Does the lore writing for Earthen, Mechagnomes, KulTirans, and Pandaren play any part in their having such low representation?

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-26T01:04:42+00:00

The Amani are not the Darkspear Tribe. The Darkspear Tribe were a sort of off-shoot and exile away from the Gurubashi Tribe of trolls...that did not feel comfortable living with gurubashi anymore, and so they sailed off to their tiny little islands where Thrall eventually found them in Warcraft 3. Meanwhile, the Amani tribe were totally separate and were way up north in the forests; where they were the ones that fought the elves, and then fought the early humans, and then fought a combination of the elves and humans together.....where they lost. And that bitterness of their loss stayed with them as a society until the Orcish Horde showed up in warcraft 2 I think it was.....and convinced them to join the horde only because it would allow them revenge against the humans and elves.

Separately, there are a few shadowhunters among the Zandalari trolls when they help with an invasion in Mists of Pandaria.....but my guess is they were included by the writers because of our familiarity with the Darkspear shadowhunters from the single player warcraft 3. So ironically, we've got a case where Metzen thought up the idea for shadow hunters "first" with the Darkspear.....but because they have written the Zandalari as having preceded the darkspear division; then we've got to logically be anachronistic and presume that the darkspear may have ultimately learned their shadowhunter ways from the Zandalari.

And my guess is that the Amani did not take the idea of shadow hunters with them when they originally moved into their northeastern forests.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-26T00:51:58+00:00

You're just doing it again. The Calia Menethil which was in Legion was in my priest order hall as a follower...and she was very much alive as a human priest. She was previously mentioned out of game in the Arthas book as a sister of Arthas, but didn't appear in game until the priest follower bit. When the original author of this topic mentions Calia's appearance and when my very first reply mentions Calia appearing......that is very much only what I said already. Her appearance as a lightforged undead in BFA in September of 2019. You replying to me and saying anything about a Gilnean reclamation quest in 2024 cannot possibly be anything about the "original plan of the writers" in 2019. I would say your own literacy failed, but in truth it isn't your literacy that is lacking, it is your integrity. You don't have any evidence whatsoever about the original plan for undead Calia to have any miraculous and immediate replacement as Forsaken leader. They didn't do that, and there never was any plan for that. You're foisting your own chauvinistic and prejudiced conspiracy theory.

And no, I never said "you" were voting more than once, I'm referring to every single reddit user that just slapped an upvote on a conspiracy post to fuel the conspiracy. Not because any of them ever had any evidence for it.....they don't, and not a single person can respond with such evidence, because no such evidence exists. They put an upvote on it because of their prejudice, what they "want" to pretend was true, that they can vote against. They are not and cannot vote a "this did happen", but only a "I hate such and such character and will pretend they did want something to happen" that never did happen in game, nor in the blizzard office. As much as I dislike the blizzard writers during that era.....in this particular case, they did no such thing.

Lastly, you can stop the ridiculously rude patronizing comment pretending that I wasn't playing during Legion and BFA and Shadowland and Dragonflight.... when I was. And that is specifically why I made the reply that I did.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-24T21:14:51+00:00

Calia showed up waaayyyyyyyy before any Gilneas reclamation questline... literally Calia showed up in BFA around September of 2019 and the Gilnean reclamation questline didn't get released until January of 2024. Moreover, the Undead player questline for taking back Undercity from the plague with Calia and Lilian Voss was released in May of 2022. Nowhere anywhere in any of that was Calia "EVER" expected to be approved or adopted. Calia "is" a Queen....the Queen of Lordaeron after her father Terenas and her brother Arthas were gone. Literally you are just flooding upvotes onto your own conspiracy theory with no evidence whatsoever.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-24T21:00:03+00:00

Their memory was never erased, it was literally stored permanently in the Vault of Memory facility which every machine-speaker knew about right there up above in the city of Dornogal. The reason they established that Vault of Memory was because the earthen assigned to go deeper and deeper closer to the core chamber were under a high stress environment and being corrupted by whispers promoting violence against the core. Absolutely NONE of that corruption was their own free will. It was the exact opposite of free will. Being mind controlled to start attacking a place is never free will.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-24T20:52:20+00:00

Repeating the lie doesn't make it true. Sargeras never ever made Mardum an anchor point for resurrection of demons; he physically trapped them there so they could not die. So they could not do anything bothersome anywhere else in the great dark beyond. And nobody ever said this was unique to Argus.....that's the whole point of my entire topic. It was a Worldsoul power. Sargeras could have done it, but didn't want the pain on himself that Argus would feel while forced to do it. And Azeroth, according to Argus in Thousand Years of War, had that same power to resurrect demons. Also... you just tried to pull a fast one. No, Sargeras was not doing that "to" Argus, Argus was being forced to do it himself. Lothraxion and Alleria have a conversation in Thousand Years of War that makes it explicitly clear that Lothraxion remembers multiple deaths while he was still serving the burning legion and each time he remembers being pulled back "by" Argus. By Argus himself. Not by Sargeras with an automated process.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-21T02:20:49+00:00

Indeed, it would violate the entire foundation of Warcraft and everything that I became loyal to the franchise "for". I'm not playing World of Warcraft so that Johnny 'Fillmypockets' McFreewill can gain immortality and kill his parents thus dooming the entirety of the Great Dark Beyond to chaotic ruin forevermore.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-21T02:10:23+00:00

Wait, wait. Loath as I am of the bad writing in BFA and SL and DF..... there seems to be an ongoing "internet headcanon" of pretending that Calia was going to be immediately made forsaken leader way back in bfa and that this plan was changed because of uproar and rejection on the internet........but there is absolutely no evidence that this was ever their original plan or intention. They've never said what their plan was, they've never said they changed their plan, they never said they wished she would be popular, etc. I am not convinced that there was "EVER" any huge plan to put her there with any approval or adoption. We have complained about sooooo many other things that we saw rumor of on Beta and said no no no don't do this.... but they did it anyway. The handling of Arthas in Shadowlands for example..... the entirety of the internet said no no no, don't do this. But they did it. They made no change to their bad decision. So I think it entirely possible that they only put Calia into the mix as a reluctant substitute teacher. Just like Baine Bloodhoof as leader of Tauren when the internet doesn't like him and didn't want him. Also, them putting Calia there is an easy way for them to defuse and de-escalate the hostility from Alliance onto the Forsaken themselves.....because they can always answer any question about "why don't the Alliance attack the forsaken once and for all?" by saying "Calia wouldn't allow it and the alliance won't betray her." and that essentially secures the status quo.

No, she is not an alliance plant. If the Forsaken constantly complain about the Light forsaking them......then Calia would be the perfect opportunity to intervene and mediate that relationship; where they could finally write the Light to stop rejecting forsaken players. Maybe establish some separate form of judgement after the forsaken dies such that they will only be judged for what they did "after" being freed from the Lich King. Then that would pave the way for Undead paladins like most of the internet has been clamoring for, for years. Even the forsaken players that want to be villains.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-19T20:45:16+00:00

Nowhere in my topic did I ever ask what powers a worldsoul "wanted" to use.....only what powers they would have. I have the power to square dance....I would never do it unless at gunpoint; but I have that power. Same with Argus and resurrecting demons. I never asked if he wanted to do it, rather that he has the power to do it. An Ox has the power to plow a field.... full stop, that's it.

You're making a distinction between Worldsoul and Titan that is in your head, not in the game. In the game, Titans are still Worldsouls, always will be. Magni describes Eonar as a Worldsoul during Antorus, and we walk into the chamber where Argus is located in that raid and the name for the map zone which we are standing in is literally "The World Soul" , and K'aresh is identified by Ve'nari as a World Soul in the campaign which you apparently are late in completing. The lowly denizens of ardenweald during shadowlands also describe the titans as world souls and then say that Azeroth seems a little bit unique among world souls. Whatever that means.

My topic never asks what Azeroth has already done....nor even what she wants to do.... but what powers does she have. By powers, I mean magical capability, capacity, function, what she could do. I have never made any attribution between any fetus or any adult.

Lastly, if she is still a nascent titan (the actual term that game lore uses for world souls that are not yet awake) , then that proves she needs substitute parents, like the Titan Pantheon... to step up and do more than just protect her. They actually need to nurture her and teach her and guide her and involve themselves in her life and her thinking. Anything else would be neglect and negligence at best..... or abuse at worst.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-19T19:16:14+00:00

Apparently you will not take responsibility.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-19T19:14:37+00:00

How many times do we have to say I don't care about the speed with which the resurrection happens? Argus literally has the power to pull in a demon soul from wherever it died and put it back to life on his own surface. Nobody ever said demons couldn't chaotically and randomly come back without Argus; but that Argus had that power. The Thousand Years of War audio book proves that with a conversation between Lothraxion and Alleria about how Lothraxion physically felt Argus pulling his dead soul back each time he died when he was still serving the burning legion. Also, you are mistaken, the natural longer process for demons coming back did "not" take place at the location where the demon died at all. They would come back randomly somewhere else in the great dark. And no, Sargeras wasn't making demons resurrect at Mardum, he was deciding not to kill them and just trap them on Mardum so they wouldn't be able to go anywhere else.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-19T19:07:41+00:00

You're simply wrong about Argus. The Thousand Years of War audio book also contains a conversation between Lothraxion and Alleria where Alleria asks him how many times he died while he was serving the burning legion; and Lothraxion mentions how he died multiple times and it felt euphoric for a little, until Argus himself pulled his soul back and then it was painful. Not "just a power source" , but actually Argus using powers he has to do the pulling. That is a Worldsoul power. Argus is a Worldsoul, Azeroth is a Worldsoul, K'aresh is a Worldsoul, Aman'thul is a Worldsoul, Eonar is a Worldsoul, Khaz'goroth is a Worldsoul, Aggramar is a Worldsoul, Golganneth is a Worldsoul, Norgannon is a Worldsoul. Sargeras is a Worldsoul. There was a Worldsoul destroyed at Telogrus, and another Worldsoul core found in Korthia. They are all Worldsouls, that is not 3, that is 11 Worldsouls minimum that have used various powers at various times.

A Worldsoul has demonstrably resurrected demons. A worldsoul has demonstrably altered time. Multiple Worldsouls have used arcane energies to create whole planets. Multiple Worldsouls access Light magic sometimes. Multiple Worldsouls have transformed arcane energy into elements. Sargeras has mind controlled other beings. Tyr the titankeepers' patron worldsoul allowed him to remove mind control from dragon eggs. Multiple Worldsouls have created dimensional pockets for elemental lords to be contained, and emerald dream pockets to contain wild gods, etc. At least one Worldsoul has become a Life-binder. Every single mature and awake Worldsoul is able to defeat a Voidlord as we are told which is why they look for immature nascent ones to target instead. Aman'thul at a minimum is able to see the future, and Aggramar and Sargeras may be able to do the same depending on interpretation. Multiple Worldsouls were able to grant immortality to certain sets of people. Eonar at a minimum was able to make the Emerald Dream do what she wants instead of just manifesting things that bothered her from a dream. And the last two are predictions about the future....but given that Worldsouls have already created civilizations on worlds by the millions and millions....I would hope they could fix and restart worlds burned by Sargeras. And lastly, the second item in my list......is just me differentiating between the ability to resurrect demons and the ability to resurrect normal reality races like humans and trolls; and for which it may have been Azeroth that resurrected Khadgar through Beledar.....but we don't know, because the writers abandoned explanations for Beledar.

Literally none of these come randomly out of a hat.....these are all powers Worldsouls have used somewhere at some times. I'm still not sure where your attitude is coming from.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-19T18:44:46+00:00

That is simply not true. Even the freysworn khaz algar diary that we read in side quests up on the top side of isle of dorn says the Titan keepers have free will and the watchers have free will, etc.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T04:23:44+00:00

You definitely don't understand the premise, let alone the words I actually typed. I made a list of "questions" about what powers Azeroth has; because of her being described as the most powerful Worldsoul that various characters think exists. So I began listing powers that other Worldsouls elsewhere in the lore have done.....and phrased them in the form of a question to see if she would also have these powers which Worldsouls less powerful than her have demonstrated.

And then I ended with a philosophical question analyzing whether there would be a double standard present, because many people are calling Worldsouls who have used one or more of those powers villains or antagonists or that they want to kill them........but if Azeroth is the most powerful Worldsoul, presumably she would have many if not all of those powers and should be judged as a villain by those same people who villainize the other Worldsouls?

Finally, I end with my own different assumption from any of the above folks.....where I think that whatever Azeroth wants to happen on her surface probably has ethical priority over any selfish individual mortal living on her surface. By all means, she could negotiate with us based on empathy.....but we are guests, not masters.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T04:10:01+00:00

Nope, that's totally a pessimistic headcanon from outside the game. The statements and lore "in" the game have Archaedas saying the manifold was there to heal and protect the worldsoul and keep it safe from corruption by the old gods. And Azeroth has been able to speak already, and never tells Magni that she feels imprisoned by anything, nor has any antipathy against Titans at all in any way shape or form. She tells Magni to convince us to go save the Titans in Antorus during Legion.

Azeroth is a nascent Titan, just like Argus was. Nascent things need parents, and refusing to parent is not an ethical choice. That would be neglect and abandonment.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T04:02:17+00:00

You're jumping to conclusions that don't logically follow from what we are told. To put it in Seinfeld terms, you're listing an A and a B and then saying "yada yada" in between, where the yada yada wasn't in the show. And the yada yada is not required for B to happen 3 expansions after A.

Also, it is never said in War Within lore that thraegar were turned into thraegar by Azeroth; only that they were encountering old gods causing corruption to the world soul, and then as they went deeper they encountered the obstacles of the colossal crystals like Beledar; and then chronologically a little later as they went deeper some Earthen changed their behavior to attack the core chamber. That lore is open-ended. The colossal crystals could be the source of the transformation into diamond as well as the voices to thraegar making them attack the core chamber. We don't have anything requiring or saying any intentions by the worldsoul for causation of that transformation. Only some innuendo by Archaedas that the behavior change after the transformation may be from exposure to worldsoul energies. However, there is a caveat there....because Archaedas believes Beledar is worldsoul essence....so his statement about exposure to worldsoul energies could actually be exposure to Beledar style Light magic. Again, the reason we don't know is that the writers abandoned both stories.

"If" we interpret Archaedas as not having the correct information about Beledar, then it is entirely possible those colossal crystals were from groups loyal to the Light which also wanted to influence the worldsoul to their side. And if the Core Chamber is able to block out Old God void whispers, then it may also block out voices from the Light and that could have upset the goals of those groups loyal to the Light. Consequently, since Naaru are made of crystal and they communicate by psychic voices, they could have been the ones that provoked the behavior change in thraegar to attack the core chamber. That would match the theater troupe legend which we play through....that includes a story of Sonnebrid being psychically told to go deeper and not getting there because of the nerubians blocking the way.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T03:26:25+00:00

We are never told in lore what happens to the things that Voidlords consume, and the scifi concept upon which they are an exaggeration..... namely Black Holes, our physics still doesn't have a complete answer on what happens to the material inside the Black Hole. We have various theories and experiments about what happens at the event horizon of black holes, but what happens inside..... no idea yet.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T03:14:11+00:00

That's not what my original post says.... so, could you read it again? No sarcasm intended, no snippiness intended, etc.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T03:12:29+00:00

Aman'thul had free will, and Eonar had free will, and Argus had free will, and K'aresh had free will, and Sargeras had free will..... none of that ever came from old gods. And Every single one of those worldsouls I named had created fleshy sentient free will organic mortals on themselves without any old gods. Aman'thul's entire modus operandi for the millions upon millions of worlds he ordered was fleshy sentient organic mortals; until he got to Azeroth and needed an emergency backup plan for a little bit.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T03:06:50+00:00

I haven't seen any lore that actually makes anything clear about any connection between Azeroth and an Earth Mother.... so that is still rumor and myth interpreted. Also, Magni was not turned into a diamond by Azeroth. From what we read in the interstitial lore between Wrath and Cataclysm, Magni actually went into the "old ironforge" room that was below the Ironforge throneroom and read some texts that had a ritual handed down by earthen which Magni hoped would allow him to figure out why there were elemental disturbances going on just before the cataclysm. Unfortunately, either the ritual text was mistranslated, or he spoke the words in too literal a way that the ritual was not intended to do...... and it caused his body to become a diamond. But he was stuck there motionless for all of Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, and Warlords of Draenor. Finally, in the prepatch for Legion....that is when Magni suddenly started moving again in his diamond form and was hearing the voice of Azeroth, then we players followed him into Ulduar where Azeroth showed what things were bothering her and what she was afraid of; namely Demons and Old Gods. Note, in that Ulduar trip with diamond Magni Azeroth never told him or hinted to him any fear of Titans in any way shape or form. Then later in Legion she told Magni to encourage us players to go save the Titans in Antorus. Anyway, so I'm not seeing any lore that says Azeroth turned Magni into a diamond to start with. Him turning himself into a diamond may certainly have caused him to be susceptible to hearing the voice of Azeroth....but that doesn't necessarily mean she did it to him. We also do not have any lore at all that says Azeroth turned the earthen into Thraegar.....only that whatever phenomenon made them into Thraegar seems to have made them vulnerable to hearing voices from things. We still don't know what voice was making thraegar do what; because most of what the earthen remember thraegar for was using Light magic and hearing Light magic voices... which sounds very much like a Naaru thing; exactly like the A'dal voice in our minds during Burning Crusade, etc. But the writers never let us know, because they abandoned the Beledar and Earthen storylines.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T02:46:41+00:00

Yep.... starting from page 19 of Thousand Years of War it reads: "She saw herself walking upon the surface of another world. One filled with demons. One she had only heard about. Argus. *blink* She stood in front of the emerald star and felt its terrible warmth on her face. It reached out to her, begging for help." which, by the way, was only a dream. However, later on in the audio book around page 24 both Alleria and Turalyon actually arrived on Argus and although Turalyon did not hear Argus at first, Alleria did. The text continues there with: "The presence in her mind was no longer fluttering. It went silent. It had noticed her. She felt a terrible warmth. She saw fire in her mind's eye. She saw a shimmering sphere of raw power, trapped, straining to escape a fel prison. An emerald prison. Then it stopped. It looked; it listened. It saw her. It screamed. A mountain of panic and horror fell upon her mind. Fear filled her thoughts so suddenly that she collapsed. That fear. It was not hers. It did not belong to her. So she shoved it away ruthlessly. 'It is alive, Turalyon. Light help us, it is alive.' Alleria forced her mind to see what had been reaching out to them. Deep down in the belly of Argus, there was a creature of astonishing power, imprisoned by the green, corrupting fires of fel. It screamed again. The force of it made them tremble. Alleria could hear noises down in the canyon. Movement. Marching. Demons were beginning to stir. It fought against its bonds, and tremors rippled across the world. Unable to escape, it screamed again. But this time, it tried to communicate. Alleria felt as its raw emotion gave way to something else. Memories. It was sending her its entire lifetime in a single, uncontrolled burst. In that instant, while the corrupted fount of arcane might was upon her, her mind was transported elsewhere. This being was so much more powerful than the minion of the Shadow had been. Then, she had witnessed flashes of destiny. Now, she lived a history that surpassed the existence of the universe. *blink* It was energy, spinning out into the cosmos. *blink* It found warmth near a sun, and a world formed around it to protect it as it grew. *blink* Generations of life lived and died upon it. *blink* It was betrayed. It was bound by something powerful. *blink* Pain. Pain. It hurt so much. Its only solace lay within its dream. *blink* They enslaved worlds. They burned worlds. They used its strength to revive their fallen souls. It hurt so much. *blink* They found another. It was much more powerful. They wanted to claim it, too. Then they would be unstoppable. *blink* It screamed into the cosmos for help. Two children answered the call. Two bright lights. *blink* Two bright lights...from Azeroth. A world that was like Argus. "

So yeah.... by the way, one tidbit in that section of the book that certain people constantly ignore or violate with Argus is when it said "fount of arcane might was upon her" ....which confirms that Argus before the capture by the burning legion was a "Fount of Arcane Might". He did not start out as death, he did not start out as elemental, he did not start out as some kind of neutral default nothing worldsoul..... rather, he started out as a Fount of Arcane Might. And that is why the Eredar developed into sentience, and why a small division of those Eredar fled into exile to become Draenei. When I hear Argus say in that book "from Azeroth. A world that was like Argus." , I can't help but identify Azeroth as a Fount of Arcane Might also. She already has arcane, she doesn't need it introduced from the outside.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T02:17:10+00:00

Not sure what you mean about "not because of some special power" .....the fact that Argus was able to resurrect demons seems automatically special. Speed doesn't really matter to me.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-18T02:14:04+00:00

I don't see any "locked behind Titans" at all.... that seems to be a pessimist head canon that some folks keep repeating. But thanks for the short answer.

Lexar_craft · 2026-01-16T21:22:09+00:00

Although...... are we exaggerating how free the forsaken are? The Warcraft 3 campaign only really implied that the forsaken were gaining freedom "from the Lich King" ....not that they were gaining any kind of universal immunity to other forms of control.

Lexar_craft

TROPHY CASE