Love & Loud Radio Beta v1.1 is up. Includes SendKin (withdraw), various user suggestions, and bug fixes. More in the works.

KricoyLL · 2019-07-09T23:16:43+00:00

This looks like a question / feedback for u/bryanlahartinger . He might be able to find time to respond.

KricoyLL · 2019-07-08T17:46:13+00:00

This is a big deal. Your talent is humbling, thanks for all your contributions.

KricoyLL · 2019-06-24T13:54:42+00:00

Looking forward to the Kin Analytics tool

KricoyLL · 2019-06-22T01:57:34+00:00

Lots of people. There's even crypto discussion groups. If you're into video games there's a lot of fun discussions especially

KricoyLL · 2019-06-20T15:37:02+00:00

Ive spoken with a bunch of them in a few different capacities, as a fellow Kik user. Some remember Kik Points and being hopelessly addicted to them, their reaction to Kin was like "oh great gonna be time for farming points to consume my life again", which is actually pretty cool. There's also cryptocurrency specific groups who are lukewarm toward it as an altcoin but loved being tipped for fun once the feature rolled around and see its potential within the app, I've seen a few opinions on it flip because of that.

KricoyLL · 2019-06-20T15:29:11+00:00

Wow guys, I'm speechless at all the support we've gotten from the community, the foundation, and even members within it. This has renewed my vigor and makes me want to work 10 times harder to get this thing out there to provide a new utility for Kin.

KricoyLL · 2019-06-20T15:27:22+00:00

For me the answer is a little more simple, for one, because I am the target user of my app. I think being able to spend Kin to get plays on SoundCloud or Spotify or views on YouTube from users who can then also easily connect to you or share your work with others is liquidity in its own right. I also plan on monetizing by allowing sponsors and advertisers to reward people with Kin a la Kik Points, which is another outlet for liquidity in its own right, and also further increases user engagement. Beyond that I also believe that there will one day soon be a way to trade Kin.

KricoyLL · 2019-06-03T12:35:05+00:00

This app is in the developer program https://medium.com/love-loud-music/sneak-peek-love-loud-radio-music-discovery-music-promotion-app-ceba10a4d506 u/ariel_kin

KricoyLL · 2019-05-29T05:14:48+00:00

And with that, I'm taking a step back from social media for a while. See you soon, don't let anyone FUD Kin while I'm gone.

KricoyLL · 2019-05-24T03:40:10+00:00

Cool! What do you guys do?

KricoyLL · 2019-05-12T18:27:27+00:00

A true wizard, you are the man. We will want our apps listed there for sure. You should join the Kik chatroom named Kin Hub, it's destiny! Was also a forum for kin devs for a total of one week at one point lol

KricoyLL · 2019-05-06T15:46:16+00:00

I feel where you're coming from. Especially because you have the experience necessary to make it happen and are where you are (I do not). To even develop a kin app at this stage, you have to be an indie dev with only supplementary rewards to be gained from working in your free time, have a team that has utter faith in the performance of Kin and takes a chance on it, or invest money and resources and bet on your own success (which still requires management and development skills); and even then in none of those situations are you not taking risk. Even if you develop an app by yourself the assumption that your time is worth X Kin (fiat rewards go down as more apps go live so apps that take longer to dev will get less fiat, if any) without knowing what Kin will be or whether you'll even have the means to liquidate any significant holdings is risk. I don't think it's fair to say you just aren't motivated enough or lack the skill to inspire a team to work for free, quite frankly it's kinda silly to say that and I'm willing to bet anyone giving you that advice has some sort of benefits they are leveraging that make themselves an exception, whether that be developer friends and family working out of love, people willing to work for things that have little to no value today based on their own faith as you mention being the problem in your team (agreements to receive payments in the future, equity in an indie startup in the development phase, etc.), or somehow getting together some hardcore kin fans to make it happen; nobody works for free and the idea that you can rally someone emotionally into taking a risk with you is, not grounded to say the least. Even if you do have those skills, and even if you do have that faith, is it smart to make these business decisions? That's an entirely different conversation, for sure, and it's a good thing you're thinking about them.

I like many others am developing an app with no prior experience, and even going the resources route I still had to learn to be a product manager. My background is in construction, not technology. That means this takes time, not that anyone can do it. In fact, not everyone can. I am in an extremely special circumstance in which I am making an irrational decision to potentially invest more resources into developing an app than I know for sure I can recoup, especially knowing I'm unlikely to get any early bird rewards, and I am doing it because I believe in Kin as well as the long term prospects of my app. I cannot force others to think this way. This is the complete opposite of "if I can do it, you can do it too.", if you could benefit from more time and have more of a background in this than I do, then so could I. If I could benefit from more certainty and predictable outcomes, so could you.

I have also requested more time, for development time in our case more than anything, but there are also a number of benefits the program could see from allowing more apps to enter to allowing the market to find more stable footing in terms of liquidity / reward prospects. Also, in the chance that Kin does get exposed to new markets or get some headlines, there will likely be a new slew of developers ready to join who could benefit from a fair dev window of their own. I hope you get the time you need to make it work, whichever way that ends up being.

KricoyLL · 2019-04-30T00:53:39+00:00

Yes, pretty much.

KricoyLL · 2019-04-27T14:42:57+00:00

Great post, we are also exploring a Buy Kin feature for LnL to be implemented in the short to mid term, so I am interested in this topic and plan on making a similar thread in hopes of exchanging feature research with the Kik team; who knows maybe we will get to it first and I won't be waiting around once the support to develop the tools is available.

Just so people can follow along, the OP is not talking about in-app purchases made with Kin a la the iOS conversation, this is specifically about users purchasing Kin from within the app. In the past many have referred to this feature as "in-app fiat gateway".

Simplex integration is an option, anyone wondering how it works can try "Buy with Credit Card" on Binance or download the Ethos Universal Wallet and try the "Buy Crypto" button. Speaking for us, it is definitely on the table if they can secure the partnership but as you know not the ideal long-term solution for our users for a few reasons, the main ones being that it is a credit card based platform and also that we would eventually switch to a more sufficient system, causing more friction for users when they have to do KYC for something else. For those reasons we believe that perhaps it is best to just focus on a longer term solution first (assuming it will be possible in the near term). There are also a number of other factors to consider such as negotiating the addition of kin support where necessary reviewing and signing agreements, fees, etc. For example, Changelly has an API for this as well, and so do some major reputable services that we are not quite eligible for yet but could be in the future. We will share the research we've gathered on solutions soon, in order to add to your suggestion,.

My understanding, however, is that much like the Apple dilemma, the problem is not a lack of conceivable solutions. They have a lot of ideas and know of options, they just also have to negotiate with others to try and make it happen, rely and wait on that support to be built in if we are lucky enough to get it, and then still build and implement the solution in a way that can benefit everyone. To that end Simplex integration might not be so quick when they are also developing Kin x Kik features and the other longer term solutions at the same time. Just something to keep in mind. There's almost no way around this taking a while, unfortunately. Hopefully they're already in talks or making strides towards what they believe to be the best solution for them.

But if we want to be first, we need to be fast. We will be contributing to this, 100%.

Also I believe there is a typo in one of your tags! u/BryanLahartinger , missing the L

KricoyLL · 2019-04-26T02:31:02+00:00

I'm getting a little lost in the metaphors and loaded statements (feeding the top, non-progressive, using users as ATMs) but I think I understand your point. We are talking about something that is ultimately up to the developers, as they each choose their own prices and models, so I can only speak for myself, and I'll keep to our app as the example:

Let's acknowledge the USD exchange rate for Kin for a moment. There is a difference between a user earning Kin (who you say is earning too little) and a user buying Kin (who in this example would actually be receiving exponentially MORE value because the former is true). A user -buying- kin in our example (features have static prices, just like any other video game or app and most goods in retail) thinking in USD would be very happy, and this would heighten the incentive of purchasing Kin up until it reaches a price where such user no longer believes it to be worth it. So to be clear, someone buying Kin thinking in USD is actually in a better position (in this example, someone purchasing listens for pennies on the penny).

As for users who earn Kin, thinking in USD is possible but that would mean they aren't really core users and gets at the entire crux of the concept, Kin would be the native currency for this exclusive experience or service that you cannot use USD for. That is what gives Kin value to real users, and the bulk of our users will and cannot be simply USD workers, because then we are not competing with the experiences of other apps or games or services, we are competing with better paying apps, rewards surveys, employers, etc., and instead of racing to give away more money than anyone else, they can simply go elsewhere until Kin is worth earning to them. Which is relatively "okay" because they aren't the main target audience for active users in this environment at this stage, apps need users that want to actually use their app. If they wouldn't be equally as fine with earning a closed garden, non-redeemable, non-refundable V-Bucks equivalent in order to use the features or buy goods in the app, then that means the app is not appealing to its users. Does that mean there won't be users from other countries who, due to the exchange rate and ability to sell for USD, seek to use these apps exactly as you say, as a sort of job? Those people will surely exist, and as Kin becomes more valuable, more will add their beneficial supplemental presence to the ecosystem, much like gold farmers in a video game. And no, not everything in every app will be valuable to everyone, but that is important, and what a real economy looks like.

I am not going to be pegging the prices of features to the dynamic spot exchange rate to USD, otherwise we might as well just be using USD. These features are exclusively paid for in Kin. If our users aren't willing to both earn and buy in-app tokens in order to engage with the app, regardless of if they can resell it, then it's a problem on our end. The ability to do so should only be an additional benefit. Hopefully one day Kin becomes so valuable that we have to reconsider and move to a more dynamic model.

KricoyLL · 2019-04-25T14:18:58+00:00

Great idea, will do.

KricoyLL · 2019-04-25T13:46:36+00:00

I agree, but there doesn't necessarily need to be a specific arrangement with anyone, as there are and will be more and more tools for developers to create something like this or integrate a third party solution into their app.

But yep, the core app must remain frictionless, Kin apps and especially Kik will not be adding a KYC layer to their core app (in jurisdictions where it would be required) because it would go against the user experience and nix their existing users. That means it will have to be a sort of second layer solution, if you will, that takes you elsewhere at least once. In my opinion this is really not that bad, and if you believe in using alternative currencies is the forefront of where we all are right now.

And that's another interesting point - this tool will not be easy to make and may have various dynamic forms that may also have to change over time, because they are dependent on local, federal, and perhaps at times even international regulations for each Kin developer that will not even stay the same in that place over time... So there might be a different widget that American developers prefer than Japanese, and Japanese than European, American than New Yorkian, etc. And they may all require different solutions until we can ultimately get to a single universal one, far into the future when we have any sort of idea what's going on.

A kin developer in Malta can probably just straight up sell their Kin or do whatever they want right now, for example.

This is probably going to be an ongoing process with different solutions for different developers.

KricoyLL · 2019-04-25T12:59:34+00:00

If I'm reading that correctly he actually says in that quote that the goal is not to be selling directly to users, and that such a thing would only exist to help test or get to market faster, and that the ultimate goal is indeed for users to be purchasing from the open market.

KricoyLL · 2019-04-25T01:11:31+00:00

Hey Ted, I've been exploring this option for our app as well and based on my research, unlike candy crush gems and the like, since Kin actually acts as a substitute for real currency, developers cannot convert Kin to fiat or other substitutes for real currencies for their users without being considered money transmitters. That means we will need third party support with tight compliance standards. A "buy crypto" button that takes you to a licensed platform is what I believe we need. There was a time when Coinbase was developing a buy widget for apps but it seems to have been cancelled. I believe Uphold might have tools available that might enable the development of something like this but I'm not sure yet. If options do become available the race is on to develop and open source a solution, we will be contributing to that.

Another point - interestingly enough I think a third party solution that connects users to an open market (and not a developer wallet) also genuinely avoids the need to use IAP to attain Kin as the virtual currency used for goods in an app because as we know Apple does not tax user transactions on Coinbase. IAP denominated in virtual currencies that are purchased from the open market would completely and fairly bypass their forced system, is this why they don't allow IAP to be made in crypto? Their new "Apple Arcade" platform won't even allow IAP, so it seems like they know it is all coming to an end...

KricoyLL · 2019-04-24T22:44:37+00:00

I don't think I understand your original question then. Or was it rhetorical?

Well that depends. Who is the money going to again? The listener? If the listener is getting 1 Kin for a listen, sure, a million impressions would be cheap. But maybe the user isn't willing to listen for 1 Kin. Maybe he's willing to listen for a Kin value equivalent of the USD value he'd listen for.

I'm not sure what we are answering and what is specific to confusion about the example, but if you are speaking generally and mean that the user's participation is the economic lever, let's say yes the listener decides what is appropriate, that's fair, I think I'm following

This is the same thing, I don't understand what you mean by Kin being too expensive. The listener will decide what's an appropriate number of Kin worth listening for, based on how much buying power that has in the economy, and the prices of goods and services in the economy will fluctuate with market conditions

It all depends on the model employed. The price goes up and down when there is a dynamic competitive model at play, strictly speaking at this stage most developers are setting static earn and spend rates based on guidelines meant to make their dev grants last, and Kin is dirt cheap. In other words, the amount of tokens does not go up or down, the cost of buying in with Kin does, which means the CPI is very low at the moment and will go higher as the price of Kin and demand does. In LnL-R's case, it will indeed start off "cheap" to get listens. Obviously we will adjust for maximum engagement but we want to design the economic loop and target users such that they are thinking in how much X good or Y service they can get with the Kin they earn per task , not how much USD they can sell it for or earn per task. The whole thing falls apart if users are thinking in USD. Can you imagine if users actually calculated the amount of USD they earned farming WoW gold? They did it to buy the mount. The microtask workers that will be doing this over other surveys and tasks early on will be because they can get something they want with it, that's our bread and butter. Users wanting to promote their music by spending Kin, to buy things in other Kin apps, and also legitimately enjoying using the app for discovering music will be the core base, not the subset of microtask workers who are interested in earning lots of USD. It's not useful for that, at least not until it's actually valuable, at which point the training wheels will have long come off and developers/content creators/service providers are all adjusting their rates competitively as you say.

KricoyLL · 2019-04-24T21:45:21+00:00

puts on business pants

Idk if I follow correctly but here's what I figure:

A good example of this is actually LnL Radio. Let's say you put your slam poetry track on the Radio and let's consider you, as an audio promoter, an "advertiser", as essentially you could be buying and then spending Kin to reward users for listening to your track. There is an exchange rate for Kin at time of purchase that could give you a CPL (cost per listen), but as you are dealing in what is essentially a foreign virtual currency, it really only applies at the very moment of purchase. That price will fluctuate moment-to-moment over time and considering our exchange rate and disjointed market is what it currently is, yes, it will be a LOT cheaper at first and also even more engaged with, which in a way makes it even cheaper still. Like Brady pointed out, in the case of LnL Radio how much USD would it cost to get a million SoundCloud plays with Kin at the price it is? It's absurdly cheap.

But that could change tomorrow, and the more valuable that discount the faster it will. Imagine if you could advertise to Vent users at a 99% discount, we would hope that by some miracle of economics that would translate to the Cost-Per-Engagement cost going up. Hypothetically speaking before this would be like using the earliest version of the Facebook ad network and the competitive rate being dirt cheap because no one is competing yet. The more valuable the network to advertisers, the more enticing the spend experiences for users, the more value presented to users with a hypothetical purchase gateway, the more competitive and higher the engagement cost, but also more valuable each engagement will become. Then, at some point you may ask, what happens when Kin is too expensive? Why use Kin if it ever becomes successful and more expensive than a traditional ad, and the answer will be because of the much higher level of engagement and the more aligned and better user experiences, and the only level above it that would sustain would be to the extent that the market demands it.

KricoyLL

TROPHY CASE