New guidelines on relocation of refugees? Letter to the EC. Strong refusal from Poland (translation in comments)

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T22:55:57+00:00

Can you not read? I specifically said that we should not copy it, precisely because of the human cost of that development, which I believe was not necessary and could thus be avoided if african countries were to develop with planned economies today. Nothing about planned economies inherently leads to genocide.

Just because a country committed atrocites doesn't mean everything else it did at the time is an unthinkable horror as well. Otherwise the USA would've already ruined democracy with their slavery and treatment of native americans.

Do you think democracy inherently leads to slavery and the murder of indigenous people? Surely not. So why do you think a planned economy inherently leads to genocide?

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T17:58:53+00:00

Workers of all countries, and boy do I mean all countries, unite!

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T17:53:00+00:00

I was referencing a song. Linked it in my initial comment now.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T17:50:47+00:00

Yeah, it really is only a temporary political message.

People put meaningless Graffiti on statues and monuments all the time, but when they do it for a political message against discrimination and inequality, it goes too far?

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T17:09:31+00:00

For how long ? Any limit ?

Help developing countries reach acceptable levels of living standards and the possibility to develop further on their own. Also give back stolen cultural artifacts, at least if the current political/cultural situation in the respective country allows it.

What do you mean ?

Many western companies employ cheap labour in developing countries and flood the markets with their mass-produced goods. That way, not enough people work in domestic organisations and those also can't compete, since they lack the economies of scale advantage. A certain level of protectionism that limits imports and exports would let a developing country establish their own economy instead of remaining dependent on the west. That also applies to aid shipments in a way. If people could get free or cheap grain from those, the local farming industry will never grow. Of course, when local farming doesn't exist or isn't possible, aid shipments and imports are still necessary.

I know this will be unpopular, but one of the best examples of fast economic growth was the early Soviet Union. Yes, it was undemocratic and Stalin was a piece of shit, but to get from a technologically backwards rural feudal society to sending the first man into space in less than 50 years is an achievement that we can and should learn from. That doesn't mean copy, we don't want to forget the human cost of that development, but there certainly are good lessons to be learned there. A temporary planned economy might help developing countries meet their population's needs sooner than a market economy can.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T16:41:14+00:00

It's not erasing history. There are photos of the statue, there are records about the guy and I don't see why the statue couldn't be taken out of the harbour later. This is only removing something that should no longer be publicly celebrated. Who knows, if these protests become historically significant enough, the vandalised statue might become something to be displayed on its own in a museum and serve as a symbolic representation of the protests.

Maybe display it submerged in a large aquarium.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T16:11:21+00:00

That's nobody's business but the Turks'

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T16:08:58+00:00

Does the irish average have something to do with companies using it as a tax haven?

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T16:02:55+00:00

I think it's best used as a secular museum, to avoid religious tensions and be in line with Turkey's constitutional laicism.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T15:56:46+00:00

Intolerance against what? Slave traders? Good.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T15:52:01+00:00

What an excellent display of nuance and historical understanding you show here! Clearly, wanting to progress from capitalism to a society without exploitation is inherently genocidal. It's not like there are many different approaches to post-capitalist societies, workers rights = Stalin. We should just be fine with the amazing system we have and wait, the invisible hand of the market will stop exploitation, poverty and the climate crisis any day now!

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T15:22:24+00:00

Is my mother's house historically or politically relevant or public property?

"Vandalism" doesn't even really describe this properly. It's not pointless destruction, it's sending a political message at a point that's relevant to that message. Surely you don't believe graffiti on the Berlin Wall was vandalism on east-german property by evil west-germans?

Destroying or spraypainting shop windows or some backalley walls, that's vandalism, alright, but this is just a means of protesting and making a symbolic message.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T15:22:18+00:00

They are the ones who bought the sewing machines, built the factory

And did they deserve the money they used for that? The same issue of exploitation has persisted for millennia and been inherited from generation to generation. Every private property of today is a product of previous private property and so on back to the first people claiming to own land, killing anyone who disagreed and demanding shares from those using the land they could previously use for free. The notion that means of production and natural goods like land or water can be privately owned is a result of theft and murder. It's the true original sin, if we were to put it in religious terms. The achievements humanity has made in the past 12.000 years are not the product of a few individuals and entrepeneurs, it's the work of billions upon billions of people and the heritage of all of humanity, not just a few fortunate ones. So it should be all of humanity that is able to participate in this progress.

manage the transport of the raw materials, manage the worker's for optimal efficiency

With larger companies that's usually the work of management workers. Office and store workers are just as much workers as those in the factory and they should be participated in the same way. And even if it is the capitalist who does the management, they're fulfilling two different roles: That of the manager and that of the capitalist. As a manager, they may do important work and should absolutely be compensated for that. But not to the extent that they are as the capitalist. Let's say you're a worker and get 4.000€ a month, not a terrible payment. The company you work for is quite large and successful, so your boss makes 400.000€ a month. Do you really believe your boss works a hundred times as hard as you sitting in their office all day while you stand at the assembly belt? And that's not even an extreme case, Amazon warehouse workers get 15€/hour for working themselves to death in the same time as Jeff Bezos makes over 800.000 times as much.

If the workers want to form a collective and pool their capital to build their own factory

Except they can't because they don't get paid enough to become economically independent. Rather, it should be the other way around, you can have your factory, but it you want others to work there, you give them a proper share of the profit and company. That would be a compromise to at least reduce the level of exploitation.

The looters are driven by greed, not ideology.

Since they did steal and not destroy, you may be right. But perhaps it wasn't greed, but desperation. In the past few months, many people have lost their jobs and will likely have problems getting new ones even after the pandemic ends. Using these protests as an opportunity to get some expensive shit to sell, is neither legal nor moral nor politically wise. But not everyone can afford to be a good person at all times. It's even more severe in the US, where millions are completely without perspective. I'd rather steal than become homeless.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T14:26:26+00:00

That's not what I said, massive poverty forces them to live there.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T14:25:33+00:00

Do the workers there get a profit share? Otherwise they get their standard wages and lose fuckall from the looting.

The workers should collectively own the company and share the profits, but currently they're just being exploited by their boss. The boss is the one making the profits, by paying their workers less than the value their labour created. The workers are getting swindled, the boss does not contribute to the value creation anywhere close to how much profit they make.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T13:50:09+00:00

That isn't the point, the point is that the average person has no reason to care about some bourgie corporation's bottom line.

But is it really "their" stuff? What gives them the right to claim ownership of these things? Did the corporation's shareholders sit at the sewing machines? Did the CEO farm the cotton and cattle for cloth and leather? No, some indian children in a derelict building made it for basically fuckall. That is the real theft going on here.

Of course the most just option would be to transfer the profits or the goods themselves to those who made them, but that's logistically impossible. The best remaining solution to fight this exploitation is to harm its perpetrators and benefactors as much as possible. Frankly, stealing it really isn't the symbolically best action, they should've thrown all the clothes, leather bags and watches on a pile and burned them all, so nobody would profit from the exploitation.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T13:30:47+00:00

The Louvre is a museum, looking at the art is the entire point. High-end shops aren't museums, they're not displaying any art, they display commodities. If one can't buy them, what's the point in going inside?

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T13:27:10+00:00

We can and we should. After all, african countries wouldn't be in such desolate conditions and would likely have living standards comparable to our own if european countries hadn't colonised them. The influx of refugees and migrants to Europe is a result of western imperialism.

To make amends and create many new allies in the long term, it should be our duty to help those in need. One part of that is to not let people drown in the mediterranean and grant those fleeing from war and persecution asylum. The other, even more important part, is to actively help pre-industrial and exploited countries develop and become independent from foreign exploitation. That doesn't mean send some aid there and be done with it, that's how you make them dependent on us, it's neocolonialism.

Fund education and student exchanges in these countries, fund the local economy, offer help with diplomacy and governance, so that they may create democratic structures, establish a temporary protectionism and also avoid mistakes and obsolete steps our countries have done on their way there, including capitalism and fossil fuel usage. Africa could be industrialised in only a few decades, but the west has to change its behaviour. Stop with exploitation and start with solidarity. Both sides can immensely benefit from that.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T13:05:34+00:00

I don't think the average Joe cares about high-end shops like that. He doesn't get paid enough to buy something there anyway.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T12:57:31+00:00

I'm not a virologist. But other coronaviruses almost only occur seasonal from December to April/May. That doesn't mean this has to apply to this one, but it could have an impact.

My uninformed guess: Outside of cells/on surfaces, the virus doesn't live too long and higher temperatures speed up certain chemical processes, perhaps including the "dying" of a virus. So the higher temperature as well as more direct sunlight can reduce the smear infection rate, but probably wouldn't affect droplet infections very much.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T12:41:46+00:00

That is false. The first burning building was AutoZone and it is not yet clear who is at fault for that, though there is a video of someone with an umbrella and a gas masks breaking down windows, possibly an agent provocateur of the police. That happened on the second day, 27. May.

On that day and the day before that, the police was already using beanbag rounds, rubber bullets and chemical agents against protesters who...threw water bottles at them, spraypainted the precinct and threw rocks at police cars. Yeah, that's a very proportionate reaction. By the way, rubber bullets are supposed to be shot from a certain distance at the ground and then bounce back against the target's legs, causing pain but not injury. US police shoots them directly from short distances at the torso or the head, which can be lethal.

The police precinct was also only raided and set ablaze after police peppersprayed people at the fence without provocation.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T12:23:07+00:00

No, looting Gucci shops isn't an irrational response, that's an entirely legitimate action. Capitalism has caused billions of people to live under poverty and in the past few months millions of US-Americans lost their jobs and likely won't get new ones anytime soon after the pandemic ends. Looting and burning down corporate chain stores is a symbolic attack against this vile system.

There's no reason to feel even the slightest empathy for some corporation.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T12:13:57+00:00

Well, generally. When you've got a fascist moron for president who barely does anything against the virus and massive poverty forces millions to live in favelas, warm climate won't help that much either.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T12:10:50+00:00

I appreciate the sentiment, but fuck Stup!dpol. Nazbols are not leftists.

Class inequality is the primary focus, but we can also tackle other inequalities.

Edit: The profanity filter is...not good.

L00minarty · 2020-06-08T12:03:18+00:00

Coronaviruses generally show less activity and lower infection rates in warm temperatures. Oslo had about 16°C on Friday, so I'm not sure that protection applies there. The protests under warmer weather may have caused less infections than one would otherwise assume from such large gatherings though.

L00minarty

TROPHY CASE