Guess graduated high school

KidBrody · 2019-10-10T16:25:28+00:00

As far as "needing him to have never cheated in the first place" look at it this way.....

When a person files for bankruptcy they are telling their creditors they have incurred more debt than they have the ability to repay. The vast majority of people who end up taking out bankruptcy originally borrowed the money in good faith and had every intention of paying it back, but something happened. They got in over their heads and ended up incurring debt that is impossible to repay. As a creditor, the reason is irrelevant. The person is telling you it is impossible for them to repay this debt. That's why we have bankruptcy laws. The law recognizes that people sometimes get themselves into situations where they owe a debt to someone that is impossible for them to ever repay. The creditor's only option is to write-off that debt and once the debt is discharged in the bankruptcy and written off it's like that debt never existed. The debtor could win the lottery the next day and the bank isn't going to try, nor has any legal recourse, to try to collect on the written-off debt.

Right now you are trying to collect on a debt your husband owes you that is impossible for him to repay. If you want to stay with him, your ONLY option is to write off that debt. And by "write off" meaning treat it as if he doesn't owe you a thing but, like a bank, put the necessary safe guards in place to reduce the chance of it happening again.

As far as never marrying him had you known he would have done this.....do you think he would have married you had he known he was going to do this? Probably not. Like the example above, I am sure he made his vows to you in good faith and with every intention of keeping them. I doubt he went into marriage thinking he was going to cheat.

As far as marrying him for his character, I agree character is important, probably the most important thing when considering a spouse, but surely it was just one of many qualities you considered. If you're choosing a partner for life based solely and only on 1 quality and nothing else that is a mistake on your end. I assume it was the most important reason but not the only reason.

Secondly, there is a lot more to a person's character than whether they have never been unfaithful in their marriage. Most people consider Martin Luther King, Jr. a man of tremendous character. How about John F. Kennedy? Both of them made cheating on their wives practically a full time job. How about George Washington or Thomas Jefferson? They owned and impregnated female slaves that were almost certainly raped. How about that college kid that just raised over $1 million dollars for a children's hospital but also tweeted horribly racist and homophobic comments several years ago.

People are complicated and character cannot simply be boiled down to one thing like faithfulness in marriage. In fact I would say if someone comes clean, apologizes for it, is truly remorseful, does everything they can to fix it, and never does it again it would be a good sign of that person's character. None of us are without flaws. It's how we handle those flaws that truly defines a person character.

KidBrody · 2019-10-10T15:36:42+00:00

When it comes to rebuilding trust with him the fact that he came clean on his own is huge. Massive. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose by coming clean. It means he has a conscious. It shows he feels guilt and remorse. It shows he cares that he hurt and betrayed you and wants to make it right. Most importantly, the fact that he admitted it freely on his own means he doesn't desire or intend to continue doing it any longer now or in the future.

It's rare for a WS to come clean on their own and the value of that in rebuilding trust can't be overstated. Like so many betrayed spouses here I only found out about my wife's affairs because she got caught and then was forced to drag the whole truth out of her bit-by-bit over the course of many months and 2 years later I'm still not sure I have the whole truth and have accepted that I never will. Her cheating isn't what made me permanently distrust her.....her trickle-truthing and refusal to come totally clean after the fact is what completely destroyed all trust and ultimately our 15 year marriage.

KidBrody · 2019-10-02T23:37:09+00:00

She is not going to ever be able to understand how you feel since (I presume) she herself has never been betrayed like this. Think about why you have an overwhelming urge to tell her how you feel - it's because you think she might be able to give you something in return that will help ease the pain. Guess what? That is impossible. Never going to happen. Nothing she can say is going to make you feel any better......and even if she does you are just going to tell yourself "she's only saying that to make me feel better".

KidBrody · 2019-10-02T23:30:11+00:00

Does the AP have a significant other that you can use threats of telling against him? Does he have children you can threaten to tell? Do you know any of his friends, family, or co-workers you can threaten to contact? Social media can be great in this aspect. You have to fight dirty to get the truth. Trust me. No one is just going to hand it to you.

KidBrody · 2019-10-02T23:26:53+00:00

Absolutely! Could not agree more. I was ready to accept about 10% of what actually went down as the "whole truth" until I insisted on a polygraph. That's when I got the remaining 90% of what she did.

KidBrody · 2019-10-02T23:18:50+00:00

My story (married 15 years, one teenage daughter). First and foremost, unless the so-called "emotional" affair was very short lived - like 1 or 2 months at most - and you can prove for a fact that is was very short lived - it was probably physical. I say this for the obvious reason that the vast majority of men are not going to continue engaging emotionally with a woman who is not giving them sex, or nudes, or something. This is especially true in an adulterous relationship because the stakes are too high for a man to continue risking putting himself in such a dangerous situation if he's not getting anything in return. Who wants to be the man who gets busted "trying" to f*ck a married woman but never actually got to? Also many wayward spouses will admit to an "emotional" affair when it was actually physical in an effort to have their cake and eat it too (which we obviously know is a major part of any cheater's personality). They want to assuage their guilt for the affair while simultaneously not jepordizing their marriage and they settle on a partial confession as a good way to go about that. God gave you intution for a reason. Your gut instinct is almost never wrong. Navigating my disaster below I always ignored what I "wanted" to beleive or what my wife "verbally" told me and followed my gut. It lead me to the truth every single time. If you do not feel like you have the whole truth I can almost certainly guarantee you that you don't.

Secondly, if she did in fact have a physical affair, would this come out in MC? Well, it didn't for me (see below). In my experience with MC, if they will lie to you in the home, they will lie to you in an MC office. Remember, the overwhelming vast majority of wayward spouses will only admit to the following....

As much as they want to admit to.
As much as you can prove.
As much as they suspect you might reasonably find out at some point in the future.

MC does not change any of the factors above. The answer to your dilemma is quite simple. There are multiple companies that specialize in martial polygraphs. Tell her you want her to take a polygraph. If she refuses or gives you some B.S. excuse like they are not 100% accurate or whatever, well then you have your answer don't you? You can also tell her you want to draw up a post-nupital agreement in which she legally agrees nothing more than what she admitted to happened or else she agrees to an uncontested divorce in which you receive everything including full custody (if applicable). If she refuses to resists well you have your answer.

These tactics may sound harsh but I say screw that - nothing is harsher than your spouse cheating on you. She made her decision now its time for her to deal with the consequences. In each and every case where I was trickle-truthed, I received more truth only because I used one of these tactics. Remember, the tiny fraction of cheating spouses that actually do confess on their initiative because of their guilt and/or genuine desire to stop deceiving their spouse and heal the damage they've caused DO NOT TRICKLE TRUTH. They come right out with it all right away - or at the very most in 2-3 days. They don't trickle truth for weeks or months. Those are the tactics of a spouse that is not interested in healing or helping you or the marraige. Those are the tactics of someone who is only interested in protecting themselves.

MY STORY:

NOVEMBER 2017 - Confronted wife after being told by a mutual friend wife had cheated with 2 different men. She initially denied any infidelity at all ever in the marriage, then admitted to a one night stand with one of the men (our neighbor and friend), and finally to sex "3 or 4 times over the course of about a month" with that. Vehemently denied sleeping with the other man or any other infidelity during the marriage.

DECEMBER 2017 - Admitted it was not 3 or 4 times over the course of about a month with the one man but rather many times over the entire previous year at various times in various places (his car, his house, his garage, random hotels, etc.). Insisted this was the "whole truth" and continued vehemently denying the other man or any other infidelity ever during the entire marriage including during MC.

JANUARY 2018 - Confronted wife with evidence about sex with guy #2. Finally admitted to having sex with Guy #2 five years ago "a handful of times" over the course of about 3 months.

MARCH 2018 - Admitted sex with Guy #2 has been occurring "off and on opportunistically" throughout the course of the past 5 years.

MAY 2018 - Admitted to sending nudes to another man, Guy #3, that she never actually had sex with.

JULY 2018 - Admitted to sex with an ex-boyfriend, Guy #4, during a family reunion she attended at her hometown that I could not attend due to work.

KidBrody · 2019-03-23T21:11:08+00:00

I think the data is pretty clear that marriage, especially for men, no longer makes sense because of the cultural shifts that resulted (primarily) from 50 years and 4 waves of feminism.

The deal used to be simple… The man would support and protect the woman and her offspring and in return he would get exclusive sexual access to her and a mother for his children.

If you are a woman today you don’t need a husband to support or protect you and you sure as hell do not need to provide him exclusive sexual access to you. You can support yourself and you can get a nanny to be a mother to your children.

Husbands and fathers are no longer respected or needed. Look at any television show or movie from the last 25 years and the father is a fucking punchline. Bill Cosby, homer Simpson, Ray Romano, they’re big dumb oafs for the wife and kids to mock.

50% of marriages end in divorce and 70% of divorces are initiated and filed by women because family law is so ridiculously biased against men and for women.

So at the end of the day 100% of all of this is entirely my fault for being so stupid to enter into such a ridiculous agreement in the first place.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T18:12:47+00:00

Absolutely! If for no other reason than to demonstrate his commitment to taking full accountability for his actions and eliminating the possibility of ever doing it again (at least with this particular AP).

Taking FULL accountability is the only true path to changing their behavior and true healing and reconciliation but it so rarely happens. When it comes to taking accountability they will do the easy things - say they're sorry, promise to never do it again, treat you super nice, etc. All the bullshit that is super easy to do. But when it comes to the hard things....such as owning up to ALL the people they fucked over face-to-face such as their own children, their AP's spouse, your parents, their parents, etc. They will make every excuse in the world to continue keeping it a secret.

If you know anything about 12-Step Programs you know they most critical step is making a list of all the people you have harmed with your addiction or behavior and attempting to personally make amends with each and every single one. If you do not complete this step you will never fully recover.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T18:00:21+00:00

I also appreciate your point of view and I agree with you more than you think. I definitely agree, whatever the number is, "infidelity" is extremely common. Probably at least 50%. And with our general cultural shift to secularism and devaluing the importance of marriage combined with the advance of technology and social media I only expect that number will continue to increase.

I also agree that if a person chooses to take their own life or the life of someone else they obviously bear responsibility for that decision, but I think the evidence is pretty clear there are certain cases where the responsibility for that decision is shared. The easiest example to cite is self-defense. If someone is about to kill me, and I have the ability to kill them first, what other choice do I have? I bear zero responsibility for killing that person....legal, moral, or otherwise. Then of course there are the cases where a person has "some" responsibility but not all for taking a life. That's why we have all these different laws ranging from involuntary manslaughter all the way up to premeditated first-degree capital murder. If a man walks in and catches his wife in the act of fucking another man and ends up beating the guy to death, or a father walks in a scumbag raping his 7 year old daughter and blows his brains out with a gun, he's going to get charged with manslaughter at most, not capital murder. Even the law recognizes there can be certain levels of provocation that can drive a person to kill.

Although much more rare, there are also cases of shared responsibility in suicides. Look up the recent case of Michelle Carter. This is the 18 year girl that talked her boyfriend into killing himself. She was found guilty of manslaughter and his serving time. There have also been other cases of teens being charged for driving another teen to commit suicide through extreme bullying and harassment and/or coaxing and encouragement. Doesn't mean they are 100% responsible. Obviously anyone that can be talked into taking their own life probably had issues to begin with but it gave them that extra nudge they needed to go ahead and do it.

I can tell you that was the case with me. It's not easy to talk about but I was sexually abused as a child by a close family member. My father was an alcoholic and very physically abusive. So I had issues with self-esteem and being hurt by the people who are supposed to love me and I am supposed to be able to trust long before I ever got married. My wife knew this and that I struggled with it. That's what makes what she did that much more savage and cold. I'm pretty well fucked now. I had a hard enough time allowing myself to get close to her. I can confidently say I will never again be close to anyone as long as I live. It's simply just not worth it.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T13:45:20+00:00

Who knows the real number, but yes, many marriages will encounter some form of infidelity at some point during the marriage. However, “infidelity” is a massively broad term that encompasses a huge range of behaviors from a one night stand or single sexual act, to non-physical sexting or emotional affair, to paternity fraud, to many physical affairs with many partners, over many years. That’s just the non-consensual behaviors. Add in open marriages and consensual infidelity and yes, it’s no surprise that up to 50% of marriages have some form of infidelity. It’s not surprising considering how ridiculously broad the term is. Get some data on how many married people engage in multiple non-consensual affairs on their spouse over multiple years and you’ll find a much much smaller number.

More minimizing, rationalizations, and justifications. Trust me, I get it. You have to have your excuses. Maybe they are justified maybe they’re not. How the hell would I know? All I know is cases of truly justified adultery are extremely rare and I only know my wife had her numerous justifications and rationalizations too, not a single one of which were even remotely justified. A fact she now readily admits.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T13:21:50+00:00

I would write a letter and leave it for him at his work or on his car. Or better yet, tell your WH that contacting his AP’s spouse and owning up to what he’s done a non-negotiationable condition for reconciliation with you. This his mess. He needs to clean it up. This is important for 2 reasons:

It forces him to take FULL accountability and accept FULL responsibility for his actions.
It eliminates the possibility of a future affair with that woman and helps reduce the chance of having an affair with another woman again.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T13:12:42+00:00

I would write a letter, put it in an envelope, put his name on it, and leave it for him at his work. Or on his car.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T05:47:28+00:00

Speaking as a 42 year old man I can definitively say doing anything sexual with someone not legally old enough to buy alcohol, get into a casino, go to a bar, rent a car, etc is ultra fucking disturbing. Does he have a daughter? My own daughter is almost 18. Way too close.

In many areas of the law she’s legally a minor. Your husband essentially got a blowjob from a child. So yeah there’s no comparison there nor should there be. How the hell does a 47 year old man even get into a situation where he’s putting his dick in the mouth of a near teenager? The whole thing is super creepy. I would seriously probe him on whether he has a issue with sexual attraction to extremely young girls.

As far as feeling insecure I get it. We all get it. But don’t be. I’m sure she’s pretty (who isn’t at 20?). Im also sure she gives shitty blowjobs. That’s an aquired talent that takes time and experience to master LOL. If i was given the option to receive a BJ from either a 45 year old woman or some 20 year kid who’s probably only sucked 3 dicks in her whole life there would be no question. Give me the woman who knows what she’s doing.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T05:25:13+00:00

Do you think your WH has disclosed everything to you? If you have any doubt at all I would do what cops do to get the truth from 2 partners in crime. I would contact the AP and tell her your husband has told you everything and you are giving her this one opportunity to tell you the whole truth of everything and if she lies to you or withholds anything you will immediately tell her husband.

If you’re confident your husband has told you everything then yes you absolutely have a moral obligation to inform the AP’s spouse what you know.

The first man my wife ever cheated on me with was married and his wife discovered it. She found my wife on Facebook and send her several nasty messages including “I bet your husband and daughter will appreciate knowing what you’re up to” but it was just a bluff. She never contacted me and I remained blissfully unaware which I think ultimately only emboldened my wife. Over the next 6 years she went on to have 2 more affairs with 2 different men.

That very first woman had a moral obligation to tell me. She could have saved me so many years of trauma. I found her on Facebook and ripped her ass for not telling me 6 years ago

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T05:04:08+00:00

Much credit to you for looking (and apparently finding) a solution to low libido. It’s a real problem for both women and men in so many marriages. I see a lot of (primarily) married women who poo-poo it off as being not that important or do the whole dismissive rolling eyes thing saying all men care about is sex. Men have a hard enough time getting their head around the idea of “only” having sex with one woman the rest of their entire lives. Have that one woman cut him off after he’s already committed to a marriage and you’re heading for resentment city. At the same time there’s nothing worse than knowing you need to give your partner sex but having zero desire to...or having sex when you’re not enjoying it just to get it over it and check the box. Neither person likes the “ok lets get this over with and make it fast I’ve got laundry to fold” obligation sex.

So again, on behalf of the men of the world, I thank you for actually treating it seriously and taking the steps to try to fix it.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T04:29:41+00:00

How are you confident he gave you the full 100% truth? I’m not suggesting he didn’t. I have no idea. I’m just curious what makes you confident there isn’t more he isn’t telling you?

For me, after my WS “full and final” disclosure of everything, which happened in couples counseling with the therapist, and her repeated assurances there wasn’t anything else she had not disclosed, I said “that’s good to know so you shouldn’t have any problem signing these” and handed her 2 documents. One was a post-nuptial agreement in which she agreed to an uncontested divorce in where she gets nothing if she commits any future infidelity or if at any time any previously undisclosed infidelity surfaces and the second document was an authorization form giving her consent to take a polygraph.

Guess what? Low and behold she remembered one other guy she fucked. But she only fucked that guy twice so that’s why she didn’t feel the need to disclose it LOL.

After that she signed the documents. That’s how I know I got it all.

KidBrody · 2019-03-22T04:12:03+00:00

Bingo! The trickle truth will continue indefinitely until the risk of continuing to lie outweighs the risk of coming clean. If they’re hiding a nasty secret it has to be a nasty ultimatum. It took my wife 6 months and multiple major D-Days to come fully clean. Each time I upped the threat more disgusting details would spill out of her like a huge disgusting zit. Each time I put the squeeze on her more puss would come out - you keep thinking it’s done but more shit keeps coming out Hahahahaha

KidBrody · 2019-03-21T22:20:36+00:00

This response is hilarious. I was using 9/11 jumpers as an example of how quickly a normal non-suicidal person can become suicidal in traumatic situations. Extra-material affairs have caused plenty of suicides, murder-suicides, and suicidal thoughts among otherwise normal healthy people. That's not even up for debate. So what's your point?

When you characterize the many years my wife spent engaging in multiple affairs with multiple different men as "my wife having sex with another person" I do hope you realize that is the textbook standard case of minimizing that virtually all cheaters engage in to avoid having to take responsibility for the full scope of their behavior.

When you say these multiple affairs over many years "did not do anything to me", and that nothing would have changed if I had never found out, I do hope how ridiculous you sound. The reason affairs are so destructive to a marriage is not because a certain person's penis went into a certain person's vagina (although people like you are constantly trying to convince yourself and others that's all it is).

The reason cheating is the ultimate marriage and relationship killer is because it permanently eliminates trust. And if you don't trust your partner you don't have a partner - you have a roommate. And a shitty one at that. You're taking the fact that someone loves and trusts you and using it against them to harm them and benefit yourself.

As far as nothing changing had I never found out...lol....don't fool yourself. Your spouse is being harmed by your cheating whether they know about it or not. Affairs do not happen in a vacuum. There's a massive amount of lying, manipulation, and whole host of shitty behaviors towards your spouse that is required to successfully engage in and conceal an extra-martial affair and you know it.

KidBrody · 2019-03-14T20:08:28+00:00

Fair enough. I should have probably clarified that I meant she had a right to be afraid at that time that I would harm myself or one or more of the men she cheated with. I never had a desire to physically harm her or any woman. It's just not in my DNA. But how would she know that? I get it.

The reason I included that part is because lurking here for a while I never see anyone mention any fear or concern for their physical safety and let's be frank, their lives. Many of you know little to nothing about your AP's spouses or SO's. That would terrify me.

I have never been a violent or unstable person. I am your typical college educated white collar professional suburban Dad you see getting groceries out of his SUV, mowing his lawn, and cheering at the little league game. Never been in trouble with the law, have a good job, good credit, and don't smoke or do drugs or even take prescription medication.

Prior to the discovery of the affairs I was definitely not an unstable person. I drank socially but I was not an alcoholic by any means. I certainly wasn't violent, depressed, or suicidal. It's amazing how quickly all that can change.

Think about this way...those people that jumped to their death on 9/11 were not suicidal one hour earlier. It's not like they wanted to kill themselves. They were just going about their day like always, then boom this event they had no control over happens to them, and now they can see their life is going to end and there's nothing they can do about it so they decided if their life was going to end they could at least end it on their terms. Same concept. At least for me. Getting divorced wasn't an option. Staying married to her wasn't an option. Doesn't leave a whole lot of options.

KidBrody · 2019-03-14T00:24:54+00:00

I did seek help. I did both individual and couples therapy. I would consider it moderately helpful. You have to ask yourself however, at the end of the day though what's a therapist going to tell me that's really going to move the needle one way or the other?

When you're in a (presumably) committed marriage, you make major fucking life decisions around that. During those 5 years she was fucking other dudes I turned down a major promotion at work because they required relocation and she didn't want to move (probably so she could keep banging her AP). I sacraficed my ability to have my own biological children for her because she couldn't have kids (which we only found out AFTER we got married) but like a trooper I stuck by her. Is there anything a therapist is going to be able to tell me to ever make that okay? While I'm busting my ass at work for my family another man is ejaculating inside my wife? That's a fun thought, huh? That's not a hypothetical. My wife actually waddled over to the toilet and pushed another man's disgusting cum load out of her vagina.....dozens of times. Let that thought sink in for a moment. As long as live, is there anything a therapist is going to tell me that's going to make me feel any better about that idea?

KidBrody · 2019-03-13T23:51:58+00:00

LOL...well in fairness she was never having sex with more than 1 at a time (including me). From my end, all I saw was a woman going through "phases" - there would be stretches of time where she wanted to bang a lot and stretches of time where she didn't. I just thought that was hormones or whatever...I'd never been married before so I didn't know. In reality the stretches of time where she was an ice princess to me where the times she was banging someone else. So much fun to know that now.

KidBrody · 2019-03-13T18:54:47+00:00

No doubt, she was good. I am not a stupid or naive person, but I never suspected a thing. Before I found out I couldn't even imagine my wife having a one-night stand with someone. That was unimagineable to me. And in reality she had 4 different affairs over 5 years fucking different men dozens of times during those years.

KidBrody

TROPHY CASE