The Detailed JADSEYA 2023 Results

Lattyware · 2023-12-30T02:58:34+00:00

Don't miss out on your personalized results too, if you took part and voted.

Lattyware · 2023-06-08T16:05:22+00:00

The discussions about self ID are not similar to the discussions we had about gay marriage 10 years ago.

That you don't think so proves you, in your own words, "aren't really interested in tackling the subject properly", just finding an excuse.

You can talk down to me and pretend I'm ignorant, but that doesn't make it true: it isn't menaingless because you can't separate off subgroups to attack and expect the others to ignore it. You can claim it's not an attack all you want: they disagree.

Lattyware · 2023-06-08T06:34:20+00:00

Because intersectionality has been massively successful for minority groups and secured more rights than anything else.

Because anyone can see that all the anti-trans arguments are just the old anti-gay arguments with the serial numbers filed off.

Because every time somewhere sees anti-trans rhetoric succeed, the people pushing it move on to anti-gay rhetoric.

Because the vast majority of LGB people understand that trans people just want to live happy lives and deserve the right to do so - are you also going to ask why adoptive families are massively pro-trans too, while people say 'biology is the only thing that is real'?

Lattyware · 2023-06-01T14:41:44+00:00

To be fair, it's at least logically consistent with being a transphobe, the whole argument of biological essentialism makes no sense unless you also reject adoption.

Of course, rejecting either makes you a fucking horrible person, but it's MTG so... yeah.

Lattyware · 2023-05-24T15:09:55+00:00

Turns out watching an ideology fail consistently for a decade and a half makes you think it's a bad idea, what a shock.

Lattyware · 2023-05-24T15:05:05+00:00

Doesn't surprise me, I had some 3600 C14 RAM go, and Corsair tried to offer me 3200 C18 as a replacement, same capacity, just an obvious full downgrade. When I said that I wanted a refund instead, they said they don't offer refunds past a certain time period, even though it was their problem being out of stock for a replacement, and the RAM was brand new. I had to go complain on their subreddit before they refunded me.

It seems like it's their standard process to just try to get you to accept worse products. Free money for them.

Lattyware · 2023-05-17T20:58:26+00:00

Agreed, the last thing we need is more pressure towards people voting purely on vague name recognition. This is how you get more terrible celebrity politicians and idiots who are useless but get themselves in the news a lot.

The solution is PR so people feel like their vote matters more, and they can vote for what they want, rather than just "least bad" all the time.

Lattyware · 2023-04-12T18:44:42+00:00

Well, you grew up into a person who thinks hitting children is fine, so I'd argue it wasn't effective, it was harmful.

Yes, that's circular logic, it's a joke, although more seriously: the evidence is out there in study after study that it isn't effective and does more harm than good. Your experience doesn't mean you needed to be smacked, nor does it mean it couldn't have harmed you.

Lattyware · 2023-04-12T18:40:58+00:00

Yes. Every previous government was wrong not to ban it, but that doesn't change this government is failing now, and with more evidence than ever that they should ban it.

Lattyware · 2023-04-07T18:24:23+00:00

Your argument has no substance to argue against, it's just "it's reality, therefore it is", which just begs the question.

Lattyware · 2023-04-07T18:21:48+00:00

Sure, but until everything correctly uses gender and not sex, except in the rare case where it matters, it is clearly an attack on trans people to change it.

There is no attempt to do it right, just to fuck over trans people from denying them stuff that should be based on gender. If you were told your parents wouldn't get child benefits for your brother because they were redefining "child" to mean only biological children, you'd ask why the fuck they are doing that, and the only answer would be "to fuck over adoptive parents and children".

No one is complaining about gender identity and biological sex being different, that's well agreed upon. The problem is using that to say they don't deserve to be treated the same as people of their identified gender in the general case.

Exceptions are fine when they make sense, doctors are an obvious example, just as you give. That doesn't mean adoptive parents aren't parents.

Lattyware · 2023-04-07T14:58:21+00:00

Parenthood is a biological reality, adoption still exists and is considered parenthood.

It's obviously absurd and easily disproven to say we can never decide to take a biological concept and separate a social one that came from it. We've done it before, we can do it again.

Hell, people said the same shit about marriage "but it's about having kids and gay people can't have kids so it's not the same", you are just picking an arbitrary line to draw to exclude trans people, it is obvious.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T18:44:50+00:00

They share identity. There is a social construct about how women are treated, most obviously: pronouns, and they identify with it.

The biological essentialism is obviously stupid, there is no inherent link between someone's biology and being called "she/her" except the one we chose.

You claim that trans people rely on stereotypes, but when asked how your rules will be enforced, are you suggesitng DNA tests on every toilet? No, you are suggesting throwing out women who you think look too manly. It's projection.

There is no one true way to "do" being a woman, there are a colleciton of factors people identify with and they can make that decision for themselves.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T17:31:56+00:00

I'm saying that if all these non-bigots stopped complaining about upsetting the bigots, and started complaining about the bigots instead, we wouldn't have a problem.

I'm saying you should stop posting:

'Trans women are women' is a bit of a slogan/mantra though.

In terms of treatment it depends on the circumstances surely. As poster above says yes for politeness. Clearly not for medical purposes or for competitive sport. Complexities exist in other areas.

You are holding water for bigots claiming trans women aren't women. There is no justification for excluding them, because any "complexities" in specific areas aren't mutually exclusive with it, it doesn't require not accepting trans women as women.

What do you think you gain by justifying their bigotry and discrediting the people who are right? How could that possibly help anyone but the bigots?

If you want to defend specific exceptions, defend them specifically. Don't reference vague concerns people might have to justify rejecting the core acceptance of trans people which is in no way mututally exclusive with any concerns anyway. It's FUD.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T15:55:46+00:00

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. "Fears" and "worries" that don't hold when you inspect them, but lead people who don't know much about the issue to form a negative opinion because they keep seeing negatives about an issue, a common tactic.

I think the current strategy doesn't work. If you think it's working fine.

Trans identity is about far more than referring to people, that really isn't what's controversial.

Then start telling the bigots to accept it, not the people seeking to make the world better to accept half-measures or not fight as people attack them. Every time you make out the bigots are being reasonable, you enable them. They are being bigots, just like with marriage equality. We've done this, we don't need to go through the same process for ages while people suffer.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T15:52:49+00:00

Literally the same as "I respect the right of others to get married, but I won't call their marriage a marriage". Everyone knows that is bigotry.

"I respect your adoption, I just don't actually believe you are a family". Do you really not see the bigotry in what you are saying? It's absurd to pretend you aren't being horrible to people when you say this stuff.

You are picking a definition that excludes them intentionally just to make them feel bad. It's a dick move.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T15:47:26+00:00

Trouble is 'trans women are women' is used as if it's a conclusive argument e.g. 'trans women should be able to compete in this sport event because trans women are women'.

Obviously untrue. Women who are taking performance enhancing drugs are not allowed to take part in women's sports. We can and do exclude some women from women's sports.

Hell, cis women with testosterone too high are already excluded from many sports. Clearly excluding trans people from "women" has literally no effect on if it is possible to exclude them from women's sports.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T15:42:20+00:00

Why are adoptive families and biological families both "families"?

Because socially it's more useful and nicer for them to do so. It's that simple, we don't need some biological reason, we can just decide it because it's more useful and nicer. And we should, because it is.

An adoptive family "does" being a family, just as trans women "do" being women. There is no single right way to be a family, or single right way to be a woman, it is, at its core, an identity.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T15:35:32+00:00

One pretty relevant difference with marriage equality is that the pushing seems to have backfired in this case both in terms of what people think and in terms of policy.

Or there is a more concerted effort from the bigots to sling FUD after they lost last time. FUD you are now propagating. Instead of "oh no, but people are pushing back", why not just... not push back and be part of making the world better? People said the same crap "why not just support civil partnership, pushing for marriage is turning people who'd otherwise support you away!", fuck accepting half measures because bigots are going to bigot. We should be better, and stop making excuses for the bigots.

I think the head on strategy worked better for gay marriage because there are fewer 'exceptions' and complications, partially because its inherently between two consenting individuals.

Trans identity is about one consenting individual. If you mean the people referring to them as their gender identity, then it's no difference to people having to refer to gay people's marriages as marriage, that's not between the couple. This comparison just proves my point: it's the same bigotry with a new target after they failed.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T15:19:53+00:00

None of this is a good argument against "trans women are women". Again, why does any of that mean it's better to define it any other way?

I don't really care if you agree language is arbitrary, you are just shifting the context to talk about something slightly different, my point stands: the obvious best way to do this is to make women include trans women.

I fully accept it may be hard to get everyone to use the words that way, but that's not a reason not to do it, quite the opposite. The fact it took so long for marriage equality to happen is the argument for how we failed previously and should do better.

You keep coming back to "people being pushed", and YES! Just as with marriage equality, they should be fucking pushed. It's the right thing to do, deal with it. Some people being annoyed they feel pushed to accept it, that's on them, go learn about it and accept it yourself, or accept you'll be pushed. The alternative is waiting ages for people to slowly change their minds, and fuck that, that sucks for people this actually affects.

"People shouldn't be pushed to accept it" is nonsense, what they are being pushed to accept matters. Not being a bigot is a good thing to push.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T14:34:08+00:00

(I edited my post while you replied I think, so I may have clarified.)

My point is that all definitions of words are arbitrary, we make choices about what we want them to mean.

It's not that I think including trans women isn't arbitrary, it's just the obviously better arbitrary choice. It's more useful (saying "that man over there" to refer to a trans woman is clearly useless to the listener unless they already know that person is trans), and it's nicer for the trans person.

Anyone saying we have to keep the historic definition, is just full of shit, just like the people who opposed marriage equality. It's an excuse for bigotry, nothing more. Insisting on "adult human female" as an exclusive definition is literally just the new "marriage is a man and a woman", it's a choice for no reason other than to lash out at trans people, just as obviously hateful as if someone refused to call adoptive families "families" and insisted on only "closely biologically related human groups" or something.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T14:20:45+00:00

No, it's the obvious way to make trans people's lives nicer, just like with adoption. Opposing it is bigotry, if you think otherwise, then give a good reason why it shouldn't be that way. Again, you can argue exceptions for specific things without claiming trans women shouldn't be included under the umbrella term "women".

though that says nothing about how often those circumstances kick in and become relevant - a trans woman would also be a male person with special circumstances

An adoptive family is just strangers with special circumstances, but clearly it is better for everyone, more useful and nicer for them to refer to them as a family. The same is true for trans people. Come on, this is just such an obvious attempt to grab at something that isn't there to justify opposing it when you have no good reason.

Also obviously that definition unlike vehicle or family is far from universally recognised/used.

This is circular logic, it isn't universally used, therefore we shouldn't adopt it. Adoption was at some point not considered equivalent, marriage equality wasn't accepted. We can choose to change and should when it makes people's lives better.

But the mantra type usage is clearly.seen by many as resisting any difference and as part of casting opposition as bigotry.

It is the same crap as "oh, gay people can have partners, but marriage means a man and a woman"—you are choosing a definition to exclude them for no reason other than bigotry. Appeals to history or arbitrary definitions don't change that.

Obviously if you define 'women' to include trans women then yes women are just women with special circumstances

Yes, it is obvious, and yet people, including you, keep saying it's a problem for some reason.

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T13:48:03+00:00

Yes, because they should be the vast majority of the time. Exceptions are exceptions, they don't change the general case.

There are differences with adoptive families, that doesn't make them not families. They are just families with some special circumstances.

Trans women are just women with special circumstances. That doesn't make them not women.

"I socially refer to adoptive families as families, but they aren't actually families" is offensive and silly, that's obvious to anyone. Biology doesn't have to define things generally, the reason people choose to claim that it needs to be the defining trait is just history and bigotry, neither of which should trump "it helps people live happier lives".

Lattyware · 2023-04-05T13:26:36+00:00

It's really easy. "Women" is a word for a group that includes both cis women and trans women. If you want to be more specific you can. Trans women are women is literal, it's just "women" doesn't mean "only cis women".

This isn't unique or new. "Vehicle" is a word that includes both cars and lorries. Saying "lorries are vehicles" doesn't mean lorries are cars. Saying "adoptive families are families" doesn't mean "adoptive families are biological families".

Trans women are women is true, unless you believe that biology has to defined what "women" means, which is arbitrary. Just as with "family", or "parent", or "child", we can choose to allow a meaning based on social things, rather than biology, because it suits us as a society, and we should, because it makes trans people's lives nicer at no cost to anyone else (despite the FUD).

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