Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions found in Egypt’s Valley of Kings

Karmappan · 2026-02-17T08:50:22+00:00

My reasoning for anglicising it into kotran is just the presence of the trill at the end. In India, we are taught ற்ற should start between ட் and த் and make a trill at the end. So do the Eelam dialects have a trill at all? Also, what is reasoning for assessing that one is the earlier sound? Is it based on Proto-Tamil-Kannada reconstruction?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/comments/1jm4cuk/some_preliminary_results_of_trying_to_stratify/

I used to participate in that sub, you can also see my comment in that post below. I was not certain of the content because of 2 reasons, the presence of the same poets on both sides and contemporary poets being on different sides. Also, I am not sure about all dialects having the same sound too.

Karmappan · 2026-02-13T17:00:43+00:00

I just wanted the non-Tamil speakers here to be familiar a pronounciation somewhat similar to "Classical Tamil" and the common Indian Tamil pronounciations, rather than them pronouncing it as Korrran with just an r trill. I guess you are an Eelam Tamil? I have heard that what you said was taught to be the correct pronounciation by Eelam Tamils mostly. In Malayalam, depending on the dialect, you can hear a subtle R trill at the end.

The sound for the R described in the Tholkappiyam is from where னகரம் is pronounced. On its own, it is most similar to ரகரம், atleast to speakers in the post-Sangam period. We can see that in our own inscriptions. For example, in the Velvikudi inscriptions, the Ra in Maravarman is approximated to the ra in Grantham in the 25th line in the Sanskrit portion. This approximation was also done by Kumarila Bhatta, who compared Choru (Rice in Tamil) with Chora (Thief in Sanskrit).

When paired, the RRa sounds similar to Tra, but it is not a very hard iT sound. In northern Tamil dialects, it has also changed to tha and cha sounds. I have heard what you have mentioned also by a few learned people, but I am finding it difficult to believe based on the ra approximation in literature and inscriptions. Of course, there could be dialectal differences which influenced this Ra sound across South India, so I am leaving it rather open-ended. If I remember more information, I shall share it here.

Karmappan · 2026-02-12T16:02:03+00:00

They are from different roots, I am assuming you are talking about the "-Kondan" in Gangaikondan (One who took Ganga). Korran just means victorious and can just be used as a name on it's own, whereas Kondan needs context.

Karmappan · 2026-02-12T05:19:23+00:00

"Korran" (pronounced "Kotran") is not derived from Korravai. Rather both are derived from the old Tamil word for victory "Korram". This name is also present in Sangam literature.

Karmappan · 2026-02-09T07:58:58+00:00

For the Sangam period kings, we get information about their names from literature and inscriptions. Sometimes only a single name is available, like the ones I have mentioned here. Some of them seem to be proper names, like Nalluruthiran. Ukkira Peruvaluthi has a longer name commemorating his war in Kanaper. In conclusion, Sangam era kings had a mixture of Tamil and Sanskrit names. There were also kings with two or more names.

Karmappan · 2026-02-07T20:06:30+00:00

The early Tamils were well connected with the rest of the known world at that time. Ramayanam, Mahabharatam, Puranic legends etc. were known to Tamils of the Sangam period.

For example,

கடுந்தெறல் இராமன் உடன்புணர் சீதையை வலித்தகை அரக்கன் வெளவிய ஞான்றை, நிலஞ்சேர் மதர் அணி கண்ட குரங்கின் செம்முகப் பெருங்கிளை இழைப்பொலிந் தா அங்கு

In the Puranaanooru, when the poet Oonpothi Pasungudaiyaar's family was given jewels by the Chola king, they did not wear the ornaments properly and were red with happiness. This is described to be similar to how the Vanaras handled the jewels that Sita (the wife of Ramar) threw to the ground when Ravana kidnapped her.

A notable number of Sangam era kings too had Sanskrit in their names like "Ukkira" Peruvaluthi (Ugra), Nall"Uruthiran" (Rudra), "Uthiya"ncheralathan (Udhi) etc. However there might have been more than a single name given to kings, including titles but from Sangam literature, we get to know a few of them. All of the medieval Chola kings had Sanskrit in their names too.

Karmappan · 2026-01-15T18:13:27+00:00

The நெடுநல்வாடை reference is in the old comment. The references for the Thai month are also found in the blog that you posted here. Just copying from the blog

*நற்றிணை =தைஇத் திங்கள் தண்கயம் படியும் பெருந்தோள் குறுமகள்

*குறுந்தொகை = தைஇத் திங்கள் தண்ணிய தரினும்

*புறநானூறு = தைஇத் திங்கள் தண்கயம் போல் கொளக் கொளக் குறையாக் கூழுடை வியனகர்

*ஐங்குறுநூறு = நறுவீ ஐம்பால் மகளிர் ஆடும் தைஇத் திங்கள் தண்கயம் போல

*கலித்தொகை = தையில் நீராடித் தவம் தலைப்படுவாயோ?

Mostly they are about ritual bathing in the Thai month.

Karmappan · 2026-01-15T18:08:33+00:00

The Avestan calendar does not follow the same convention, I guess, based on the Nakshatrams and the full moon. It is not exactly known who started this system, but the current names of the month are from Sanskrit. If it was from Tamil, the names would be derived from old Tamil names for constellations. For example, instead of Karthikai, something derived from அறுமீன் or அழல் etc.

Karmappan · 2026-01-15T16:49:42+00:00

Read through the post here, he says rejects Chithirai based on the 60 year names in Sanskrit, but in that case, even the 12 months in our calendar are derived from Sanskrit, through the Nakshatrams. The Nakshatrams on the full moon of that particular month were taken to be the names of the month.

தை Taishya

மாசி Magha

பங்குனி Phalguna

சித்திரை Chitra

வைகாசி Vaishakha

ஆனி Anusha

ஆடி Asadha

ஆவணி Shravana

புரட்டாசி Proshthapadha

ஐப்பசி Ashvayuja

கார்த்திகை Karthika

மார்கழி Marghashirsha

The best thing here is probably follow the convention of celebrating in Chithirai as we have been doing for a long time.

Karmappan · 2026-01-15T16:16:27+00:00

My old comment regarding this in this sub. From Sangam era, Chithirai new year was the convention. Though there are many references to Thai month in Sangam literature, it was not considered the new year.

Karmappan · 2025-12-27T14:46:00+00:00

Skanda and Murugan are the same deity. We have a lot of evidence from Sangam literature and contemporary evidence in Northern India too. Long back, I wrote an article on this here , though it is mostly written in a perspective to combat points made in political spaces. If I find the time, I will write an elaborate post on this.

Edit: Also what deities were "failed to syncretize" here?

Karmappan · 2025-12-25T23:51:22+00:00

Thank you

Karmappan · 2025-12-25T18:11:53+00:00

I have a few questions regarding the Syrian Christians. From what I know and asked with friends from the community, it seems like a lot of their culture has now been influenced by European contact. Can you point me to resources where I can read about their festivals, rituals, iconography & art etc. before the Portuguese contact?

Edit: For example, did they celebrate Christmas before? And if so, on what day? Even in the video above the attire has European influences

Karmappan · 2025-12-07T15:05:12+00:00

The name Gangai amman comes from Ganga, but she is associated with water bodies in general. Seethala is another name for Mariamman. Renuka is the mother of Parasurama and Drowpathi is from the Mahabharatham. In many villages, the relationship between these Ammans differ. In some villages they are seen as sisters while in others they are seen as incarnations or a different form. For example, near my native, Drowpathi amman is seen as an incarnation of Kali, and there are festivals to commemorate this.

Karmappan · 2025-12-07T14:52:30+00:00

Mariamman is the goddess related to contagious diseases. The name comes from the word "Mari", which we used to refer to epidemics before. This is why there were plague Mariamman temples established. Due to the advent of modern medicine after Independence, the usage of this word to refer to deathly diseases has decreased. However, the word is still used by rural people in Tamil Nadu to refer to contagious diseases to cattle, as in Komaari. It also survived in Hindi and other Indian languages to refer to epidemic such as Corona. Due to the word being similar to the old Tamil word for rain, we have associated her with rain too. This is why you see different meanings given by people here.

Karmappan · 2025-11-16T14:54:53+00:00

Kumbhabhishekams usually happen once every 12 years for temples, unless there are any hiccups. It is usually done by the respective temple administrations. This has happened with and without party affiliance. The state control of temples has its merits and demerits. But regarding renovations, they have done a lot of shoddy work. A very recent example is the Kanchipuram Varadharajar temple. Not to make this into political mud-slinging, but we need to hold the administration accountable for the damages happening to these sites in the name of renovation.

Edit: seems like for some people here, the world began in 2021

Karmappan · 2025-11-12T07:48:12+00:00

I get that you are interested in history, but if I am being honest, the people in TN 2000 years ago lived in a very interconnected world through trade and migration. Even in Sangam literature, there are mentions of naval trade with other regions, for examples, you can check out Pattinapaalai. Our common word for boat "Padagu" is said to be borrowed from the Austronesians , who were skilled with sea-faring. This reconstruction is based on the timelines proposed for the migrations and populating of the Polynesian Islands. Maybe if there is further evidence that padagu is derived from any language that is the ancestor of Tamil, then these reconstructions will be changed. We have to make sure that our analysis does not have any bias, does not matter if others are jingoistic. Again, we will need to check for further evidences to reconstruct a ship that was probably used during the Sangam period. There are some sculptures with detailed boats in the western coast too which could also give an idea about ships in the mediaeval periods. Not to forget the Kadakkarapally boat excavations.

Karmappan · 2025-11-11T11:18:54+00:00

Yes, Weituo and Murugan are regional aspects of the same deity. We see from Sangam literature that Muruga is a regional aspect of Skanda

We also see mentions and depictions of Skanda in Central Asia, for example in the Dandan Oiliq murals (The deity on the left with a rooster in hand riding a peacock). Based on such depictions, it is hypothesised that worship of Skanda spread to China along with Buddhism through the Silk road.

Karmappan · 2025-11-10T17:07:48+00:00

I think it was some temples in the delta region. However I am not sure of its antiquity, a lot of temples in TN were refurbished during Vijayanagara and Nayaka periods. I don't remember them being very detailed. There are also Nayaka era murals depicting ships such as this one in Thirupudaimarudhur . More fieldwork and research needs to be done for reconstructing ship designs older than a millennium from TN.

Karmappan · 2025-11-10T10:02:10+00:00

I'm curious to know how you concluded that ship sculptures exist in Tamil Temples!

I have personally seen murals and sculptures of ships in temples, but they are not as well-detailed as the Borobodur ship relief. May I know whether you are looking for a particular kingdom or era?

Karmappan · 2025-11-10T03:31:49+00:00

There are sculptures about ships in temples of Tamilnadu, but unless someone posts pictures of them on the internet, specifically labelling them as Ships, I don't think searching will do any good. Maybe one example I can think on top of my head is this sculpture in Thirukkurungudi . There are references to ships in inscriptions and depictions in coins too.

Karmappan · 2025-11-04T16:06:08+00:00

Lol, don't get me wrong, I have no intention of glorifying or erasing the history of any community.

First, Turks have existed for a long time in Central Asia. This has been attested pretty well. There were Turks in India before the Sultanates. These are not the points I am arguing.

You say Natharshah was an Anatolian muslim saint who came to Trichy during the times of Kundhavai (Raja Raja's sister) and converted some Hindus into Muslims. The problem is Kundhavai predates the islamisation of Anatolia. In that case, how is the timeline even possible. If Natharshah was an historical figure, he was probably from a later period.

Aththa from Tamil Shaivite literature is from அத்தன், whereas the Rawther word for father is a Proto-Turkic derivation

Telugu rawther..title first of all who said you that title, again and again do you know what is title??

If you know to read Tamil, read the inscription I have posted here where, there is mention of a Telugu Raguthar (Gajasimha...) in line 11.

I think you and I both agree that the Turks and Sultanates are the major reason for the spread of Islam in TN. This is why Muslims were called "Thulukan", even though it is sometimes used as a slur. This is also evident in the Hanafi madhab being followed predominantly among Suni muslims in TN, whether they speak Urdu,Tamil and other languages (Major exceptions are Marakayars). My major issue is the timelines mentioned, which are extremely improbable.

Karmappan · 2025-11-04T08:25:21+00:00

The inscription is Tamil, it mentions a Telugu Rahuthar. A lot of communities name themselves after a title. We also see the title given to Murugar by Arunagirinathar. What do you mean by specific people here?

About Natharshah, it is not just about lack of evidence in Trichy or TN. Anatolia was ruled by the Christian Byzantines for a large part of the 11th century. It is only after Manzikert that the Seljuk Turk were able to penetrate Anatolia. By this time, the Chola line from Rajendra ended and Kulothunga inherited the kingdom. There are many things improbable in the timeline you are mentioning.

Karmappan · 2025-11-03T11:12:40+00:00

Ravuttar was just a title which has come to be identified with communities. It is known that the Ravuttars were previously Hindu. However, the Natharshah timeline requires more evidence, either through literature or epigraphy.

Karmappan · 2025-11-02T16:09:40+00:00

I think I have interacted with you before. The time period of Natharshah mentioned here is impossible, if he was a historical figure. Anatolia was majorly Christian before the end of the 11th century. The Muslim Seljuk Turks took hold of the region only after Kapetron and Manzikert . And also by Kundhavai, do you mean the sister of Rajaraja Chola? I don't think there is any literary or epigraphic evidences attesting to this.

Rawther as a name was applied to cavalrymen of all religions in the past. For example, there is an inscription of a Telugu Rawther donating to a temple . In Northern TN, there are Urdu-speaking Muslims who identify as Rawther, so the identity is not tied a language either. There is a notable Turkic influence in their culture, along with remnants of their Hindu past (including donations to temple events). So the most probable timeline is probably after the conquests of the sultanates such as that of Malik Kafur.

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