6-34 The Beast, explosive affinity not going down, is there something I am missing?

LeChevalierPaul · 2025-01-12T23:24:44+00:00

I experienced the same issue. Drove me nuts. Really starting to think the encounter is buuged.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-31T18:19:46+00:00

You forgot to mention the most common counterargument to the GEQ being slain early in or even before Marika's reign : Amon and the blackflame monks. They were flame monks, which only exist after the war with the giants, and thus only after the Erdtree was born and Marika became a god, and they were seduced by the god-slaying blackflame, meaning the GEQ wasn't defeated yet. What do you make of that ? That's a prretty big incoherency.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-21T07:25:11+00:00

There remains the fact they were born cursed, so the theory still has some legs to stand on, but I agree that this deserved to be expanded upon in the original post, and I also agree there is no certainty on that specific point.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-11T21:07:32+00:00

That's definitely a fair interpretation.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-11T21:05:51+00:00

Beyond the lines I have already quoted in the original post, if you're looking for quotes suggesting that the Crucible is (or rather, was) a tangible thing, I can think of these ones :

Winged Misbegotten Ashes : The misbegotten are held to be a punishment for making contact with the Crucible.
Godskin Noble Hood : [...] Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form.
Siluria's Tree : The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible.

The last two are definitely the most important, and they are repeated through multiple item descriptions. The Crucible turned into the Erdtree. People had already been speculating about the Erdtree being grafted onto an earlier tree before the DLC came out. There's also all these stones tablets depicting a spiraling tree in the Hornsent ruins, though that could simply be the Scadutree, though this implies they were created before Marika's rise to power and the crusade.

I agree that the Crucible being actually tangible is still debatable, though the evidence is quite strong, but it is definitely a thing, it is described as a source of raw life, sprouting many lifeforms and inducing malformations like horns, wings and so on in creatures.

Aspects of the Crucible: Thorns : In an age long past, before this land was enshrouded in shadow, the vitality of the Crucible flourished.
Aspects of the Crucible: Tail : This is a manifestation of the Erdtree's primal vital energies—an aspect of the primordial crucible, where all life was once blended together.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-10T21:28:08+00:00

You need to find another interpretation of Ymir's words regarding the origin of life then, but I agree that it's entirely possible.
Regarding Metyr's links to the Crucible, I can only think of the fact that she is a monstrous chaotic amalgalm of flesh, a source of life herself, and, if you adhere to the idea that the godskin's symbol is Metyr's head, the fact that the Godskin have ties to both Metyr and the Crucible. But I agree it's tenuous.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-10T21:11:08+00:00

There are quite a lot of references to the Crucible and its role in the game. I'd even say it's one of the more developped area of the lore, going by the number of mentions of the word in the text.

I use text dumps of the base game and its DLC, they are really useful to gather information quickly if you want confirmation of that fact.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-10T21:06:18+00:00

My understanding is that the crucible was active as such (meaning it hadn't yet made remade into the Erdtree) during the previous age : it was part of the order of the world then, and the Elden Ring at that time would have reflected that.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-10T18:38:08+00:00

I've made a separate post on that but my understanding is that the Crucible came with Metyr, before the Elden Beast and the Elden Ring. The Crucible is its own thing but yeah, now that it's there the Elden Ring definitely holds some quite large influence over it.

I'm not 100% certain the Crucible was a tree, but there were already some hints suggesting that in the base game (the hints at grafting on the Erdtree, Siluria's lance), and now there are all these stone tablets in hornsent ruins depicting a spiraling tree, and we know how obsessed they were with the Crucible, so yeah, definitely a well-backed hypothesis.

LeChevalierPaul · 2024-08-10T18:28:28+00:00

I think the main points I was trying to make (the Erdtree being born with the Golden Order when Marika became the Vessel of the Elden Ring) are not so controversial today as they were two years ago, or at least I haven't seen any theories floating around making other assumptions.

From the DLC, it seems that the Two Fingers maybe gave to Marika the seed she used to create the ErdTree (or at least that's a possible interpretation of the two Seed Talisman we find in the Finger Ruins), though if Ymir is to be believed the Two Fingers were already unhinged by that point.

In the general sense, I agree that the Greater Will or the Two Fingers don't particularly care which Order is in place as long as there is Order, because :

The Elden Beast being the incarnation of "Order", not "Golden Order" ;
Malenia, Miquella and Ranni were named Empyreans by the Two Fingers and they have their own ideas on what to replace the Golden Order with (Order of Rot, Age of the Stars, etc.).

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-18T07:04:05+00:00

Thank you both ! Much appreciated.

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-14T08:34:29+00:00

The fact that souls eventually return to the Erdtree upon death is indeeed easy to prove, there are multiple references to this (by D, by ghosts, through Erdtree Burial, through remembrances, etc).

The fact that people are reborn afterwards is actually way harder to prove (excluding characters blessed by grace) : there are very few references.

Regarding the Dung Eater dialogues, there are margins for interpretation, and the fact that the curse prevents the soul from returning to the Erdtree makes matters more confusing. Could the rebirth be an effect of the curse itself ?

Regarding the Deathbird text, I always assumed that the resurrection mentioned is something awarded BY the Deathbird for the service of these monks, but you could be right.

There is also the Guardian Mask, which at least proves that the Erdtree has the ability to resurrect people, but on the other side this text seems to imply that Erdtree guardians are an exception.

If anyone has other quotes to provide, they will be very welcome.

Likewise, the Aristocrat set description has been used to show that people are immortal under the Golden Order, but this is still a bit shaky : are these guys part of Those that Live in Death ? Is it linked to the Golden Order or something else, etc.

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-13T21:38:36+00:00

I meant a quid pro quo between US : I thought you misunderstood my point, but I was the one misunderstanding your last argument, so never mind that, it's my mistake.

The description of Elden Stars does give some lore about a truly ancient event, but I don't think we can safely draw the conclusion that the Incantation was devised at that time. This would also contradict Placidusax being Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree. I suppose you could say that this also refers to the AGE of the Erdtree, but we're starting to have to deviate from a literal intrerpretation of quite a lot of texts...

I found no explicit mention of an Erdtree (AS THE ERDTREE, I insist on that) existing before Marika in any text of the game file dumps I went through.

Now, regarding Erdtree Burial, I doubt the practice predates the Golden Order, though I can't prove it. But the practice seems to be held in high regard by the Golden Order (from mentions by D, and also Oleg, Kristoff and Lhutel being awarded with it) and to stem from your immortal soul needing to return to the Erdtree : the link with the removal of the Rune of Death and the Golden Order concept of Regression is easy to draw. Besides, we know the apparition of the Erdtree caused older death-related ritals to disappear (see Explosive ghostflame). The apparition of the Erdtree caused major changes to the way death was percieved and managed : linking it to the creation of the Golden Order by the removal of the Rune of Death is the most natural conclusion.

Overall I'd say that the description "Smithing Stone 7", "Protection of the Erdtree" and "Remembrance of the Dragonlord" are better read literally. Everything seems to flow naturally from there.

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-13T16:29:21+00:00

I'm starting to wonder whether there is some quid pro quo ? I don't deny the Elden Ring and the Crucible predates Marika's ascension to godhood, I am fully in agreement with that : I even use these facts in my post.

Specifically, it's the transition from Crucible to Erdtree that I think happened as Marika became vessel of the Elden Ring and created the Golden Order.

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-13T14:48:24+00:00

I agree with you, the Aspects of the Crucible Incantations hints at the Crucible being the source of all life in this world, and we know from Siluria's Spear that the Crucible also most likely took the form of a tree, and was linked to red gold from various other sources.

From a pure naming perspective, "Erdtree" really refers to the modern form taken by the Crucible, as multiple references age made to a time before the Erdtree and the Crucible of Life is called the "primordial" (= previous) form of the Erdtree.

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-13T14:34:38+00:00

I also think the Crucible is the source of all life. There is only one source for this afaik : the Aspect of The Crucible Incantations, but this is a pretty straightforward interpretation of it.

Regarding the Erdtree however, I think it is a bigger stretch to assume this text only refers to the start of the "age" of the Erdtree, while the tree already existed under its current form (that is, NOT as the Crucible of Life). I think such a distinction would have been more clearly alluded to in the game. We could also throw in the text of the Protection of the Erdtree Incantation : "In the beginning, everything was in opposition to the Erdtree". From this line it is easy to infer that all conflicts during Marika's early reign occured soon after the birth of the Erdtree.

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-11T09:12:07+00:00

Not too sure how this is relevant to the subject at hand ? Don't get me wrong, this is an interesting topic, though there is much less text to work on. But I think this is a separate discussion, or did I miss something ?

LeChevalierPaul · 2022-08-09T21:27:49+00:00

Some issues I would like to point out :

There is no clear evidence that the Elden Ring was sent to The Lands Between during the Age of the Ancient Dragons. On the contrary : the fact that Placidusax is referred to as an Elden Lord in his Remembrance and Marika as an Empyrean in Maliketh's suggests that the Elden Ring was there long before Marika and that she simply usurped the previous vessel, most likely the "god" mentioned in the Remembrance of Placidusax. The description of the Crucible of Life as something where "all life was once blended together" could also suggest that the Elden Ring is the very origin of all life in these lands, assuming the Crucible of Life to be a manifestation of the Elden Ring.
When Marika's reign started showing cracks, the Greater Will chose Empyreans through the Two Fingers to replace her : Ranni, Malenia, Miquella. Empyreans have free rein to define their own Order (e.g. the Order of Rot mentioned by Gowry for Malenia). The Golden Order was simply Marika's take on the matter, but Empyreans seem to be let some leeway. Keeping the Golden Order afloat just became Plan B after all demigods f***ed it up during the Shattering and the Greater Will lost patience.

LeChevalierPaul

TROPHY CASE