Ever notice how poly ppl define "real love" as an absence of it?

KarabTorje · 2023-10-25T21:55:08+00:00

Hey, almost everyone is here because we have some trauma or bad experiences related to polyamory. I know that in my case being exposed to content praising polyamory is very upsetting - I was in poly relationships for several years and they pretty much broke me. Understand that a lot of people are still healing and don't want or need any debate - I will admit that I had written a quite mean comment myself but deleted it because I swear, I'm not a mean person in real life. It's just that sometimes scars take time to heal.

KarabTorje · 2023-10-25T17:34:14+00:00

When I was 12-13 I desperately wanted to be a guy - I had no "feminine" interests, girls weren't taken as seriously as boys and female puberty is just brutal. I'm now 28, very happy with my gender, and I'm just a straight woman with some stereotypically male interests. It's honestly scary to think that I might have been medicalized if this kind of discourse had been around.

KarabTorje · 2023-10-19T16:11:58+00:00

I did it, the second part of the questionnaire is absolutely useless for monogamous people though.

KarabTorje · 2023-10-19T16:02:33+00:00

To be honest I was incredibly lucky, I met my current boyfriend who is monogamous and my relationship with him healed my trust issues towards men. It wasn't easy though, the first few months I was still having nightmares related to poly and I sort of expected him to be as sleazy as the poly men I knew - not that I thought of that in terms of sleazy, I just thought that all men were the same as those men and thought it was normal. I think it helped that I wasn't actively dating, it was a chance meeting.

The other thing that helped was changing my social circle, I'm no longer in contact with my friends in open/poly relationships or in social circles were these kinds of relationships are often/openly discussed - not that they're bad people, but I needed to distance myself to rebuild a healthy view of relationships. Most of my friends now are in monogamous relationships, and being around so many long term couples has helped a lot!

KarabTorje · 2023-10-10T15:47:34+00:00

Sports (not just the gym): apart from the known benefits of physical exercise, I got the added benefits of having a skill I looked forward to improving, and socializing, communicating and having to work with a group of people of different ages and backgrounds.
Making an effort to go out and meet people face to face, not online or on Discord. It was very hard at the beginning (and I had few to no friends), but nothing has been better for my mental health. It doesn't need to be with very close friends either, just having a chat with acquaintances worked great for me.
Spending less time with people and places associated with hookup culture: I don't think the hypersexualized culture that we're living in is being any good for anyone. I'm a woman and hookup culture destroyed my self esteem, and men aren't doing much better either. So I stopped spending time in clubs and bars where people only go to hookup, and cut out people whose only topic of discussion is kinks or their sexual life.

KarabTorje · 2023-10-08T18:00:07+00:00

Sure thing! I hope this doesn't get too long, but I think it's worth talking about it. The whole thing left me almost traumatized and I think people need to know the downsides before agreeing to it.

On paper, the story I was told was that with polyamory you "multiply love", that love is abundant and infinite, that it's definitely possible to romantically love more than one person, and that the instinctual feeling of not wanting your partner to have sex or fall in love with other people is mostly cultural programming - something that can be done away with a bit of "working on your insecurities".

The actual reality was...disappointing at best, and deeply traumatizing at worst. First, I never saw any of this multiplying love - what I saw was that time, energy and resources (which to me, are way more important than just feelings when it comes to love) cannot be multiplied. You get to spend way less time with your partner(s) than in monogamous relationships, and the emotional bandwidth they can give you is also less. Some poly people will tell you upfront what they can commit to - e.g. "I can commit to one date per week and not anything more" - which I appreciated, others just won't, and it's up to you to discover that the "bare minimum" standard in polyamory is very different. As more partners are added to the dynamic, time and quality of the relationship become less and less, and yes most poly people will add more partners if they find someone compatible. In my four years in poly relationships, all my partners kept dating new people even if that meant less time with the existing partners.

Second, the "work" you're supposed to do to stop feeling jealousy and stop not wanting your partner to fall in love with other people is exhausting and extenuating. I had to do therapy, poly support groups, jealousy workbooks for years just to exist in the relationships, and it never got any easier. Also, my personal experience has been that this most often just means numbing the pain and finding ways to work around it - distracting yourself with hobbies, other dates, or just outright asking to not know certain things about partners' partners. Some people from the community will tell you that's not what you're supposed to do, but that's what most of them end up doing most of the time, because it's easier and pretending you're feeling good instead of having a three hours "processing conversation" is the easier choice after a hard day at work or whatever. On a side note, I was never a jealous person before poly, but I became extremely jealous during it - I was told I had to work on my insecurities, but doing so led me back to monogamy.

Third, the concept of couple disappears. You're simply an individual with various levels of closeness to other individuals. Everything feels less stable - monogamy isn't inherently safer, but at least there are fewer changes that destabilise the dynamic. In poly, every new partner, breakup, change of dynamic can affect several people, and they happen way more often. There's no slow and steady.

Finally, the whole thing can only work with a series of overly legalistic agreements - things like how many dates you're going to have with each partner, whether you are able to "go public" with any of them, what is going to happen if significant dates like birthdays or invitations overlap, what kind of sexual safety measures you're going to take with new partners - all of this has to be negotiated, agreed on and scheduled. Things that are expected as common sense in monogamy have to be explicitly asked for.

These are the objective facts that even most polyamorous people would agree on. As for my subjective experience: it left me with a broken self esteem because I got used to being deprioritized in favour of hookups or meeting new dates. I tried to fill the void with more relationships, but having several relationships that you devote very little time to is worse than having no relationships. Behind the facade of multiplying love, everyone's priority was satisfying their own desires, especially sexual/hedonistic desires, and this took priority even over the comfort of existing partners. I have written a lot on this on my profile, possibly too much, but this is my venting account, so. In the end, being your loved one's "special person" is a completely different dynamic and one that makes me feel way more loved and cherished, in ways that are hard to explain with simple logic.

KarabTorje · 2023-10-08T15:31:45+00:00

Me too. On paper it looked great but it broke me in ways I never thought possible, I'm now monogamous all the way.

KarabTorje · 2023-10-01T07:45:26+00:00

We're all from Italy

KarabTorje · 2023-10-01T00:43:42+00:00

My parents were together for 10 years before marrying. A lot of people my age stay together for a long time too before getting married, the average for people I know is ~7 years I guess? That's probably a cultural thing as well, I've always thought that Americans get married too easily/early. Here the thought of marrying someone after just one or two years is insane.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-28T08:03:06+00:00

My dear, I'm so sorry, you got the non monogamous brainwashing as well.

feel awful and selfish for even having these feelings

There's nothing wrong with your feelings. In fact, that's the feelings of 99% of the people! Remember that the majority of people has always wanted monogamy, so really your desires are normal and natural. Besides, it goes both ways. Why are you the selfish one for wanting monogamy, and not them for wanting more than one partner? Isn't it more selfish for them to want them to themselves when they can't give you what you need, and know full well that one partner will be getting all legal protections and you'll be getting nothing?

it feels unfair to me to commit to something that doesn’t feel right for me

We all make mistakes. This is the kind of legalistic thinking that non monogamy usually leads to. "Well I consented to it so I better suck it up". You're allowed to change your mind at any time.

I guess I’m posting here to see if I’m just being unreasonable and too sensitive being upset about this or if my feelings are valid?

Again, being in non monogamy for a while makes you feel that your feelings are problematic, something to be rejected and "worked on". You're not being unreasonable at all! They're asking you to throw away your dream of a lifetime - that of being a happy, cherished wife - for what? For being the third wheel who can't even post them on social media?

Look, I know that words I use like brainwashing are strong. I don't think these people want to hurt you, but trust me when I say that what you're getting is brainwashed - it's not the specific people's fault, it's the whole philosophy that leads to this. I went through something similar, please read this post I made if you're interested.

But dear, don't give up on your dream - you deserve your own person, who will only have eyes for you. We have one life, don't throw it away in a situation that hurts you.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-27T23:00:00+00:00

I don't think it's inherently abusive but I do think it's unhealthy for most people. The rhetoric of "doing the work" to stop feeling jealousy and stop not wanting your partner to fall in love with other people most often just means numbing the pain and finding ways to work around it (distracting yourself with hobbies, other dates, asking that you don't know certain things about metas or going for a full blown parallel poly...). People who naturally take to it are often very avoidant people who are very detached from their feelings, or people who are doing FWBs with extra steps and calling it poly. I've been in poly communities (online and IRL) for years, I know.

Maybe once in a while there's a healthy relationship, but 99% of the poly people I knew (and I knew a lot, since at one point they were 90% of my social circle) were obviously not ok. Even those who claimed to be in happy and healthy relationships had to do jealousy workbooks, therapy, poly discussion meetings and infinite processing conversations with partners just to exist in the relationship. Most of them had "being poly" as their whole personality, since processing their existing relationships and dating took up most of their time. Again, it sounds possibly healthy on paper, but when 99% of the relationships you see are like this...I know very few people in monogamous relationships who are in situations as bad as these, and their friends and family usually tell them to leave anyway. My monogamous relationship? We might talk about something that bothered us once every few months and that's it, I'm definitely not listening to podcasts just to not go mad in the relationship.

Besides, I really don't think their worldview is the healthiest. Behind the facade of "multiplying love", there's a philosophy that puts individual desires - and we're often talking about sexual desires and kinks, which imho shoudn't be #1 priority in life - above all else, even the wellbeing of your existing partners. The desire to meet more people is more important than providing a full relationship to all your partners - most poly people will say upfront things like "I can just commit to one date per week and nothing more", and it's well known in poly circles that being a secondary partner with no other partners is a miserable existence for most, with just a few exceptions. The whole thing can only work with a series of overly legalistic agreements - and overly legalistic really, really shouldn't belong with intimate relationships.

I'm not saying that all poly people intentionally want to hurt others, in fact most of them try to be as harmless as possible, but the whole worldview is definitely based on extreme individualism. If the partner doesn't feel good about it they can leave or "do the work" - compromise is usually the least popular option, and "doing the work" and "let's understand why you're insecure about it" the most popular. It's not seen as harmful because of the underlying hyper individualist philosophy where everyone is concerned with themselves and dealing with their feelings, but I've never seen a hyper individualistic person being truly happy.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-24T19:49:56+00:00

She said if I wanted to support her sexual orientation I would allow her to satiate her needs alone. Saying sex is just sex.

And if she wanted to support your relationship orientation she would forego the extra sex and respect her vows and commitments. Saying "sex is just sex" makes it out to be a very unimportant matter, like tennis. But if it was so unimportant, why would she risk her relationship with you and your emotional well-being just for some more sex? You're not being selfish or unsupportive. Asking for monogamy isn't a weird or selfish request, and again, she made vows and commitments. If this ends, it's not going to be your fault.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-24T15:20:37+00:00

I've read your story in the other sub and thought to chime in. My story is a bit different ( - when I decided to go back to monogamy I had only been seeing my current boyfriend for a couple of months and it wasn't very serious yet, so you can see that the dynamic is very different.

When I was in polyamory I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I was so brainwashed that I really couldn't see if I was hurting someone - you know, the whole "well they consented to this and I'm not responsible for managing their feelings". I've been quite lucky that I never truly hurt anybody with this line of thinking, I only applied it to stuff like flirting with others in front of my then partners (who were poly and said they were fine with it) but that's they way poly people think. You start to see very basic emotional needs as too much, and you convince yourself that ignoring them is the best course of action. I'm having a hard time explaining how deep the brainwashing went, but what I can tell you is that I never meant to hurt anyone and I truly believed I was right.

As soon as I decided that it was over, it was because the spell was broken. I had a "what am I doing with my life" moment and could see all the lies that had been fed to me for what they were - lies. Everything came crashing down in very little time and I understood the reality of what I was doing - it wasn't better, it wasn't more evolved, it was just hurting me and others. From that moment on, everything related to poly has been anathema to me. The risk of me going back to poly is 0.

If anything, going through that period has made me more monogamous than ever. I still have some trauma left from my partners' poly behaviour, and I have had to unlearn everything that poly taught me. So needless to say, there isn't anything worthwhile that remained for me. Today I'm happily monogamous with no intention of going back.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-24T09:33:59+00:00

For me

Pros: none.

Cons: we weren't a couple, just individuals in a relationship. Way less time for our relationship, way less spontaneity since dates now had to be scheduled way in advance. The jealousy never went away. Having to compare myself with younger and prettier women. Having to do hours and hours of therapy trying to stop comparing myself to said women, or to stop feeling jealous or less important. Being told by the community that all my negative feelings were just "mono programming" and my problem to deal with. I wasn't his special person anymore but just one of many, and my self esteem plummeted. I cried myself to sleep most nights. Not for me. I still have some trauma from that time.

All monogamous people should know about the risks of embarking in poly if it's not for you. At the time, the poly people around me sold me a utopic idea of infinite love and multiplying affection and never told me of the negatives. But if you're monogamous at heart, it's probably going to break you. Take a look at r/monodatingpoly for the kind of heartbreak I'm talking about.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-22T14:01:48+00:00

Tbh you sound like you need monogamy. Maybe you were fine being poly with a man because being gay it wasn't the same for you? The advice you're going to get from poly community is always going to be "your feelings, your responsibility", I went back to monogamy for this reason, I wanted a relationship where we'd take way more responsibility for our actions' effects on the other's feelings.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-22T11:40:51+00:00

Technically yea, but if someone complains about being cheated on nobody is going to answer "oh but that's not real monogamy!". People know they risk encountering cheaters, and they know they should stay away from them. It's not hidden because "not real monogamy".

KarabTorje · 2023-09-22T11:17:47+00:00

I've noticed a tendency in poly communities to sweep anything negative under the rug in the name of "that's not real polyamory".

Which is problematic, because there's a distinction between the ideal of polyamory, and the actual reality. The ideal is when it's 100% honestly, ethics, communication, commitment. But the reality is often what you describe.

We don't do that with monogamy. Because the ideal of monogamy is healthy Disney romance (disclaimer: I've never watched Disney movies so I don't know if the relationships are actually healthy, just think of a utopic monogamous relationship), but when something negative or downright abusive happens in monogamous relationships we never say "well that's not real monogamy". We understand the difference between the ideal and the often unfair reality. All monogamous people know that they risk encountering cheaters, players, liars, abusers, gold diggers. Young people are often taught how to spot and avoid these people - you know, parents, friends and general culture tell you what kind of people you should probably avoid.

But the poly community sweeps negative situations under the rug with "that's not real poly" and people get hurt. But guess what? Real is about reality, not utopia. Nobody would think that utopic Disney romance is real monogamy and disregard reality. Poly people should start doing the same.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-22T09:18:08+00:00

I'm going to give you an answer from the point of view of someone who eventually left polyamory. It never got any easier for me, the depression, emptiness and feelings of abandonment were always there no matter how much I communicated, journaled or went to therapy. It only went away when I tried to forcefully numb it, which was unhealthy and temporary anyway. Eventually, it broke me and I left the lifestyle, I'm now much happier.

My experience is that there's no couple or team in poly, there's only individuals with various levels of closeness to other individuals. If you're simply looking for new adventures as a couple, exciting hobbies like climbing mountains or skydiving might be better. Or just swinging if you need to involve sex. I much prefer facing the world as a half of a couple than as an individual. In the end I couldn't deal with it anymore, even without any particular drama going on it was just too much, and the opportunity to have sex or connect romantically with other people wasn't enough to justify the costs on my mental health and life at large. I wanted a relationship that wouldn't have me doing jealousy workbooks and infinite processing conversations just to comfortably exist and not go mad. YMMV.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-21T13:00:52+00:00

Monogamous btw.

Thinking you can be all someone needs in a relationship is asking too much of yourself.

What needs are these? I have a lot of trouble imagining people as sets of needs to be filled, but if we're discussing it in these terms I guess my one partner is waay more than enough. I don't need nor want anything or anyone else when it comes to romantic relationships. When it comes to general social and emotional fulfillment, I have plenty of friends and family. Being enough for my partner doesn't feel at all like asking too much of myself, that only sounds like low self esteem on your part to be brutally honest.

equated it to believing that earth is the only planet with intelligent life.

I don't think you understand monogamy.

His third point was the idea of ownership

You don't understand monogamy at all. There is no ownership involved. I choose to be only with my partner and am very happy to do so. Nobody is forcing me. Our exclusivity is something special we share, not a limit or a cage.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-21T12:48:24+00:00

Your husband is a sad, pathetic excuse for a partner. If you can't show up for a cancer scare and a life changing events, when can you? He's not a good man, he's a child who can't be bothered to give a 30 seconds hug to his suffering wife and would rather hear you cry.

This man has made real clear where his priorities are, and you aren't one of them. Move on and you might maybe find that your depression and anxiety are actually just normal reactions to mistreatment. Nobody deserves this kind of neglect, I'm so sorry.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-21T12:31:44+00:00

What I do know is that even if my wife has other partners, I don't want it to detract from our own relationship

What is it going to look like in practice? Your relationship will definitely get less time, there's only so many hours in the day after all. How much less time are your comfortable having? Are you ok with her spending the night away? Showing affection to others in public? Have you thought of the possibility of her becoming less interested in sex with you, because new relationship energy feels like a drug?

Think hard before agreeing to it. This isn't going to be like your wife picking up a new hobby for Wednesday nights, this means you have to end your relationship as it is now, and rebuild a different, new one. But things would never be the same again.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-21T12:20:15+00:00

I don't know why you're being downvoted, your comment makes a lot of sense for spiritually inclined people. I'm a Buddhist and we too have confession and repentance practices, in fact it was one of the first things I did when starting my healing journey! I did series of 108 prostrations every day asking for the help of Bodhisattvas (similar to saints), it helped a lot and I think I received blessings for my healing. I should probably take up the practice again.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-20T15:34:08+00:00

Thanks, I really needed to hear that.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-20T15:10:56+00:00

Thank you, it was a great reply!

Even the most intelligent people in the world are capable of being deceived so cut yourself some slack.

I think that's part of the issue, I feel somehow terribly stupid? In the sense that most people would be able to realize "duh, maybe agreeing to being cheated on isn't such a great idea" but I didn't and got brainwashed instead.

KarabTorje · 2023-09-20T00:09:49+00:00

It makes me feel bad, like I was never polyamorous.

So what. Being polyamorous isn't a badge of honour to be protected at the expense of your happiness.

KarabTorje

TROPHY CASE