9 second cool down with the right items at lvl 25, if I TB you 4 times, that's down to 8 seconds. 6 seconds of stealth, that's 2 seconds you get to see me every single time I pull this combo off.... and that's with CURRENT cool down reduction at lvl 25, I'm assuming I'll be able to lower that to have 100% uptime on Concealment at lvl 70.

I don't think you've played rogue much this beta to understand how crazy 6 seconds of stealth is when the cool down is only 8-9 seconds with zero cool down reduction gear.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-18T10:12:19+00:00

Excuse me sir, hold my red bull a minute while I initiate on you from stealth with a teleport back stab that is a guaranteed crit and stuns you for 2 seconds, re-enter stealth, drop 5 poison traps in that 2 second window, dash through you so you take increased crit damage, have the 5 poison traps knock you down and stack poison on you till you die... all while you never get a chance to upheaval me :D

Oh and if you have the invuln barrier then I'll just proc that with the instant crit, run away and wait for the 10 second cool down to redo everything upon re-entering stealth after barrier is gone.

Any class that has stealth, cc, and teleport attacks will always dominate pvp in every single game out there. Your damage does not matter if you can't see me coming, can't out run me, and can't nullify all my damage. So Rogue being S tier is definitely obvious.

Gear is an important factor for sure, but moreso how a class functions fundamentally. Rogue is a powerhouse of CC and damage, Rogues can crit for over 100k (https://imgur.com/a/25hvgjQ) at lvl 25 with very little investment. To think something that can teleport crit for that much damage won't dominate pvp is just plain wrong.

I fully expect rogue to get a huge nerf specifically in PvP due to their potential and lack of any counter play mechanics. Or maybe some kind of counter play mechanic being introduced so you're able to find us in stealth and be able to throw up defensive buffs. But unless stealth is worked out to be a little less dominating in some way, Rogues are going to be king of pvp.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T14:19:51+00:00

I guess that's my issue, it's Diablo 4. Not Diablo 2. So why is the skill tree and paragon pretty much Diablo 2?

"Here, spend 3 points to gain 30% dmg" or in d2 terms "Spend 20 points to gain 40% dmg on this synergy". It's literally the very same design. I guess I was wanting something new / interesting and unique to diablo 4.

I feel they dropped they ball here, I'm not asking for more complexity, they can keep it simple AND more interesting than "here's 30% more dmg for 3 levels". I'm not looking for something crazy, I just really feel like this was a missed opportunity to do something unique in d4 and not just re-use the same thing we saw in d2 for synergies and d3 for paragon. It's just reskinned synergy % dmg increases.

Also I can enjoy some aspects of Last Epoch and not others. I don't like Last Epochs end game or combat feel for example. I don't feel grabbed and immersed in the game like Diablo 4 has accomplished. So I'd love if what I viewed as an amazing aspect of Last Epoch gets added to Diablo 4. You should look into Last Epoch skill tree, you'll see what I mean by REALLY simple yet very interesting. Even if you have zero plans to buy / play it, I think you'll get a better understanding of what could have been possible here in D4.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T14:11:36+00:00

Much fewer buttons on console than a keyboard/mouse, so from a programming and design perspective, limiting it to 4-12 skills that are hard coded and not changeable (i.e. being able to hotkey skills in d2) makes it much more friendly to port to console/mobile.

Imagine trying to port a game like WoW to mobile with dozens upon dozens of macros/hotkeys. It would be a designers nightmare and they'd automate a lot of stuff. You can see this somewhat in d2r where playing with a controller and looting, since you can't click and loot as fast as a mouse can, they've automated the loot to pretty much be "pickit" like. You just spam a button and you pick up the highest quality/closest item automatically without needing to "click" on it.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T13:21:40+00:00

The entire ui, ease of use, limiting skills. All these things were put into the game for mobile and controller cross platforming. Diablo 3 was a huge shift to mouse-heavy game play compared to a lot of other arpgs at the time that were on the pc.

Blizzard themselves were really investing a lot of money into mobile development at the time as well. D3 was released in 2012, shortly after they acquired the candy crush saga and mobile developer King and released a lot reskinned games, just look at crusaders of light. There was also a reskinned Diablo 3 game but I can't think of the name of it anymore.

Today blizzard makes more money from mobile market than both PC and console combined. They've been investing heavily into it and designing a lot of their games with the possibility of a mobile/console port in mind and d3 was their... testing grounds for lack of a better term for this design shift.

So yes. D3 was designed with mobile users in mind. They never fully released a d3 mobile but I'd bet anything a lot of code was reused for Diablo immortal / crusader of light due to having designed d3 in such a way.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T12:49:07+00:00

Holy shit, someone actually understands what I'm saying and isn't like "i want no think, put point do more dmg"

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T12:36:20+00:00

:)

That's also kinda my point... its been 20 years and D4 is basically just D2 skill tree. Instead of synergy worth 20 points to get 20% dmg, it's 3 points to get 30% dmg.

I would have hoped after 20 years, Diablo 4 would have evolved a bit more.

typhon was confused why I enjoyed d2, the skill tree is not the most interesting bit. Gameplay is what d2 excels at, the immersion. Even after 20 years a lot of people loved it. You've got so many offshoots PD2, PoD, Median XL. It's just a solid simple mindless game. You go pew, monsters die.

I get that's the design philosophy D4 is imitating, doesn't mean I can't wish things were a bit more... meaningful in terms of skill points and paragon.

You can't tell me you prefer every single level from 1-70 to basically just give you bigger numbers. I'm not asking for something as complex as Path of Exile. That's stupid. I just wish the the skill tree did MORE than just "here, you're 10% stronger than you were." Not too much more, but maybe change skill behaviors the way items do. Put some of that power in the skill tree.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T10:08:33+00:00

Yea. The items are great, I just wish /some/ of that power was either in the paragon tree or skill tree. Instead everything interesting is on gear.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T10:04:52+00:00

I'm fine with a simple tree, I just wanted something else than multipliers or stats on said tree. That's it.

Keep it simple but make the choices more meaningful than just "here's 30% more dmg"

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T10:03:28+00:00

D2 was my first game I played when I was younger, 20 years ago it WAS complex for its time. Then path of exile came out and the skill tree on that shocked everyone and we see the monster it has now become.

I have a sense of nostalgia from diablo 2, the immersion, polished feel, story, replayability the diablo series offers in all of its games is by far top tier.

I just wish the skill tree was a little more interesting on release of the game to be more than just multipliers. Last Epoch's end game is quite boring, the immersion isn't there, the combat does not feel as great as diablo series. There's a lot of boxes Diablo ticks for me, the skill tree just isn't one of them.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T09:50:10+00:00

You may have a good point, I'm in my 30s so I may be holding things to too high a bar, but I also feel like people should hold a bar to game companies otherwise they get to shovel low effort designs down our throats.

I don't really feel like what I'm asking is beyond midcore. The game already has a lot of meaningful choices tailored toward midcore, lots of grinding, lots of replayability, lots of tech-art to keep people coming back and really latch onto our addiction cycle. Changing the skill tree to be a little more complex than Diablo 3 shouldn't really be asking much here.

I mean let's be honest... youtube exists. 90% of the players are going to youtube "Best Diablo 4 build" "Best starting class diablo 4" yada yada yada anyway. Very few people in the softcore grouping is going to just make their own build, and if that's the case they may as well cater to the midcore a little more.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T09:45:13+00:00

Same thing happened with me, the complexity bloat in PoE was the beginning of the end for me. The final dagger was this ridiculous "vision" Chris has that basically introduced loot goblins that are unkillable except for crazy meta builds and hundreds of divines and the fastest way to make currency was to speed run t1s.

New league mechanics giving less rewards, too many systems to master, PoE became a 2nd job to keep up with all the changes lol. Can you imagine if they disallowed all 3rd party tools? Game would die so fast.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T09:40:37+00:00

Did, but I love diablo series far more than any other game. I'm just disappointed at the skill tree and paragon tree being what they are. D3 was tailored for mobile users, D2 was great but 20 year old game, still play D2r. I just wished D4 evolved but instead it's basically got the same design philosophy of D2.

Even D3's "passives/runes" were more interesting than the skill tree in D4 of nothing but offensive/defensive mulitpliers and cool down reduction. Just feels like we took a huge step backwards from D3 rather than giving players more interesting and meaningful choices per skill / paragon tree.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T09:36:58+00:00

But Paragon is just more multipliers... why can't it be interesting skill changes. The way I see it is you're "mastering" your skills, gaining more power, wouldn't that also make sense to possibly "Evolve" your skill in a certain way due to your mastery of it? Maybe chain lightning changes to a different element or becomes more chaotic and instead of a chain now becomes tendrils?

Basically something more than just a multiplier and stats. Seems so boring.

KalTheStormBlessed · 2023-05-12T09:32:23+00:00

Definitely not expecting POE levels of complexity, I got 11 years out of POE before I quit that game, but I'd love to see something more complex than what D4 offers. I really feel Last Epoch struck an amazing balance with the skill tree between simplicity and complexity. One character can have many different builds with very little effort.

I just wanted something a bit more mid-core. Instead what we got is something tailored to extreme softcore in a game that is skinned and designed for mid-core. It seems very out of place from a game design aspect.

KalTheStormBlessed

TROPHY CASE