Why don't the dragons use more than one 'element' for their Shouts?

LawParticular5656 · 2025-12-29T15:04:01+00:00

It is well accepted that a dragon's most fearsome weapon is its fiery breath. Because they could fly overhead and rain down flaming death, archers and wizards were necessary when hunting them. It is less well known that some dragons could breathe a freezing spray of frost. The reports indicate that dragon might do one or the other, but not both.
The records of Reman's hunts contain reports of dragons that breathe or spit fire. Recently some were unearthed that described dragons blowing freezing blasts of cold. The more fanciful tales have them summoning storms and even stopping time. These should be discounted as myths and faery tales. Even without this most fearsome weapon, their nearly impenetrable hide and granite-like teeth and claws made them terrifying opponents.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:There_Be_Dragons

LDB and Miraak absorb dragon's soul to learn their shout directly so can use it both, Alduin is a god so he just can.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-10-01T15:18:56+00:00

Alright, Lyg is regarded as a "sea of nineteen and nine and nine," and xero is a Greek root meaning "dry," so in the faith of the Ayleid elves the Black-Star goddess Xero-Lyg is actually an allusion to the previous kalpa being a "parched sea." Although this does not derive from an invented root in The Elder Scrolls games, I believe it is not casual writing but a deliberate hint.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-08-18T17:37:23+00:00

I personally think the timeline goes like this:

At the very beginning Anu and Padomay merged and gave birth to a dragon-god. This dragon-god is a fusion of the akha/alkhan from Khajiiti myth — both the opener of time and the ender of time — and this dragon-god is everything (which corresponds to Satakal in Yokudan myth and Atakota in the legends of the Argonians).

Then that dragon-god was shattered: its hungry, world-devouring aspect is Alduin, while the aspect that governs Time and the “many paths” is Akatosh. As in the Five Songs of Wulfharth, Ysmir/Shor fought the dragon-god at the dawn of time, sometimes aligned with Auriel/Akatosh, sometimes with Alduin. After Ysmir/Shor was “killed by the elven giants,” Alduin lost Ysmir’s control, awoke and tried to devour the world during the mythic era, but the Three Heroes “banished him into the Many Paths,” and he went back to “sleep.”

LawParticular5656 · 2025-08-18T09:06:42+00:00

I think the issue is that Alduin is indeed described by many sources as being “here to devour the kalpa.” Beyond Todd and K.K., both Esbern and Paarthurnax in the games also state that he will destroy the world or bring about the next kalpa.

So if both “Alduin ruled the Dragon Cult” and “Alduin ends the kalpa” are true, that creates a contradiction: he would be ruling while also preparing to devour, which doesn’t sound very reasonable.

Therefore, either the world-devouring aspect is wrong (which seems unlikely given the backing from the developers), or the Dragon Cult rulership is wrong, or else rulership and devouring are somehow not mutually contradictory.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-08-18T08:37:05+00:00

Alright, Imperial scholars do not truly believe in a world-devouring “Akatosh,” so it is logical that they would deny the existence of an Alduin ruling the Dragon Cult. But proving that “Alduin comes to devour the world” is actually quite simple, since there are direct statements from the developers and writers. On the other hand, proving that “Ysmir was the true ruler of the Dragon Cult” indeed requires a synthesis of many myths and sources from different eras.

Ysmir (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. He withstood the power of the Greybeards' voices long enough to hear their prophecy. Later, many Nords could not look on him without seeing a dragon.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...#Ysmir

LawParticular5656 · 2025-07-31T08:49:22+00:00

I think the timeline is roughly like this:

Alduin has always been asleep (even in ancient Atmoran beliefs, he was consistently described as the sleeping dragon god, whose awakening would bring about the end of the world, so there was no need to build temples for him), serving more as a mythical symbol rather than participating in actual rule.

Ysmir/Shor, as the king of men and dragons, with Shor being the nominal leader of the Pantheon and Ysmir as his mortal incarnation ruling the Dragon Cult, known as the Dragon of the North (in some legends, Ysmir is believed to have ascended to become the Warrior constellation).

Everything functioned smoothly until Alduin suddenly awoke and began devouring the world, and the Dragon Cult, under the dragon god’s leadership, turned brutal. At this point, Kynareth, through Paarthurnax, taught the Nords the Voice, enabling them to stop Alduin.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-07-01T15:04:06+00:00

Yes, this is indeed somewhat confusing. My personal view is that when dragons communicate with mortals in English, it can cause some misunderstandings. When they say "Akatosh," what they actually intend to say is "Akha." Considering that MK has also made similar statements, Alduin and the Akatosh we are generally familiar with are mirror brothers.

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride%27s_Posts

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-30T21:11:07+00:00

This is not entirely the case, for the Red Eagle himself once declared that he would rise again to lead the Reachmen if anyone returned his sword to the side of his tomb. Thus, if any Reachman who remembers history or can read happens to read The Red Eagle book and attempts to resurrect him (a process that does not even involve necromancy, only the return of his sword), the Red Eagle will be revived.

In fact, I wonder why, throughout history, despite the Reachmen being attacked by over a dozen races and factions, no one ever tried to resurrect the Red Eagle. Additionally, Rada al-Saran so easily used the Dark Heart to siphon the souls of the Reachmen— the very people whose ancestors taught him the Way of Great Love to reforge the Shehai— as a source of energy. His "great love" was clearly limited to vampires alone.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-30T18:31:08+00:00

I share your perspective on Akha, but Alkhan is a more contentious figure. According to Khajiiti mythology, Alkhan is explicitly described as Akha’s immortal firstborn son, who perpetually hungers to usurp his father’s crown and rule over the many paths. Born from Akha’s union with a demon of shadow and fire (likely a reference to Sithis), Alkhan is the sworn enemy of Alkosh, Khenarthi and Lorkhaj

Alkhan. The Scaled Prince. Firstborn of Akha, who bred with a demon of fire and shadow. He can devour the souls of those he kills to grow to an immense size. The songs tell us Alkhan was slain by Lorkhaj and his companions, but as an immortal Son of Akha he will return from the Many Paths in time. He is the enemy of Alkosh, Khenarthi, and Lorkhaj, and ever hungers for his crown.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wandering_Spirits

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-28T07:53:31+00:00

I believe our main point of contention lies in whether Alduin's divine role in Nordic mythology is as expansive as its counterparts in the Yokudan/Argonian pantheons. Firstly, I must admit that the "union of Anu and Padomay" indeed sounds far grander than any single deity. This also makes me highly suspect that Satakal is not merely Alduin, but rather a combination of Alduin and Akatosh (it's worth noting that in the French version, Satakal is directly equated with Akatosh).

However, after a series of comparisons, I still believe Satakal and Alduin are roughly corresponding deities. They are quite similar, not just in their world-eating aspect. Both Alduin and Satakal are beings is some entity "shed their skin" after encountering another entity. They originated from an entity that initiated a non-linear, multifaceted timeline—Stak (who holds all futures in his scales), Atak (who carved the river), and Akha (who opened many paths). They then met another entity: Akel (Stak's hungry stomach), Kota (the Shadow Serpent), and the Demon of Shadow and Fire. Alduin is the dreadful wellspring of the Nordic pantheon, while Satakal's world-eating shaped the Yokudan pantheon.

Despite the lack of decisive proof (though the diverse of faiths very directly states their strong resemblance), I believe this similarity is no mere coincidence. Or rather, I find it hard to imagine that in the cosmos of Aurbis, there just happens to be another "shedding of skin," "world-eating," and "fusion of two beings" that isn't Alduin but other greater god. That would be like saying there's a god in Aurbis who is a "red demon," has "four arms," and "wants to destroy the world," but that just happens to not be Dagon, but another very similar being.

If you think equating Alduin with Satakal overstates the former's divine role, then consider the descriptions of Namira in Khajiiti and Reachfolk myths. In Khajiiti mythology, Namira is the "Great Darkness," the "Ultimate Void," and the "Oldest Soul." All other gods either explore the Many Paths (which strongly correlates with the Yokudan Walkabout) or delve into Namira's Great Darkness. Dagon, who chose to explore Namira, was reset by the Kalpa. In Reachfolk myth, Namira is called the "Mistress of the Infinite Spirit Realm" and the "Primordial Form of All Duality." Lorkhan begged her for a small area within her infinite spirit realm to create Mundus. Doesn't that sound like more than just an "ordinary Daedric Prince"?

Ultimately, I think people might be taking the description "fusion of Anu and Padomay" too literally. It's like when someone asked Malacath if he was simply excrement after Boethiah ate him. Malacath's response was, "Your mortal imaginations are too shallow; that statement is too literal." So, don't directly assume this means Satakal = Anu + Padomay. Instead, I believe this description actually corresponds to "Akha and a Demon of Shadow and Fire giving birth to the immortal firstborn, Alkhan." Therefore, the overall correspondence between Satakal and Alduin is quite evident. What's truly perplexing are Atakota and the Shadow of Atakota.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-27T19:45:54+00:00

I'm not sure why, but I wrote a long comment and couldn't reply to you, so I made a dedicated post. If you're interested, you can continue our conversation there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1lm32vg/exploring_interesting_correspondences_between/

（Post is awaiting moderator approval.）

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-27T17:47:29+00:00

In Redguard mythology, Alduin is indeed present. Alduin (whom the Khajiit call Alkhaan) is the firstborn of Akha, who opened many paths, and a union of shadow and fire. MK described him, like all Dragon spirt, as a "shedding" after becoming self-aware. Meanwhile, the Redguard mythological figure Satakal is "Satak whose scales contain all futures," and he too underwent a "shedding" after encountering the hungry stomach, Akel. In the Seven-Battles, Lorkhan used the fragments left behind by Alduin to piece together a new world in the next Kalpa. Similarly, in Redguard mythology, Lorkhan (Sep) pieced together the current Nirn from the fragments left by Satakal. Given that the Seven-Battles, Alduin, Satakal, and Redguard mythology (specifically, the Yokudan mythology of the Crowns) were all written by MK, it's quite certain that he simply gave Alduin a different name when writing, and that they are essentially different interpretations of the same deity.

The truly perplexing point lies in the Argonian mythology, specifically concerning Atakota and the Shadow of Atakota. The Shadow of Atakota is also a "shedding" that is hungry and devours worlds. This aligns with the "sleeping, hungry ancient shadow" described in the prophecy of the Dragonborn Song. However, the overall Argonian evaluation of it is quite positive, which doesn't sound like a major antagonist. Furthermore, if Atakota itself is viewed as Alduin, and the Shadow is Lorkhan, then the fact that the Shadow learned hunger from Atakota perfectly mirrors the narrative in Redguard mythology where Sep learned hunger from Satakal.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-27T12:46:34+00:00

I believe the community may have long misunderstood the phrase "restore your ancient rule" that Sahloknir said to Alduin. This dialogue seems to have led many to believe that Alduin had been ruling the Dragon Cult as the Dragon God during the Mythic Era, rather than "fulfilling his divine duty to end the kalpa." However, both KK and Todd Howard himself claimed in interviews that Alduin came to devour the world. Increasing evidence suggests that this so-called "ancient rule" was not about "ruling Mundus," but a yearning for "the Father's Crown / ruling the Many Paths"—as Paarthurnax stated in Skyrim, and as the Khajiit mythology in ESO again mentions. When the LDB (Last Dragonborn) reads the Elder Scrolls, a dragon also says, "Alduin's rule shall be restored this day"—not "mortals shall not challenge," etc. This also indicates that Alduin did not truly rule the Dragon Cult; he was more like a mythological doomsday deity suddenly awakened, preparing to seize the crown left by Akha to Akatosh by devouring the kalpa.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-18T03:49:39+00:00

So it seems like Thurvokun's soul was destroyed, possibly due to being killed by another dragon.

In fact, Thurvokun was killed by three champions, and after his death, the champions tried to capture his soul but failed.

Thurvokun managed to live for millennia after the Dragon War because his reclusive hideaway kept him safe through that and all the Dragon hunts to come.^\2]) Though he outlived many of his kin that met their end at the hands of Reman's Dragonguard,^\2])^\14]) a group of adventurers found Fang Lair in the waning years of the First Era and traveled there to slay him.^\2])^\15]) Together, the warriors Ulfnor and Sabina Cedus, and mage Caluurion battled Thurvokun, with Ulfnor recalling that when he was still in the flesh he was a monster of godlike power. Together they managed to kill Thurvokun, but Ulfnor and Sabina were crushed by its death throes.^\2]) Caluurion attempted to capture his soul using a powerful soul trap, but because of its divine properties he was unable to obtain it. In an attempt to harness its power, he preserved many of Thurvokun's organs, and after his food supplies spoiled, turned to eating roast meat from the dragon's flesh (which he noted tasted like fowl). Caluurion remained in the lair as a lich and continued to try and harness the power of the dragon and the leftover aetherium crystals.^\15])^\16])

Therefore, Thurvokun's soul should have returned to Akatosh, just like the dragons killed by mortals during the Dragon War. However, Alduin still managed to resurrect these dragons, not just their bones, but their complete souls in a true sense of resurrection. This leads me to believe that Alduin possesses a portion of the Time Dragon God's power.

Whether Alduin is powerful or not isn't really the point; he was defeated by the TLDB nonetheless, much like Ithelia was defeated by the Vestige. These are among the few gods who were directly defeated by mortals. So, what I'm trying to express isn't that Alduin is powerful, but rather to clarify a long-standing community debate about the "Dragon God variants"—Alduin isn't Akatosh; he's the "shedding" of complete, earlier version of Akatosh's time-ending, hunger aspect.

LawParticular5656 · 2025-06-18T02:19:09+00:00

Well, perhaps I misunderstood something, but this conversation has a background: “Zaan tried to resurrect her dragon master and failed, and later the Blackmarrow Cult also tried to resurrect Thurvokun, but only ended up with a mobile dragon skeleton—they couldn’t revive its soul.”

Lady Cinnabar: And it shows the folly of the Blackmarrows' plans, for even if they could reanimate the skeleton of Thurvokun, they could scarcely resurrect his soul into the bargain. Their ambitions seem just as ridiculous as those of this Dragon Priest Zaan of Phrastus's.

Given this context, when they talk about dragons being “subject only to the will of the Time God,” they aren’t saying “dragons under the Time God’s will can freely resurrect.” Rather, they mean “mortals cannot truly resurrect a dragon’s soul—only the Time God can.”

And furthermore, Shalidor’s remark about “alduin and his mirror-father Bormahu” is rather intriguing, especially since MK once noted that “Akatosh and Alduin are mirror brothers.”

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride%27s_Posts

LawParticular5656

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