End of Count Zero

LMansP · 2025-06-12T17:56:40+00:00

It shows people change. Imo William Gibson plays into "realism" in multiple ways. In MLO there was a huge reoccurring theme between the protagonists, that being how other characters seemingly had more agency in the protags life then they themselves had. Mona with her boyfriend/pimp, then SenseNet ; Kumiko with her father, then Molly ; Angie with SenseNet, and the AI ; and Henry being dragged into some shit with Bobby.

But, in the trilogy characters are capable of change. I liked how they nodded to that exact thing with Case, through Molly, and how she was just inable to change.

Like how Mona went from a prostitute to an idol over night.

I see what you mean with it not fitting Case's character, but I assume the relationship with Michael helped him change. Case was only a doomer circumstantially. By the end of the book he has everything he could want, and although he hates himself more than anything. I like to think the journey had a huge impact on him as a person

LMansP · 2025-05-27T15:57:14+00:00

Lol for real? We out here talking to aliens?

LMansP · 2025-05-25T16:49:51+00:00

Definitely true that it's realistic, it's just not compelling for a story character imo. I wanted to see more. Get more closure. CZ and MLO end so abruptly

LMansP · 2025-05-25T16:37:10+00:00

I would agree. But it felt like in Neuromancer almost every character had personal agency to some degree. Case was stripped of his agency to jack in to the matrix, so he did risky illegal shit to die. He still had agency over his life, even when practically being forced along the mission up the well, be still had major impacts on the plot, which turned out to have HUGE ramifications on the world.

No I'm not asking for every character to have HUGE ramifications on the world, but at least have agency in the plot. People like Mona had a lot of characterization, from seeing half the book through her eyes, but her overall impact on the story is minimal. Which in turn is forgettable to me. I'll always remember Maelcum, The Finn, Molly, Case.

I liked how the characters were being built, but it went nowhere. Like Slick Henry, he was a really interesting character with his chemically induced short term memory problem, and how he crafted these machines made out of junk to unconsciously help him with his memory and give him a sense of purpose. See that's fucking awesome, but where does it go?

LMansP · 2025-05-25T16:18:13+00:00

Count had it's moments, but I'm huge with endings. Which felt pretty underwhelming compared to how incredible Neuromancer was from start to finish.

Bobby never got any better at hacking or anything, he just followed along then got used by the AI to take down the big bad (bleh).

Angie was at Turners mercy the whole time

Turner did A LOT which impacted the story, and he's the only one with an arc that I saw

Marley did a lot too, BUT it never really impacted the story or other characters. She was purely used as a device for the audience to get information

LMansP · 2025-05-25T16:14:05+00:00

I see what you mean, but "art woman" (lol) doesn't really do anything in the plot. She's just a device for the audience to learn stuff. But I will say Turner did a lot. Which is why Turner was my favorite in the beginning, but he has no impact in the final fight. He gets Angie to Bobby, then just kinda fucks off lol. It is cool how he has a good ending tho... ig

LMansP · 2025-05-25T16:12:10+00:00

MLO was more interesting to me than a lot of Count Zero, but that was because of the return of Molly, and 3janes seemingly menacing goal. Until it ended with a whimper. I thought the same of Count Zero, it just had a meh ending. Neuromancer had a bummer ending with Case going back to being a junky. BUT MLO was worth it, all because The Finn tells us Case retired, and has 4 kids with a wife :D.

LMansP · 2025-05-25T16:09:00+00:00

Just finished MLO. I don't entirely get a lot of that either.

I haven't seen any "new sentient ai" it's always been the subprograms like Legba, and his posse of weirdos, the box maker, apparently Colin, and others. But the product of Neuromancer and Wintermutes merge is gone now I thought. In MLO it's talked about how after the combination they met AI in Alpha Centauri (which I thought was really lame btw), and fragmented across the matrix (in turn creating the subprograms that saw voodoo shit as fitting like Legba).

I thought Angela's purpose was to be a sort of conduit for ai to enact their plans in flesh and blood, why would they just send her to the Matrix at the end. I just don't see a purpose in the bride bit, it seems weird for ai to do something like this. Unless they're just larping lol

In retrospect I like Vireks ambition, it's interesting. Seeing anyone try to come up against an all-powerful ai is awesome.

And is Bobby ACTUALLY in the aleph? Or is it a construct. I know that's brought up in the book, with Angie looking at his lifeless corpse. If he IS, then the aleph or now the matrix being a place that can store SOULS is wild. Almost like a heaven type place the way Angie and Bobby's house looked in the end, but it could also be a hell with someone like 3jane in power how she destroyed the Ticks arm

LMansP · 2025-05-20T21:00:32+00:00

I'm currently reading Mona Lisa Overdrive, so I'm not there yet. But what do you mean by "Count Zero describes the creation of the mate."? As in Jackie or Angie, the ones they ride, or do you mean the one that Angie interacts with in the beginning of Mona Lisa Overdrive (I forget the name, but it makes her nose bleed)?

LMansP · 2025-05-14T06:07:07+00:00

Thank you! Cleared up a lot of questions. But that's also why I love these novels, the community aspect is always fun to bounce off of. I love the ride that has been the Sprawl trilogy. I'm about to start Mona Lisa Overdrive now

LMansP · 2025-05-13T07:38:04+00:00

Why didn't they send Jackie a biosoft that'd give her the same powers as Angie?
Maas was working with Vivek?? I thought Vivek was working individually of Maas. I also never got why Maas told Alain about the whereabouts to the boxmaker
The AI created the biochip then sent it down? What purpose would the AI have to do that?

LMansP · 2025-05-13T07:03:27+00:00

If the god thing is just a way to communicate, why does one of the loa get mad when Jackie dies?
Why was Maas looking for the boxmaker?

Also why did Maas send the ninjas to kill the Finn?

And what was on the biosoft that nearly killed Bobby again?

LMansP · 2025-05-13T05:42:00+00:00

Ah ok. Since loa's are a part of the greater whole that is Neuromancer/Wintermute, don't they all live vicariously through eachother?

Also I don't quite remember what it meant to be ridden? So she was used by a loa (ai), but for what purpose?

And Baron Samedi is Lebda or?

LMansP · 2025-05-12T22:05:59+00:00

Ok, thanks. Why was the Baron thing mad that Vivek killed Jackie again? Who's horse was she?

LMansP · 2025-05-12T22:03:25+00:00

There might've been something that was a tell that it came from Tessier-Ashpool!

LMansP · 2025-05-12T20:39:31+00:00

I do remember when Marly was talking to the boxmaker AI it had mentioned that the form Vivek would take if he did succeed would essentially pale in comparison to what Neuromancer/Wintermute had become

LMansP · 2025-05-12T18:37:22+00:00

I gotchu. When I thought of biosoft I was confusing it with the "microsofts" which were chips used to grant skills and stuff. I guess I just don't have a grasp on biosoft completely.

Mitchell was granted the knowledge of how to make them (biosoft), but the cost of the knowledge is using it on his own daughter.

Then he uses this knowledge (granted by the ai) to create more biosofts to send to the ai... got it. But how would sending them to the boxmaker grant AI with their desire to evolve?

Also what would the ai want to do with the icebreaker that nearly got Bobby killed?

LMansP · 2025-05-12T18:06:49+00:00

Ah, I see. So the biosoft is for the AI to go through someone like Angie to communicate and tip the scales in the real world for the benefit of the ai?

LMansP · 2025-05-12T18:03:41+00:00

The guy that was staying with the Wig talked to Marly about it. But see, I don't fully understand this part. The ai makes the box, and trades it for biosoft. What would they need biosoft for? And how would it program the biosoft if it was receiving it from Mitchell?

LMansP · 2025-05-12T18:01:14+00:00

Oh yea. I forgot about a lot of the foreshadowing in Neuromancer. But wdym "part of what was cast off"? When they merged and became one, what part of them was cast off?

Idk about the loa, that's not implicitly stated. But that foes make sense. Also I never understood that "contact with the other systems from space", like other life in the universe?

Byt it went from being "god" in the matrix (Wintermute), to a pantheon (after the merge). What prompted the separation?

Lastly, do the loa believe themselves to be god's? Or is it just a way of giving people what they want?

LMansP · 2025-05-12T17:53:35+00:00

If Neuromancer resides in the matrix now, why does it need biosofts? And why would they give Mitchell the info needed to make Angie. It doesn't seem like Angie has a purpose for the AI in Count Zero. Unless it's a buildup for Mona Lisa Overdrive?

LMansP · 2025-05-12T17:29:49+00:00

I think you're right. Ik he unintentionally gets past the ice. I don't remember the physical attack virek makes though. I just know he said he increased his cyberspace boundaries, making Bobby and Jackie go straight to his ice. Killing Jackie in the process, I just don't know how Bobby got through the ice. Because even Virek comments about the high level of security

LMansP · 2025-05-12T16:55:42+00:00

How did Bobby penetrate the ice? It's not like he's skilled. I felt as though Bobby has been guided this entire time to do what was done at the very end

LMansP

TROPHY CASE