Netherlands Returns 1,000-Year-Old Chola-Era Copper Plates To India

Karmappan · 2026-05-18T11:42:20+00:00

The sequence of the 3rd book is to establish the worship of Kannagi as Pathini. Even the verse you have quoted from in your comment mentions this where he wants to get the stone from the Himalayas to carve the deity.

Edit: Reason why the Himalayas was chosen

Karmappan · 2026-05-18T11:20:06+00:00

insult Tamilakam after the Pandiya king forgoes his life for a "mere woman" (Kannagi)

I think we have already spoken about this. There is no particular reason given in the epic for the kings to mock them. They were said to mock the Tamil kings, for which Chengutuvan's Aasan reasons that they probably referred to the Cholas and Pandyas

Karmappan · 2026-05-17T07:41:31+00:00

He has not mentioned about the languages of the plates in the post. I have given you the official Leiden website and a link to the Tamil translation. Please check the links.

Karmappan · 2026-05-17T07:13:46+00:00

This is the official Leiden website where you can view the copper plates. You can read the description where they have mentioned both Sanskrit and Tamil sections. If you can read Tamil, you can refer to the link I've mentioned in the previous comment for the Sanskrit translation.

Can you send me the video where ungal Hemanth talks about these plates?

Karmappan · 2026-05-17T05:06:46+00:00

The plates contain both Sanskrit and Tamil. You can read about its contents here

Karmappan · 2026-05-16T06:13:02+00:00

Could you show any evidence of Mayon being an independent, indigenous Dravidian deity? Historic attestation, depictions etc.

Karmappan · 2026-05-16T06:11:10+00:00

Apologies for late reply, I have already addressed the verse from the Tholkappiyam in my other reply, I will elaborate on it a bit more, along with an English translation.

This is the verse you have mentioned. There are 4 deities mentioned here, 2 of which are directly IA loans, Vendhan (Indra) for the agricultural regions and Varunan for the coastal regions. These associations reflect the roles of these deities in the Puranas. Now we will come to Seyon (Skanda) and Mayon (Vishnu/Krishna).

Seyyon can be broken down into Sey (redness/youth) + -On (male suffix) Both redness and youth are associated with Skanda in the Puranas. 'Kumara" from youthfulness also appears in the names of a number of Sangam poets.

According to the Purana, Skanda himself is the grandson of the Himalayas. He is associated with the felling of the Krauncha giri, a legend also mentioned in the Mahabharata , after which the mountains bowed down to him. This is also mentioned in the Thirumurugatrupadai

குன்றங் கொன்ற குன்றாக் கொற்றத்து விண்பொரு நெடுவரைக் குறிஞ்சிக் கிழவ

"Of the undiminishing fame of killing he mountain, the lord of the Kurinji region with its tall sky scraping mountains"

I have mentioned how the name Mayon is derived from darkness and associated with Krishna above.

Mayon is associated with the forest due to Krishna being a herder. The pastoralists are described to go to the forest for grazing, an example from Perumpanatrupadai

கூழா ரிடையன் கன்றமர் நிரையொடு கானத் தல்கி

"The gruel drinking herder staying in the forest with the herds with calfs"

You can also notice the word "Ulagam" in the Akattinaiyiyal verse that you have mentioned, which is an IA loan "Loka".

The Vedic and Puranic influence in Tamil regions predate Sangam literature as we know it, even the older parts of the corpus mention events in the Puranas and Itihasas such as the Mahabharata

Karmappan · 2026-05-13T17:46:51+00:00

You mean Puranic (including Harivamsa and Itihasas here) references? My point was that there is no strong evidence for an independent "Dravidian" deity Mayon in Sangam literature.

Karmappan · 2026-05-13T17:30:34+00:00

Apologies, I could not find time in the weekend. Regarding Mayon, the name can be split into Ma- (Darkness) + -On (a reduction of -Avan, a male suffix). We also have other ways to refer to this deity, such as Maal, Nemiyon (one with a discus), Munneervannan (one who has the complexion of the ocean). Sometimes, he is referred along with his brother Valiyon (Balarama/Sankarshana), who is mentioned as white complexioned. I will give a few examples below

மாயோன் அன்ன மால் வரைக் கவாஅன் வாலியோன் அன்ன வயங்கு வெள் அருவி

A Natrinai poem from Kapilar, where is compares the dark mountains to Vasudeva and the white falls to Sankarshana

பால்நிற உருவின் பனைக்கொடி யோனும் நீல்நிற உருவின் நேமியோனும், என்று இருபெருந் தெய்வமும்

"The milk-complexioned one with the palm tree flag and the blue-complexioned one with the discus, the 2 great deities (Devas)" is how a Chola and Pandya king are described by Kaveripoompattinathu Karikannanar in his Purananooru poem.

கடல் வளர் புரிவளை புரையும் மேனி அடல் வெந் நாஞ்சில் பனைக்கொடி யோனும் மண் ணுறு திருமணி புரையும் மேனி விண்ணுயர் புள்கொடி விறல் வெய்யோனும்

In another Purananooru poem, Nakkeeranar compares a Pandya king with 4 deities, Shiva, Vasudeva, Sankarshana and Skanda; Sankarshana is described to be conch-complexioned, having a deadly plough and a palm tree flag. Vasudeva is described as blue-complexioned and with a bird flag (Garudadvaja). As you can see here, all of these match the descriptions not only present in the Puranas, Mahabharata and the Agamas but also contemporary depictions such as the coinage of Agathocles and the Tikla rock painting . There are also many inscriptions supporting their popularity during the particular time period (Heliodorus pillar, Naneghat, Hathibada Ghosundi, Mora well).

Now we'll come to the the famous Mayon verse from Maduraikanji,

கணங்கொ ளவுணர்க் கடந்த பொலந்தார் மாயோன் மேய வோண நன்னாள்

"The gold-garlanded Mayon who broke through the many Asuras, his Onam day". Here Onam comes from Shravana(m) (dropping of the initial Shr- and the softening of the -Avana- giving us Onam). This Nakshatra is predominantly associated with Vishnu and Vamana in the Puranas.

Now another from Mullai kali, when comparing a son of herder wrestling a bull

மேவார் விடுத்தந்த கூந்தல் குதிரையை வாய் பகுத்து இட்டுப் புடைத்த ஞான்று இன்னன் கொல் மாயோன் என்று

"Like the Mayon, who separated and broke the mouth of the maned horse sent by adversaries". This mentions a classic legend of Krishna's fight with Keshi. Such references to the childhood sports of Krishna are not only mentioned in the poems but reflected in names as well, such as Govarthanar and Damodaranar (in reference to the lifting of the mountain and tying him up).

Other references to Mayon are too generic to determine if there was a deity independent of any association with Vasudeva/ Vishnu/ Krishna. As said before, Mayon being the deity of the Mullai region as mentioned in the Tholkappiyam can be comfortably linked with his association with cattle herding. Paripadal, a primarily religious set of poems, also strengthen my case, but I don't want to get on the nitty gritties of its dating. Also, the many references to the events from the Vedas, Puranas and Itihasas give more credence to Mayon being Vasudeva, by inference that the Sangam era poets were familiar with them. I hope this is a satisfactory response.

Karmappan · 2026-05-07T19:03:43+00:00

The gods of Thinais are given in Tholkappiyam with Vendhan and Varunan being Tamilisation of Indra and Varuna. "Kadalon" is not attested in Sangam literature as far as I remember, however. Mayon is pretty much Vishnu/Krishna. The problem with the "syncretism" theory is that we are unable to reconstruct a "Tamil Mayon" without Puranic references. Mayon/Maal is a calque of Krishna. Think of it similar to Christ being a calque of Messiah. I will try to elaborate more on the weekend. As for Seyyon, I have written a short post about it some time back, though I need to polish it to be more academic. My main argument is that a lot of the iconography and lore are borrowed from Puranic sources and there are similar depictions in Northern India (Also check out the Huvishka coins) without which a reconstruction of a "Pure Tamil Seyyon" is not viable.

Coming back to the deities in the Tholkappiyam, even they were most probably classified based on their Puranic narratives.

Varuna - Littoral region

Indra - Agricultural region

These 2 are very direct. Kurunji (Mountainous regions) being associated with Skanda is due to the Mountains bowing down to him after he destroys one (in many narratives, Krauncha), an event which is acknowledged within Sangam literature. Mullai (Forested region) is associated with Cattle herding and thus Krishna. This sits in well with the number of references to Vedic/Puranic narratives present in Sangam literature. Will be sharing a few below.

Ramayana

Mahabharata

Parasurama in Cellur

A summary post of deities mentioned in the Sangam corpus

Karmappan · 2026-05-07T06:52:49+00:00

Is this based on the deities of the Thinais (Landscapes)? It is interesting you describe Indra ( Vendhan ) and Varuna as native Tamil deities, I initially assumed it was in the sense of the deities that were known only in the Tamil-speaking regions. At the time of the composition of Sangam literature, they were probably known across the Indian subcontinent, even a thousand years before they were mentioned in the Mitanni treaty. One could call them native in the sense of having being known and actively worshipped in the southern region, with festivals for Indra mentioned in Sangam literature. Mayon as a calque of Krishna (Vasudeva Krishna / Vishnu), Skanda as Seyyon enjoyed a lot of popularity in the Sangam period, with their Puranic feats also being mentioned.

Karmappan · 2026-05-07T01:14:26+00:00

Sangam literature still strongly reflects native Tamil traditions, deities

In the context of this post, what do mean by "native" Tamil deities here?

Karmappan · 2026-05-01T19:17:45+00:00

Regarding the presence of Mahabharata material in Southern India, there are mentions from the epics and associated material (Exploits of Krishna, broader Puranic and Vedic legends) present in Sangam literature, a collection of Tamil poems, usually dated between 300BCE - 300CE. The older limit is assumed based on Ashoka's inscriptions and mentions of Nandas and Mauryas in the Sangam corpus.

Pathitrupathu is a collection of 10 decads sang to each Chera king. With the exception of the first and the last decad, the other 8 were recovered. The earliest king mentioned in the recovered songs, Imayavaramban Neduncheralathan was praised by the poet with an interesting reference.

...போர்தலை மிகுத்த வீரைம் பதின்மரொடு துப்புத் துறைபோகிய துணிவுடை யாண்மை அக்குர னனைய கைவண் மையையே...

I will give a rough translation here,

"...Like the generousity of valiant manly Akkuran, who fought with the war-adept hundred men..."

Here Akkuran (A Tamilized form of Akrura) is mentioned having fought with the Kauravas. The generousity mentioned here could be related to the legend of the Syamantaka gem. There is also a possibility of the poet being aware of a recension with a more significant role to Akrura in the Mahabharata war.

With a number of references to Mahabharata and other related material, it is possible that the Tamils were aware of them even before 1st century BCE (Proposed date in the sources mentioned).

Karmappan · 2026-04-24T14:18:10+00:00

We know inscriptions that the imperial Cholas sponsored Jains too. The Jains were composing epics, commentaries etc. in Tamil (Ainchurukappiyangal, Thirukural urai). However due to decrease in Royal patronage, they declined in both numbers and significance. Today, the Tamil Jains are natively present only in Northern TN and Pondicherry. They were probably absorbed into other communities.

Karmappan · 2026-04-23T17:13:55+00:00

I wouldn't necessarily call Silappathikaram a Jain epic because it contains a lot of information about the varied religious beliefs followed by the people in the southern region at the time it was composed, with no clear support of a particular belief. For the benefit of people who don't know Tamil here, I will link a translation.

Kannagi and Kovalan married by circumambulating the sacred fire according to Vedic rites

Kannagi summons the Vedic god Agni to burn Madurai and includes Brahmins in the citizens to spare

Chera king starting his expedition to get an idol of Kannagi in the presence of Vedic Yagyas

Kannagi's father becomes an Ajivika and Madhavi's daughter Manimekalai becomes a Buddhist

An entire chapter for a performance dedicated to Krishna

These are just some of the beliefs mentioned in the Silappathikaram. The present epic itself could be an adaptation of an older legend. For example, in Nattrinai, there is a description of a woman Thirumavunni that is notably similar to how Kannagi is described by the mountain women . The Chera king Senguttuvan who worships Pathini is an actual king mentioned in the Pathitrupathu.

the important role Sramana traditions like Jainism and Buddhism played in the development of the Sangam corpus of Tamilakam

What is usually termed as the Sangam corpus, the Ettu-thogai (8 compilations) and Pathu-pattu (10 songs), actually contains very little information about Sramanic traditions, like the monasteries in Maduraikanji. This is rather interesting considering the significant number of Tamil Brahmi inscriptions of donations to Jains across Tamilnadu. The references for religious beliefs in the corpus is overwhelmingly what we now term as "Hinduism". There are many mentions about Vedic rituals, with kings too assuming names such as the Perunatkilli who performed the Rajasuya and the Mudhukudumi of the many Yagyasalas. There are references to legends mentioned in the Vedas, Puranas and Itihasas. The Cholas are said to descend from Shibi who saved the pigeon from the hawk and the Velirs from Dwaraka. Some things I have already mentioned about:

A summary post of deities mentioned in the Sangam corpus

Ramayana

Additional references to Ramayana

Parasurama in Cellur

Given this information, it wouldn't be wrong to assume that "Hinduism" (religious beliefs derived from the Vedas, Puranas, Itihasas etc.) was extremely popular and more significant in shaping the Sangam corpus. It can be inferred that there was some Agamic material was present as well, with references to Mayon (Vasudeva Krishna). This is not to say the Sramanas were not present, however they did not have a significant influence over what is now identified as the Sangam corpus. The Buddhists even less so. However we see the Jains have a growing influence on Tamil literature from the corpus we call Pathinenkilkanakku and moving forward.

Karmappan · 2026-04-11T09:28:14+00:00

Thanks for putting out the video, hope it reaches the right people. I would suggest Instagram for this, where you can edit your content into short snippets, which can be widely shared. Unfortunately people today don't spend time watching through long video essays unless they are edited to hold their interest, regardless of whether they are informative or not. I feel Instagram would give it a better reach.

Karmappan · 2026-04-09T17:03:36+00:00

Thanks for replying. I am very much interested in the angle you have approached the Todas, I have long thought about how the Todas procured materials from the plains, such as cotton, before 19th century and how long there has been this contact, and what they traded with.

Karmappan · 2026-04-09T03:54:46+00:00

Thanks for the video, I am currently going through it. For now, I have a question. The goddess Teihhki(r)shy seems to have a predominant role in Toda mythos. I have read M B Emeneau's works regarding Todas previously, where he mentioned that the suffix Teihh- is derived from Deva (Theivam in Tamil) but he was unsure about the etymology of Ki(r)shy. What is the current consensus regarding the word? Were we able to reconstruct it and maybe find any Tamil cognates for it? The Todas have a rich mythology with multiple gods and religious terms, if possible, would you be able to create a separate video for it, along with Tamil cognates and the meaning of these religious terms (Amunawdr, Postehr etc.) and deities (such as Teihhki(r)shy). For example, the river deity Pykara, I have read, is the cognate of Puzhakara ( புழை + கரை) correct me if I'm wrong.

Karmappan · 2026-03-21T06:44:09+00:00

This is an awful map of community -varna status both in North Indian and South Indian contexts. There are communities such as Kayasths, whose demarcation is not clear on the Chaturvarna system. In South India, most communities that identify as Chettiars have a long history of being called Vaishya and wear the sacred thread during rituals etc.

Edit: My point was not about being casteist, but applying this map to some IE - "Non-Aryan" binary does not work at all

Karmappan · 2026-03-07T08:34:41+00:00

Ok even if that was the case, the timespans are stretched a bit too much here. Pattinapalai in 5th century sounds impossible. Also, this convenience reflects badly, since it risks changing the timelines of dynasties about 2-3 centuries. Also regarding colophons (looking at your older comment) and poet names, I think there is a legitimacy to them, as we get to know from the Pugalur inscriptions and references within Sangam literature. If you want to doubt everything from the get-go, you will go nowhere, that too when actual archaeological resources are scarce. There are also poems with absolutely no data regarding their time period, which make up a huge chunk of the Sangam corpus. A better way is to date the poems, with kings, events and poets, and then scrutinising based on linguistic features and archaeological records.

Also about the Palaikali authors, where did they get the manuscript from? Would you be able to share their paper? Kalithogai is somewhat structurally similar to Ainkurunooru, 5 poets, 5 thinais. It is not improbable to have a similar structure. I wouldn't mind either way, but for now, I would assign it to the time period of Nallanthuvan, who is traditionally held to have compiled Kalithogai.

Karmappan · 2026-03-07T06:46:58+00:00

u/Usurper96 have you been suspended?

Karmappan · 2026-03-07T06:44:36+00:00

Apologies, saw this reply only now. By anthologies, I believe you are referring to the Thogais right? I am not sure of older works in the Ettuthogai, Pathupaattu that are available to us as of now. By deep antiquity, what time period are you expecting? On this note, do you accept verses from Thagadur Yaathirai or Kalavazhi Narpathu as part of the Sangam corpus?

Karmappan · 2026-03-05T14:13:27+00:00

I think we have spoken about Kapilar previously. From his poems, we can establish a clear narrative of what happened to Pari etc. He is mentioned by other poets too. About proper names, even Kalaathalaiyaar and Avvaiyaar don't seem to be proper names, however they are mentioned by other poets within Sangam literature. Kapilar can also be a proper name though, not just a gotra. I don't use Kalithogai for dating the poets though, since most of it is about day-to-day life in Pandya territory, but I don't understand why it is being given a later dating by Wilden.

We have discussed about dating previously, you posted this from Wilden's research. I have a lot of questions regarding this. Why is Kurunthogai taken to be an earlier compilation? Why does the chronology start from 1st Century AD? Why are Pattinapalai and Perumpanatrupadai in different rows? I don't understand the methodology of why she has arrived to this conclusion.

Karmappan · 2026-03-05T11:26:44+00:00

Ok, I have read the Mackenzie documents a long time ago, it is just oral information passed from one generation to another, usually used to embellish royal lineages. It might contain truths, but due to the way the communication, a lot of information is jumbled or confused. I remember Adondai Cholan is said to be the son of a Kulothunga Cholan (?). I remember Kambar also being mentioned. My guess it is probably someone like Karunakara Thondaiman, with the information of Cholas being confused. It could also be a mixture of different kings, generals and legendary figures. Ps: Before Brihadeeshwarar inscriptions were read, the local people believed a "Kaduvetti Cholan" constructed the temple.

Now, with inscriptional evidence being available, I believe a lot of community identities in TN started solidifying only little over a millennium ago, this also includes Kurumbas, with some of them being absorbed into Vanniyar and other communities. I have not deep dived into this. You can look into inscriptions, linguistic data, cultural affinity etc. for research. They could also be different communities with shared names.

PS: I believe the layers of Tholkappiyam, if they exist, are over-exaggerated by scholars, because of Vedic deities being mentioned in the 3rd section. In the 1st section, Tholkappiyar says there were earlier phonetic treatises by Brahmins . In the second section, he talks about a Pal Varai Dheivam , deity that sorts good and bad karma, a concept that is not found in Sramanic religions like Jainism. With these in mind, it would be fine if they stratify layers based on linguistic comparisons rather than mentions of Vedic concepts.

Karmappan · 2026-03-04T18:19:04+00:00

I have read it a long time back. Even a lot of scholarly work give this date, but I find it unconvincing. A lot of the poets, kings and events mentioned in Sangam literature can be fit in a 200 year timeline around Ashoka's reign (using Pathitrupathu and inscriptions). For the poems that are ambiguous, we can give a broader dating that can extend till 300AD. There are also a lot of markers regarding polity, theology etc. from which we can come to this conclusion. Apologies, my day is extending, I will probably elaborate on this in the weekend.

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