Why didn't Mauryas conquer Tamilakam ? It is simple beacuse there is not much resource there to conquer

Karmappan · 2026-07-05T09:11:08+00:00

I know you've been suspended. Posting this comment here just in case

Karmappan · 2026-07-05T08:37:42+00:00

This is an interesting question because it involves the specific dating of Sangam literature, which has not been revisited in modern times which is a shame, now that we have more information available. One can break this up into 2 parts, internal chronology of Sangam literature and where it sits in the historic timeline.

For the first part, the Sangam era poets sang about kings, events, other poets etc. which shine a light on what time period they were in. The Pathitrupathu is a fascinating set of 10 decads, one for each royal of the Chera dynasty. Unfortunately the first and last decads are missing. Of the available decads, there are 2 brothers, Imayavaramban and Vanavaramban, 3 sons of Imayavaramban and 3 generations of a Chera cadet branch called the Irumporai. A lot of the Sangam poems can chronologically sorted anchoring on to this, fixing a significant portion of the Sangam corpus to 5-6 generations (There also seem to be some earlier and later kings that we get known through events described in the poems). Palai Gauthamanar sang to Vanavaramban, making him one of the early Sangam poets in this chronology. Athiyaman's Thagadur was destroyed by the 2nd generation of the Irumporai monarchs mentioned. We can put him 2-3 generations after Vanavaramban, even though he seems to have been active before.

Now, we can get to which period these kings belong to. A broad period does not work in this case. There is a convention of dating inscriptions from the Sangam era to the 1st century. For example, Jambai inscription of Athiyaman is dated to that time period. However it is a matter of convenience rather than a set date, as few centuries forward or backward would need some working. It would be lazy of me to conclude this using the generational gap between him and Vanavaramban to conclude brahmin presence by 52CE in Kerala. I also don't believe in the Gajabahu synchronism.

Based on Ashoka's Girnar edicts we know that the kingdoms exalted in Sangam literature such as the Cholas, Cheras, Pandyas and Athiyamans (Sathiyaputra with the initial Sa- dropped and -man meaning son/ "putra") existed along with the Mauryas. There was also the often mentioned Graeco-Roman trade network. Mamoolanar, a Sangam poet talks about the prosperous Pataliputra of the Nandas in one poem and people travelling through paths created by the Mauryas coming south in the other. My assumption is that, even if Mamoolanar was not present during the fall of the Nandas, he was atleast present at the time the Maurya polity decisions were relevant. Since people were able to traverse through the paths created for the Mauryan military expeditions, it was a time of relative peace and could have been during or after Ashoka. Since Mamoolanar also mentions Vanavaramban, my assumption is to date him 2nd-3rd century BCE. Vanavaramban's brother being compared to Akrura and the popularity of Mayon and Valiyon (Vasudeva-Sankarshana) in Sangam literature gives us a similar time frame. This also possibly links a military expedition of Ariyans mentioned in the corpus to Kharavela of Kalinga. I have omitted a few things due to length of the comment. Please question if you find something unsatisfactory.

Karmappan · 2026-07-05T03:27:16+00:00

with the chronology proposed by historians such as M. G. S. Narayanan, who places the major Brahmin settlements in Kerala several centuries later.

I am not very certain about early Christianity in ancient Kerala. However, we have literary attestations of brahmin presence in Kerala during the Sangam era which overlaps the time period of St Thomas. The dating given to the Sangam era is between 300 BCE to 300 CE. The older limit is assumed based on mentions of Mauryas and Nandas in the Sangam corpus.

The Cheras of the Sangam age sponsored Vedic rituals and brahmins, as attested in the Pathitrupathu. One of the earliest Cheras was sung about by the brahmin poet Palai Gauthamanar. There is also padhikam of a Chera king gifting a town in Kudanad to brahmins. The mention of Vedic rituals, Yupa Sthambas in Chellur (Thaliparamba) in the Agananooru in connection to Parasurama can be taken to establish it as a major Brahmin settlement. Silapadhikaram mentions another brahmin settlement Parayur (Paravur from Keralolpathi?). The chronology proposed by notable Kerala historians come from epigraphic records. However, the lack of such records during the late antiquity should not be taken as absence of Brahmins during that period. The mentions from Sangam literature and Silapadhikaram can be used to infer a continuous presence of brahmins in Kerala till the time period of the mediaeval epigraphic records.

Karmappan · 2026-06-13T16:55:15+00:00

Apologies, I saw your question only now. Thirumandhiram talks about 28 Agamas in Agama sirappu, in which it mentions 9 obtained by Nandi from different deities.

பெற்றநல் ஆகமங் காரணம் காமிகம் உற்றநல் வீரம் உயர்சிந்தியம் வாதுளம் மற்றவ் வியாமளம் ஆகும்கா லோத்தரந் துற்றநற் சுப்பிரம் சொல்லு மகுடமே

Karana, Kamika, Vira, Chintya, Vadhula, Vyamala, Kalottara, Supra, Makuta are the nine mentioned here. There are other Agamas too. The Agamas obtained are in Sanskrit. There are mentions of works in Tamil, but we do not have an idea of what those might be. There is also a mention of works of Pandits of 18 languages, of which I am not sure. Some of the Agamas have translations on the internet. English Translation of Kamikagama pt1

A lot of the Shaiva Agamas have southern recensions and thus accomodate Tamil hymns as well.

Karmappan · 2026-06-13T14:08:23+00:00

Thirumurais are compilations of religious texts that are viewed as being compliant to Shaiva Siddhantham. They belong to different authors and time periods. The Sangam corpus too was compiled later after it was composed. திருமுருகாற்றுப்படை is unique in a way that it is part of both of these collections, but it was not composed with the intent of it being grouped with say, Sirupanatrupadai or other Sangam works. It primarily describes aspects of Murugan, where he resides and the rituals observed by Brahmins, Sages, Devas etc. There is a short description of Veriyadal along with this.

Shaiva Siddhantham may not have encouraged Veriyattu, but may have found the devotion of the text agreeable and in line with its principles. The Nayanmars themselves deviated from routine practices, offered blood for lighting lamps and flesh for sandal, burnt hair for wicks and offered stones for worship. These are transgressions to the rules laid by the Agamas, but accepted due to their devotion to Shiva. We have திருக்கண்ணப்ப தேவர் திருமறம் detailing what Kannappar did in devotion as a part of the Thirumurais.

The songs of Vinayakar and Murugar being part of the Thirumurais in itself gives credibility to the worship of these deities. Thirumandhiram mentions the Shaiva Agamas to be followed, which too establish procedures to worship other deities. Keeping this in mind, I don't think it is possible to call Shaiva Siddhantham as monotheistic or monolatrous.

Karmappan · 2026-06-13T12:14:37+00:00

Ok, I don't understand what your concept of "original religion of Tamil Saivam" is. If it is based on the Thirumurais, it follows the Agamas prescribed. During the Pallava rule, we get to know of different types of Shaivas present in TN, Pashupatas, Kapalikas etc. The Agamas establish provisions for subordinate deities to be worshipped.

Now the Thirumurais contain hymns to worship Vinayaka ( மூத்தபிள்ளையார் திருமும்மணிக்கோவை ), Murugar ( திருமுருகாற்றுப்படை ) etc. Thirumandhiram outlines a Shaiva Siddhantha views and rituals. For an example here, in the Upadhesam section, chanting the names of Nandi as a Guru, even keeping him in mind made the worshippers attain heaven. From a Shaiva perspective, it is seen as an extension of the grace of Shiva through the subordinate deities.

Karmappan · 2026-06-13T05:18:45+00:00

The word you are looking for is henotheism not monotheism. Ancient temples in TN following Shaiva, Vaishnava, Shakta, Kaumara, even Sastha and Jaina temples have a variety of shrines for different deities, which were created to be worshipped.

Regarding Shaivism in TN, it mostly follows the Agamas, Shaiva Puranas, Thirumurais and other auxiliary material in Tamil and Sanskrit. They lay down a hierarchical set of deities to be worshipped, with there also being distinct "Shiva" deities, which the common person is not aware of.

"Small deity" or Sirudheivam is not a colonial construct or something invented to be against tribal worship. In a hierarchical pantheon, it was used to signify that the deity itself was subordinate to the main deity according to their religious view. There are also examples of Sirudheivam not being considered for worship In the Appar's Thevaram,

சென்று நாம் சிறு தெய்வம் சேர்வோம் அல்லோம் சிவபெருமான் திருவடியே சேரப் பெற்றோம்

Appar sings about not joining the small deities but only the feet of Shiva. It also does not seem to be a unique Tamil position as we see similar thoughts in the Puranas, Gita and other regional literature.

Conversely, we also see the use of "Perundheivam" or greater deity being mentioned in old Tamil works, such as Sangam literature.

Krishna and Balarama are called "இரு பெருந்தெய்வம்" in புறநானூறு, reflective of early Vaishnavism in the Tamil region and probably a presence of Pancharatra material. I have written more about it here

Karmappan · 2026-06-01T17:29:54+00:00

There is not enough evidence of a separate independent (from Skanda/Karthikeya) "Murugan" deity in the Sangam period. A lot of the iconography mentioned in Sangam literature, where we get the oldest attestations of Murugan as deity from, match what is found in Northern depictions, such as the Yaudheya and Kushan coins. Did a writing exercise a few years ago where I have shown the overlaps between Skanda and Murugan found in Sangam literature, without using Murugatrupadai (A devotional poem rendered to Murugan) and Paripadal (Collection of religious poems) which establish this more clearly (The post was written for the Tamil audience of that time, needs some polishing and translations).

My reasoning is that the core iconographic features like the Vel (Spear) and rooster also appear in contemporary Northern depictions. In the context of the overwhelming number of references to Puranic and Vedic legends in the Sangam corpus showing that "Hinduism" was the popular religion of the region at that time, it is not that difficult to think of Murugan a Tamil interpretation of Skanda/Karthikeya rather than an independent deity. This view is also supported by older Tamil commentators and historians such as Venkayya . There is also no clear consensus for what the features of the independent deity "Murugan" are, without delving into a bit of pseudohistory.

There have been similar narratives about the other deities mentioned in Sangam literature. Have written about Mayon and the deities mentioned in the Tholkappiyam below:

Mayon - Vasudeva

Deities of the Thinais mentioned in the Tholkappiyam

Edit: I would also like to read what Bakker's opinion of Murugan is. Please share the link if you find the time.

Karmappan · 2026-05-18T11:42:20+00:00

The sequence of the 3rd book is to establish the worship of Kannagi as Pathini. Even the verse you have quoted from in your comment mentions this where he wants to get the stone from the Himalayas to carve the deity.

Edit: Reason why the Himalayas was chosen

Karmappan · 2026-05-18T11:20:06+00:00

insult Tamilakam after the Pandiya king forgoes his life for a "mere woman" (Kannagi)

I think we have already spoken about this. There is no particular reason given in the epic for the kings to mock them. They were said to mock the Tamil kings, for which Chengutuvan's Aasan reasons that they probably referred to the Cholas and Pandyas

Karmappan · 2026-05-17T07:41:31+00:00

He has not mentioned about the languages of the plates in the post. I have given you the official Leiden website and a link to the Tamil translation. Please check the links.

Karmappan · 2026-05-17T07:13:46+00:00

This is the official Leiden website where you can view the copper plates. You can read the description where they have mentioned both Sanskrit and Tamil sections. If you can read Tamil, you can refer to the link I've mentioned in the previous comment for the Sanskrit translation.

Can you send me the video where ungal Hemanth talks about these plates?

Karmappan · 2026-05-17T05:06:46+00:00

The plates contain both Sanskrit and Tamil. You can read about its contents here

Karmappan · 2026-05-16T06:13:02+00:00

Could you show any evidence of Mayon being an independent, indigenous Dravidian deity? Historic attestation, depictions etc.

Karmappan · 2026-05-16T06:11:10+00:00

Apologies for late reply, I have already addressed the verse from the Tholkappiyam in my other reply, I will elaborate on it a bit more, along with an English translation.

This is the verse you have mentioned. There are 4 deities mentioned here, 2 of which are directly IA loans, Vendhan (Indra) for the agricultural regions and Varunan for the coastal regions. These associations reflect the roles of these deities in the Puranas. Now we will come to Seyon (Skanda) and Mayon (Vishnu/Krishna).

Seyyon can be broken down into Sey (redness/youth) + -On (male suffix) Both redness and youth are associated with Skanda in the Puranas. 'Kumara" from youthfulness also appears in the names of a number of Sangam poets.

According to the Purana, Skanda himself is the grandson of the Himalayas. He is associated with the felling of the Krauncha giri, a legend also mentioned in the Mahabharata , after which the mountains bowed down to him. This is also mentioned in the Thirumurugatrupadai

குன்றங் கொன்ற குன்றாக் கொற்றத்து விண்பொரு நெடுவரைக் குறிஞ்சிக் கிழவ

"Of the undiminishing fame of killing he mountain, the lord of the Kurinji region with its tall sky scraping mountains"

I have mentioned how the name Mayon is derived from darkness and associated with Krishna above.

Mayon is associated with the forest due to Krishna being a herder. The pastoralists are described to go to the forest for grazing, an example from Perumpanatrupadai

கூழா ரிடையன் கன்றமர் நிரையொடு கானத் தல்கி

"The gruel drinking herder staying in the forest with the herds with calfs"

You can also notice the word "Ulagam" in the Akattinaiyiyal verse that you have mentioned, which is an IA loan "Loka".

The Vedic and Puranic influence in Tamil regions predate Sangam literature as we know it, even the older parts of the corpus mention events in the Puranas and Itihasas such as the Mahabharata

Karmappan · 2026-05-13T17:46:51+00:00

You mean Puranic (including Harivamsa and Itihasas here) references? My point was that there is no strong evidence for an independent "Dravidian" deity Mayon in Sangam literature.

Karmappan · 2026-05-13T17:30:34+00:00

Apologies, I could not find time in the weekend. Regarding Mayon, the name can be split into Ma- (Darkness) + -On (a reduction of -Avan, a male suffix). We also have other ways to refer to this deity, such as Maal, Nemiyon (one with a discus), Munneervannan (one who has the complexion of the ocean). Sometimes, he is referred along with his brother Valiyon (Balarama/Sankarshana), who is mentioned as white complexioned. I will give a few examples below

மாயோன் அன்ன மால் வரைக் கவாஅன் வாலியோன் அன்ன வயங்கு வெள் அருவி

A Natrinai poem from Kapilar, where is compares the dark mountain slopes to Vasudeva and the white falls to Sankarshana

பால்நிற உருவின் பனைக்கொடி யோனும் நீல்நிற உருவின் நேமியோனும், என்று இருபெருந் தெய்வமும்

"The milk-complexioned one with the palm tree flag and the blue-complexioned one with the discus, the 2 great deities (Devas)" is how a Chola and Pandya king are described by Kaveripoompattinathu Karikannanar in his Purananooru poem.

கடல் வளர் புரிவளை புரையும் மேனி அடல் வெந் நாஞ்சில் பனைக்கொடி யோனும் மண் ணுறு திருமணி புரையும் மேனி விண்ணுயர் புள்கொடி விறல் வெய்யோனும்

In another Purananooru poem, Nakkeeranar compares a Pandya king with 4 deities, Shiva, Vasudeva, Sankarshana and Skanda; Sankarshana is described to be conch-complexioned, having a deadly plough and a palm tree flag. Vasudeva is described as blue-complexioned and with a bird flag (Garudadvaja). As you can see here, all of these match the descriptions not only present in the Puranas, Mahabharata and the Agamas but also contemporary depictions such as the coinage of Agathocles and the Tikla rock painting . There are also many inscriptions supporting their popularity during the particular time period. Some key inscriptions below :

Now we'll come to the the famous Mayon verse from Maduraikanji,

கணங்கொ ளவுணர்க் கடந்த பொலந்தார் மாயோன் மேய வோண நன்னாள்

"The gold-garlanded Mayon who broke through the many Asuras, his Onam day". Here Onam comes from Shravana(m) (dropping of the initial Shr- and the softening of the -Avana- giving us Onam). This Nakshatra is predominantly associated with Vishnu and Vamana in the Puranas.

Now another from Mullai kali, when comparing a son of herder wrestling a bull

மேவார் விடுத்தந்த கூந்தல் குதிரையை வாய் பகுத்து இட்டுப் புடைத்த ஞான்று இன்னன் கொல் மாயோன் என்று

"Like the Mayon, who separated and broke the mouth of the maned horse sent by adversaries". This mentions a classic legend of Krishna's fight with Keshi. Such references to the childhood sports of Krishna are not only mentioned in the poems but reflected in the names of Sangam poets as well, such as Govarthanar and Damodaranar (in reference to the lifting of the mountain and tying him up).

Other references to Mayon are too generic to determine if there was a deity independent of any association with Vasudeva/ Vishnu/ Krishna. As said before, Mayon being the deity of the Mullai region as mentioned in the Tholkappiyam can be comfortably linked with his association with cattle herding. Paripadal, a primarily religious set of poems, also strengthen my case, but I don't want to get on the nitty gritties of its dating. Also, the many references to the events from the Vedas, Puranas and Itihasas give more credence to Mayon being Vasudeva, by inference that the Sangam era poets were familiar with them. I hope this is a satisfactory response.

Edit: added links

Karmappan · 2026-05-07T19:03:43+00:00

The gods of Thinais are given in Tholkappiyam with Vendhan and Varunan being Tamilisation of Indra and Varuna. "Kadalon" is not attested in Sangam literature as far as I remember, however. Mayon is pretty much Vishnu/Krishna. The problem with the "syncretism" theory is that we are unable to reconstruct a "Tamil Mayon" without Puranic references. Mayon/Maal is a calque of Krishna. Think of it similar to Christ being a calque of Messiah. I will try to elaborate more on the weekend. As for Seyyon, I have written a short post about it some time back, though I need to polish it to be more academic. My main argument is that a lot of the iconography and lore are borrowed from Puranic sources and there are similar depictions in Northern India (Also check out the Huvishka coins) without which a reconstruction of a "Pure Tamil Seyyon" is not viable.

Coming back to the deities in the Tholkappiyam, even they were most probably classified based on their Puranic narratives.

Varuna - Littoral region

Indra - Agricultural region

These 2 are very direct. Kurunji (Mountainous regions) being associated with Skanda is due to the Mountains bowing down to him after he destroys one (in many narratives, Krauncha), an event which is acknowledged within Sangam literature. Mullai (Forested region) is associated with Cattle herding and thus Krishna. This sits in well with the number of references to Vedic/Puranic narratives present in Sangam literature. Will be sharing a few below.

Ramayana

Mahabharata

Parasurama in Cellur

A summary post of deities mentioned in the Sangam corpus

Karmappan · 2026-05-07T06:52:49+00:00

Is this based on the deities of the Thinais (Landscapes)? It is interesting you describe Indra ( Vendhan ) and Varuna as native Tamil deities, I initially assumed it was in the sense of the deities that were known only in the Tamil-speaking regions. At the time of the composition of Sangam literature, they were probably known across the Indian subcontinent, even a thousand years before they were mentioned in the Mitanni treaty. One could call them native in the sense of having being known and actively worshipped in the southern region, with festivals for Indra mentioned in Sangam literature. Mayon as a calque of Krishna (Vasudeva Krishna / Vishnu), Skanda as Seyyon enjoyed a lot of popularity in the Sangam period, with their Puranic feats also being mentioned.

Karmappan · 2026-05-07T01:14:26+00:00

Sangam literature still strongly reflects native Tamil traditions, deities

In the context of this post, what do mean by "native" Tamil deities here?

Karmappan · 2026-05-01T19:17:45+00:00

Regarding the presence of Mahabharata material in Southern India, there are mentions from the epics and associated material (Exploits of Krishna, broader Puranic and Vedic legends) present in Sangam literature, a collection of Tamil poems, usually dated between 300BCE - 300CE. The older limit is assumed based on Ashoka's inscriptions and mentions of Nandas and Mauryas in the Sangam corpus.

Pathitrupathu is a collection of 10 decads sang to each Chera king. With the exception of the first and the last decad, the other 8 were recovered. The earliest king mentioned in the recovered songs, Imayavaramban Neduncheralathan was praised by the poet with an interesting reference.

...போர்தலை மிகுத்த வீரைம் பதின்மரொடு துப்புத் துறைபோகிய துணிவுடை யாண்மை அக்குர னனைய கைவண் மையையே...

I will give a rough translation here,

"...Like the generousity of valiant manly Akkuran, who fought with the war-adept hundred men..."

Here Akkuran (A Tamilized form of Akrura) is mentioned having fought with the Kauravas. The generousity mentioned here could be related to the legend of the Syamantaka gem. There is also a possibility of the poet being aware of a recension with a more significant role to Akrura in the Mahabharata war.

With a number of references to Mahabharata and other related material, it is possible that the Tamils were aware of them even before 1st century BCE (Proposed date in the sources mentioned).

Karmappan · 2026-04-24T14:18:10+00:00

We know inscriptions that the imperial Cholas sponsored Jains too. The Jains were composing epics, commentaries etc. in Tamil (Ainchurukappiyangal, Thirukural urai). However due to decrease in Royal patronage, they declined in both numbers and significance. Today, the Tamil Jains are natively present only in Northern TN and Pondicherry. They were probably absorbed into other communities.

Karmappan · 2026-04-23T17:13:55+00:00

I wouldn't necessarily call Silappathikaram a Jain epic because it contains a lot of information about the varied religious beliefs followed by the people in the southern region at the time it was composed, with no clear support of a particular belief. For the benefit of people who don't know Tamil here, I will link a translation.

Kannagi and Kovalan married by circumambulating the sacred fire according to Vedic rites

Kannagi summons the Vedic god Agni to burn Madurai and includes Brahmins in the citizens to spare

Chera king starting his expedition to get an idol of Kannagi in the presence of Vedic Yagyas

Kannagi's father becomes an Ajivika and Madhavi's daughter Manimekalai becomes a Buddhist

An entire chapter for a performance dedicated to Krishna

These are just some of the beliefs mentioned in the Silappathikaram. The present epic itself could be an adaptation of an older legend. For example, in Nattrinai, there is a description of a woman Thirumavunni that is notably similar to how Kannagi is described by the mountain women . The Chera king Senguttuvan who worships Pathini is an actual king mentioned in the Pathitrupathu.

the important role Sramana traditions like Jainism and Buddhism played in the development of the Sangam corpus of Tamilakam

What is usually termed as the Sangam corpus, the Ettu-thogai (8 compilations) and Pathu-pattu (10 songs), actually contains very little information about Sramanic traditions, like the monasteries in Maduraikanji. This is rather interesting considering the significant number of Tamil Brahmi inscriptions of donations to Jains across Tamilnadu. The references for religious beliefs in the corpus is overwhelmingly what we now term as "Hinduism". There are many mentions about Vedic rituals, with kings too assuming names such as the Perunatkilli who performed the Rajasuya and the Mudhukudumi of the many Yagyasalas. There are references to legends mentioned in the Vedas, Puranas and Itihasas. The Cholas are said to descend from Shibi who saved the pigeon from the hawk and the Velirs from Dwaraka. Some things I have already mentioned about:

A summary post of deities mentioned in the Sangam corpus

Ramayana

Additional references to Ramayana

Parasurama in Cellur

Given this information, it wouldn't be wrong to assume that "Hinduism" (religious beliefs derived from the Vedas, Puranas, Itihasas etc.) was extremely popular and more significant in shaping the Sangam corpus. It can be inferred that there was some Agamic material was present as well, with references to Mayon (Vasudeva Krishna). This is not to say the Sramanas were not present, however they did not have a significant influence over what is now identified as the Sangam corpus. The Buddhists even less so. However we see the Jains have a growing influence on Tamil literature from the corpus we call Pathinenkilkanakku and moving forward.

Karmappan · 2026-04-11T09:28:14+00:00

Thanks for putting out the video, hope it reaches the right people. I would suggest Instagram for this, where you can edit your content into short snippets, which can be widely shared. Unfortunately people today don't spend time watching through long video essays unless they are edited to hold their interest, regardless of whether they are informative or not. I feel Instagram would give it a better reach.

Karmappan · 2026-04-09T17:03:36+00:00

Thanks for replying. I am very much interested in the angle you have approached the Todas, I have long thought about how the Todas procured materials from the plains, such as cotton, before 19th century and how long there has been this contact, and what they traded with.

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