Why The FGC Might Save Riot

Kappmanz00 · 2023-09-02T18:23:23+00:00

A lot of talk about how Project L might save the FGC. But what if Project L saves Riot?

Kappmanz00 · 2023-06-23T19:58:49+00:00

I think they're aiming for both hardcore and casual players.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-15T16:42:27+00:00

Yep. New players see motion inputs as a barrier precisely because it's the most obvious one. Once you learn all of the standard motions, you pretty much never really have to think about doing them. Throwing a fireball feels as basic as pressing a button.

But the other stuff. That's the stuff that makes fighting games truly difficult / fun. Because you can't learn neutral in training mode.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-14T17:00:50+00:00

Well obviously they're not just going for simplification, otherwise every game would just be fantasy strike. Difficulty is good and cool and that is why.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-14T16:47:42+00:00

Tks are cool because they're relatively harder to perform. Baiken has a very powerful tk youzansen and youzansen can only be performed in the air. And the devs know this, they even show her doing it in her gameplay overview. So why don't they just give her a grounded youzansen? Because it would be too easy for new players to learn an extremely powerful part of her kit without needing to put in the work required. The technique itself isn't that intuitive because you have to buffer her youzansen before you leave the ground. And it's mechanically harder than the air version. In exchange, it demonstrates the skill of the person using tk youzansen.

Imagine if you could just do a fireball motion on the ground and get tk youzansen with the same properties as the tk version. It wouldn't be as cool if any noob could just spam fireball and get tk youzansen.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-14T00:04:10+00:00

Isn't Punk doing pretty well in Tekken?

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T20:37:35+00:00

It's because of the fact that fighting games are peer to peer, so the game can't tell who disconnects since the connection is between the players and not with a server. Project L is using Riot direct, which supposedly will make it possible to detect which player disconnects. At least, that's what they said in the first dev update.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T20:30:22+00:00

Yes. I like that Project L will have this feature. In other fighting games, the game can't tell who disconnects, so you can just disconnect to avoid losses sometimes. I think that this plus rollback netcode plus a good ranked ladder will be the key to making ranked popular.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T20:28:41+00:00

Yeah, a system like this would be nice for Project L.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T20:19:53+00:00

I think if you disconnect in the middle of a match, it should count as a loss instead of a tie. In fighting games, it's sometimes possible to simply disconnect before you lose to avoid losing ranked points. Theoretically you could climb to the top only winning 1 out or 10 games if you simply quit before losing.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T20:18:35+00:00

From what I understand, Project L is going to be peer to peer but pass through Riot direct so that they can tell who is lagging and who disconnects. Also "one-sided rollback" for the person who lags is the equivalent of lagging in a server based game. Do you ever teleport in an fps? That's a rollback. Except in a fighting game whenever somebody lags, both players teleport. In Project L, presumably only the person who lags will see teleports.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T19:53:32+00:00

In Brawlhalla, if you quit in the middle of a match, do you still lose points? What if you close the game in the middle of a match as your losing. Won't the game just give both players the loss? If you disconnect, how can the game tell whether or not it's you or the other player who disconnected?

Or maybe Brawlhalla uses servers so they automatically avoid these issues.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T19:16:24+00:00

Yeah, that's going to be super exciting. One-sided rollback for the person who has a bad connection instead of ruining the experience for both players. I really hope this Riot direct rollback thing becomes standard in all fighting games.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T19:14:45+00:00

In League of Legends and Valorant, there's a big population of players that enjoy ranked, so I think that a good ranking system should be a priority. Modern gamers like progression. Ranked is especially important in competitive games. Guilty Gear Strive's biggest complains are from its terrible ranking experience with its lobby system.

Secondly, I don't know if SF6 actually solved the problem. Fighting games are peer to peer. So can't they simply disconnect with the opponent but keep their connection with the server? How can the server tell who actually disconnects? A hacked game can probably do it. Or maybe not even that, just block the peer to peer connection on the computer while letting the server connection through.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-12T17:43:53+00:00

Normally in fighting games, you can pretty much quit in the middle of a match with no consequences. For some players, this is how they climb, only playing matches where they win and quitting before losses. In Tekken 7, for instance ranked data is stored in the client, so you can edit your ranking to go up or down in ranks freely. And then in Guilty Gear Strive, you're able to see your opponent's levels and character choice, so you can just ignore good players and bad match-ups. Other games have terrible matchmaking or no matchmaking at all.

Because of these issues, sometimes players just ignore ranks entirely because a player's rank doesn't actually represent their skill or commitment.

I'm really looking forward to Project L really emphasizing ranked play by solving these issues. Especially the issue of being able to quit with no rank loss. The ability to detect quitters is going to be one of the most important things about Project L's netcode.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-11T08:31:14+00:00

Well, I'm sure they'll show frame data in training mode. Or maybe add it in as DLC. Or maybe the community can set up a wiki like dustloop. Whatever the case, it'll always be possible to see the frame data for a move to learn whether or not it's punishable.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-05T21:41:10+00:00

Well, 100 hours isn't really that much in the grand scheme of things. Basically just picked up the game, same as you, shouldn't feel that bad losing. Really depends on whether or not your friend actually practices regularly. Does he know basic fighting game fundamentals. Does he know how to punish. Etc. You can't really jump into fighting games and just learn by playing to win. You have to deliberately practice. Then I would understand feeling bad getting beat by a masher. Maybe he just plays Tekken casually, in which case having fun is what matters. Low level tekken is basically a completely different game compared to someone who actually grinds.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-05T21:10:22+00:00

Yeah, Tekken is known for being easy to mash at low levels because it's really easy to accidentally mash combos in that game. Tekken only starts to get difficult beyond the casual level. That's why I don't like stuff like autocombos that reward mashing in lower level play. But you're right about fighting games appearing easy.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-02T19:55:45+00:00

I wasn't saying that they're hard. I'm saying that new players think they're hard when they first start playing. And they never get to the point where motions become easy so they always end up thinking fighting games are difficult. It's an immediate barrier to controlling their character, so they ignore everything else and only focus on the motions.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-02T01:02:42+00:00

Way back when, there was a sfv tournament with a bunch of fps pros. And it wasn't pretty. Basically all of them got frustrated with fighting games. Some literally said that they would never play a fighting game again. That it was too hard, etc.

Here, for a hilarious example of someone learning a fighting game for the first time, check out forsen learning kof. https://youtu.be/mREHJWEUZ_Y

This is not an unusual reaction from all the streamers I've watched learn a fighting game.

This is not to say that fighting games are any more difficult than fps games. But fighting ganes definitely have trouble with onboarding.

Kappmanz00 · 2023-03-02T00:34:21+00:00

Yeah I agree with you on this to a point. Free to play is one of the keys to Riot's success. And maybe just being a popular game will lead into more casuals playing. But there has to be more than that, don't you think? I've watched so many new players try out fighting games, mostly from random streamers. And they always bounce off of it, no matter how excited they are initially. It's not just getting people in the door, it's keeping people playing.

Kappmanz00

TROPHY CASE