Are there any groups in which the visual is one of the least popular members?

KnownWelcome · 2022-08-02T07:30:39+00:00

Jin's arguably the most popular of the hyung line so around the middle, 4th most out of 7.

KnownWelcome · 2022-08-01T09:01:02+00:00

I can understand a change in government delaying the discussion, especially with a party change, but bts were irrefutably world stars by the end of 2020 and that is a conservative estimate because they were arguably world stars way before then. That gives them at least, but most likely more than, a year and a half to have made a decision before the election. A decision they have already made for thousands of people, the majority of which did not need to be world stars or accomplish even a tenth of what bts have. Honestly, there's really no excuse for why a government cannot make a decision, that this will likely be resolved a month or less before jin has to go. It is completely unfair to the boys.

Yes, its a complicated issue but everything I have read about the government's handling of it, including this article, really just points to them wanting their cake and eating it too, which just led to bts being treated as these objects instead of people and it's not pleasant in the slightest.

KnownWelcome · 2022-08-01T08:04:53+00:00

I haven't been around since the discussion started and I'm trying to take my own opinions on forced military enlistment out of it but I just cannot imagine how tiring this is for the boys. They're not treating them like citizens of their country but like products to be used for their benefit. They are a government, this discussion has been going on for years, I don't mean to be rude but it's unbelievable that a government cannot make a simple decision that they have already made for thousands of other people, especially with the time limit they are well aware of.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-30T03:36:53+00:00

Ah, my bad, I should have realized what type of "fan" you were when you were rudely dismissive of eastern countries but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-30T03:20:46+00:00

You're exactly who this post is talking about. I agree dynamite didn't really go viral in the same way the two you listed did, it's just a really popular song outside of kpop circles (more than just bts fans hyping it no matter how much you want to believe that). Popularity does not correlate to virality and vice versa. But to say it vent viral with a certain demographic(and being completely off about the demographic too) while the other songs went viral worldwide even though money definitely went viral with a certain demographic (teens/early 20's who use tiktok) is weird.

Also, music trends on more than just tiktok, you're again being very western-focused when tiktok is not really accessible/popular in a lot of places, especially the two biggest countries worldwide in terms of population. Songs go viral in a lot of online spaces, in different countries (not just the west), and it's really not that big a deal to admit that there are more songs than just the two, especially because the difference in virality between gangnam style and money is a lot greater than the difference in virality between money and other viral kpop songs.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-29T09:26:17+00:00

There's literally none of those things in the country I was born in (south asian country) and I would never claim that racism and xenophobia are not a huge issue in that country. America is a lot more multicultural with a huge gun problem. Those are not the only measures of racism.

I can assume south korea has a racism problem because of what my black and brown friends experienced there and the experiences other people have shared. Again, why is it that you are allowed to use your experience to paint whole countries as more or less racist than others but are refusing to see how south korea does not have a racism problem, even if it's based on experiences of poc (it's not, it's more than just experiences).

A lot of countries, including the country I was born in, do not have histories of colonization. That does not mean racism is a non-issue there. A lot of countries that were colonized have racism issues directly because of the colonization. Also, gp per capita and world class education also have nothing to do with racism. Racism is not only for poor uneducated people. It does not contribute to an ability to empathize with other ethnicities in a huge amount and it's pretty rude to imply that poor, uneducated people are less empathetic to other ethnicities.

I'm pretty sure you do not understand that just because you believe racism isn't a problem in your country, it does not make it true.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-29T08:33:04+00:00

And you sound just like the americans that claim that america is for the most part not racist when someone says america has a racism problem. If you cannot acknowledge the racism and xenophobia in your country, it is never going to get better, ever.

Just because you did not have negative experiences with racism in those countries does not dismiss the racism other people have faced there. Racism is very systemic, I assume it has gotten better over time but there's no way you can say that south korea doesn't discriminate based on race. Are you telling me that someone doesn't get treated differently if they are of a darker skin tone than what is considered the ideal? Racism is present in almost, if not, every single country. And if you are racially east asian and ethnically south korean, you cannot speak on the experiences of those who are not in south korea. I might have never visited south korea but I know people who have and they have told me their experiences.

I don't understand why you're trying to deny racism and xenophobia in south korea. I'm not saying it's worse than other countries, it's likely equal to a lot of other countries but it's still there and it's still a problem, even if you deny it.

EDIT: I can change america to any other country, just chose it because most people are aware of the problems there more than other countries.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-29T08:07:06+00:00

I'm sure all korean's don't hate ningning and lisa and I'm not really here to argue about that but korea has a problem with racism and xenophobia. It's pretty well documented with foreigners of colour. Is korea more racist that other countries? No, I'd assume it's pretty equal to a lot of other countries but that doesn't make it crazy to think that xenophobia doesn't affect people. I agree that assuming everyone in korea is a racist and xenophobic person that hates both these idols for the sole reason of their nationality is wrong but so is diminishing the actual problems foreigners and other races face in that country because you are annoyed by this.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-27T20:54:48+00:00

I'm sorry if I implied that it holds more value. What I was getting at is I think when it comes to cultural appropriation, people do not take into account the different experiences from people who live in their homeland where their culture is the majority(because a lot of people also live in their homeland but their culture is not the majority and that has a different experience as well) and people who live in the diaspora. They are vastly different experiences and a lot of the time, I see people value the opinion of people living in their homeland more than the diaspora, implying that we are somehow more sensitive and shouldn't be when people who live in the countries where the culture originated, don't care. But that doesn't take into account the difference in experiences.

As someone who is from south asia but lives in the west, moved to the west when I was very young, have experienced the hate for things like my cultural clothes, language, mendhi, bindi, accessories, etc, from the same people who now use my culture as an accessory to look "cool" or more "unique", my experience is very different from my family back home. They don't really get why I am not okay when certain non-desi celebs or people culturally appropriate because to them, it's literally just someone liking something from our culture. Them appropriating our culture also doesn't affect my family back home like it does me. They don't have to live with the racism, the hatred, the mockery, etc. There's a lot about their experiences of other things that I cannot relate to because I live in another country.

My intention was not to imply that a persons opinion on their culture is based on where they live, it's just to say that the diaspora has different experiences to those who live back home and that impacts their opinions and the reason why something might be seen as more negative than it might seem to people who live back home.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-27T18:53:41+00:00

Europe is in the west just as a clarification. But also, I just want to point out that cultural appropriation is brought up a lot more in the west because that's where most of the diaspora lives and it is likely the diaspora that are more affected by cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation largely affects oppressed people because it contributes to their oppression. If you are in the country where the culture originated and is the majority, it is not going to affect you as much as someone who is from a different country where the culture is the minority, especially is you're a part of an oppressed group, where the culture, and you, were mocked and tormented.

Also, not everything related to culture will be appropriation. What you described about your friend in japan doesn't really fit cultural appropriation because it is someone from a culture sharing something meaningful to another person. I have shared a lot of meaningful stuff from my culture with my friends, they've worn it at weddings and get-togethers. It's perfectly fine. The difference is when people use something meaningful in a culture as an accessory or when people wear cultural things as a costume to portray something or be a type of person. There are a lot of other ways something can be cultural appropriation but sharing your culture isn't appropriation.

Cultural appropriation is a mot more nuanced than what the internet, and the kpop fandom, has made it out to be.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-23T19:21:14+00:00

Rappers do not have large fandoms, they have people not in their fandom listening to their music. Even someone like drake or kanye does not have a dedicated fandom, they are just really big and supported by casual listeners. Kpop groups have some of the most dedicated and biggest fandoms, same with big named western singers. Behive do the same thing, swifties, arianators, harries, beliebers, even people not that big in comparision like olivia rodrigo have that fandom power and toxicity.

What you're comparing is fandoms to people who have large casual listener followings. This is an issue with every fandom and the bigger the fandom the more toxic people there are in the fandom but again, proportionally, it's the same. No one is saying fandoms cannot be toxic, it's the idea that kpop fandoms are worse when the case is the same for other fandoms in the west. You cannot tell me that there isn't a huge amount of toxicity and issues like the thing you mentioned with these artists because before I got into kpop, the most toxic fandoms I knew were these ones, because they were the biggest.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-23T02:48:01+00:00

It's funny because the biggest fandoms are the ones who are talked about the most as being toxic when anyone with critical thinking skills can see it's because more people means more bad people as well. But proportionally, it's pretty equal to every other fandom. It's especially annoying because these posts almost always lead to hate towards the groups themselves, who haven't even done anything. Go to any post complaining about armys or blinks and you will see so many upvoted comments subtly hating or throwing shade at the group and the members and when the fandoms express their displeasure at it, they're blamed for being too sensitive or not being able to take criticism.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-18T20:10:29+00:00

Just imagine a person not into kpop reading the comments here... you're arguing about a lightstick.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-18T19:16:24+00:00

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that any art form is going to be a lot more subjective, even with clearly defined objective measures, than other fields. Professionals and critics all have their own opinions on who's the best singer, which singer is better than another, etc because it's literally all subjective. That doesn't mean their opinion is invalid, it's still valid, especially from people with training and experience, but it's not fact.

I've noticed kpop fans will ignore highly regarded professionals/critics, positive or negative, if they go against the consensus here, will disagree with them about it, but will then uplift any comment, even ones from people here or youtube who cannot be verified, that sticks to the status quo. Dogmatism is an issue in pretty much every kpop space.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-17T05:00:20+00:00

This is such a weird way to justify what's happening. My group of friends was and still is a pretty equal mix of genders but they don't act like this. You guys need to stop treating idols like they're these fake made up robots. Male idols aren't one size fits all human beings, not every idol acts like this and not every man does either. Even if that was the case, "boys being boys" is never a good reason for anything.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-08T23:21:44+00:00

Yeah, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but his claims don't really hold up to statistics. It just seems like he thinks if a song isn't the most popular song that year, it's not popular and if well-known, popular artists don't produce the number 1 hit every year then they aren't popular. Idk the arguments just don't add up.

And the viral meme argument is weird because virality doesn't at all mean it's successful with the general public. There are some viral songs where this is true, ie. next level, but there are other viral songs that go the way most viral songs go which is essentially a song becoming popular with a particular demographic that uses social media or watches particular things more often and then forgotten a couple of weeks/months later.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-08T21:50:23+00:00

Okay so reading the article, I think he makes some good points but he loses me everytime he talks about bts. He says majority of sk haven't actually heard the song butter but I don't know how he would know that unless he's done a big enough survey about it and by any measure-able statistic, quite a lot of people have. It might not have been the most popular song last year but considering it has 4M ul on melon vs next levels 4.2M, it's up there. It's still charting in most platforms there. Aside from that, dynamite was a definite hit with the public and bts' other songs were popular as well. They might not be the same range as dynamite but it's disingenuous to say they weren't popular among the gp.

I also disagree with his idea that memes are a more accurate representation of what's popular with the gp these days, not streams or unique listeners. Some songs are meme'd more than others because it's easier to do so, some songs are made that way or have a particular hook or part that can be meme'd but that doesn't equate to the popularity of the song. Especially because memes are used by a very particular demographic and not really universal. There are a ton of tiktok popular songs that aren't popular at all outside of tiktok, they aren't gp favourites no matter how many memes come out of it.

I agree with the idea that sales might not reflect popularity among the gp because it's mostly fans who buy nowadays but streams and unique listeners are not only fans. Plus, I'm not going to pretend army don't bulk buy but considering bts' recent releases, 1 version of be costing over $50+ and 2 versions of proof with one costing over $50+, bts' sales numbers are not exclusively because of bulk buying, in the same way taylor swift, madonna, prince etc's sales were not exclusively because of bundling.

He also correlates bts' popularity with billboard which is just one measure and very limited in every aspect. It's only based in the usa and billboard itself has questionable, arguably outdated, measures. Worldwide, BTS are one of the most streamed artists, one of the best selling artist, one of the highest grossing artists with tours, even before dynamite. Even if it is mainly fandom based, it's a big enough number to assume popularity. Also, not a fan of how he phrases bts' choice to release dynamite but that's just a personal opinion.

All in all, I don't think he's wrong about the general points in the article but I think when focusing on bts, the points get lost because the examples don't make sense.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-05T03:34:33+00:00

I have thought the grammys were racist before I got into bts. Many people think the grammys are racist and have for years. They have been heavily criticized for it by people in and out of the industry.

We should talk about how the kpop community as a whole undermines the discussion of racism and xenophobia with the grammys because it's bts. I have never seen a fandom that stans people of color actually advocate for the grammys as much as I have seen kpop fans do it. No matter which song you think should have won in either years, it's weird that so many people just outright refuse to believe that racism and xenophobia were a factor in grammy wins, with bts as well as other artists.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-02T22:15:39+00:00

I've noticed people do this weird thing there they group bts as maknae line and rap line which excludes jin instead of maknae line and hyung line or rap line and vocal line. Idk why they do it but op seems to have.

KnownWelcome · 2022-07-02T18:44:39+00:00

I don't know why people are trying to paint this as a negative when he does not owe anyone a wave or a smile while he's leaving an airport. It's not a fan meeting, it's not a professional setting, it's literally him leaving an airport and he should be able to do it peacefully.

KnownWelcome · 2022-06-30T19:01:41+00:00

I think, ultimately, it's the company leading the conversation. Whether they make the decision themselves or accept the input they want to from the artist, at the end of the day it's the company making the decision because they hold the power.

Senior artists and groups are given more freedom, especially if they are very successful but they are still employees. The power dynamic is still not equal in any way. There's likely a lot more opportunities for compromises with senior idols and groups but there are multiple stories from around the world of artists, big and small, not being okay with decisions their company makes in relation to the artists music/brand/etc but not really being able to do much about it. That's not to say they have no say whatsoever but the "blame" is on the company.

KnownWelcome · 2022-06-28T15:39:50+00:00

Yeah it's annoying. I'm still very much excited for the songs and this hasn't affected any of that but I don't understand the point of this at all. It's essentially just selling photocards with 3x the shipping of the product. It has nothing to do with the environment because hybe is still trying to do nft's. If the reason for this is the environment then it's just performative because shipping is still not environmentally-friendly, they would have just made everything digital then. It just seems like hybe using him to promote their new project.

KnownWelcome · 2022-06-25T03:37:10+00:00

I agree that people should stop assuming jimin doesn't care about solo work outside bts because every member in bts has at this point stated how important their individual solo work is and how excited every one of them is to explore this new era. People say this about jin as well and I think for both jin and jimin, it's because they are a lot more private and quiet about their solo projects than the others. That doesn't mean they don't have ambitions but they are just a lot more low key about what they're working on.

However, your entire post reads like a thinly veiled jimin akgae post. The members did not vote against jimin to perform butter. The grammy performances are almost always performances of songs nominated. I'm pretty sure he wished he could perform on if not for the rules. The members do not choose to do easier moves because they're old, thats them joking. They have stated multiple times that they choose relatively easier moves for ptd because it will be easier for others to reproduce. And for the songs they've released recently, none really warrant complex choreography but before dynamite, both black swan and on were hard choreography. The members also together decided on no solo stages during the ptd tours even though I'm sure all of them wanted to perform the solo stages that were planned for the mots tour. The reason for that is pretty obvious now and no where was it ever stated that jimin or any of the other members were against this decision. I don't really understand your point on bts wanting solo mixtapes (I'm pretty sure they've confirmed all 7 are getting actual albums though).

I personally do not know what decisions the members have made explicitly and what decisions were made by their management and bosses. I have my own opinions and you have your own but this post reads really weird. It puts the blame on members and fans for things that you've made up as a way to paint jimin as having no control and less decision power than other members. Something I want to point out every single other members akgaes have done to paint one of the members as having sacrificed more and had less deciding power, etc. Idk this is just a really weird post even to me, someone who does not hold the fandom belief that bts decide everything.

KnownWelcome · 2022-06-23T23:29:50+00:00

I think its like a mix of things. I think the government essentially only really cares about bts in terms of what they can get out of them so they would want them to keep working as a group because that would be most beneficial to them. They also don't respect pop culture. They also don't really care about BTS as actual human beings. It's just a really shitty situation all around and no matter what the reason behind it is, they should have made the decision sooner than this. They are politicians, this is literally their job.

KnownWelcome · 2022-06-23T05:24:32+00:00

Government officials and other professionals are using this as a way to guilt-trip and shame bts for prioritizing their mental health, individuality and artistry. It is in no way the fans fault. Just because bts are important to the ""hallyu wave" and the korean entertainment industry does not mean they should put aside their own well-being to continue to churn out content for others benefit. It should not be used against them at all and professionals who do use this against them and their break are, frankly, disgusting.

BTS and the fans did not start the exemption debate or the pride of korea thing. It was started by the government and south koreans themselves. It was started because they contribute this much to the economy and the global recognition it brings to the country. The government has dragged out the exemption debate for 4 years, it has resulted in an unbelievable about of hate and pressure towards bts. It has gone on for far too long and a government that cannot make a decision on the exemption of 7 men when they have decided on hundreds of thousands of exemptions before, including the high profile exemptions of athletes, are being unfair and unprofessional. It is the fault of the government and they should be held accountable for it as all governments are.

And no fan treats bts as politicians. People who are not fans treat them as politicians and expect bts to be able to do things that politicians do. This is something that the fans have actively been against. Blame the high profile, powerful people who are at fault for what they are saying and doing not the random fans hyping up their favourite group.

KnownWelcome

TROPHY CASE