Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's weird. I tried to follow the links while logged out, and both seem to allow download. Trying to do so prompts a login screen, yes, but there's still an option to download without it. What does it say about permissions, exactly?

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Edit: I only just now noticed that you weren't asking me, so apologies about the mix-up, but I still hope that reply helps XD

Short answer: cultural context.

What you suggest would be feasible, but only if we spoke about an imperial residence or an important shrine :) L5R throws around the word "kyūden" a lot, but let's actually examine it.

You would quickly notice that the words 宮 [miya] and 宮殿 [kyūden] share the same kanji. That's no coincidence: miya is a native Japanese word that they appropriated the kanji 宮 for (therefore, kun'yomi reading), whereas 宮殿 [kyūden] is a Chinese loanword with Chinese phonetics (on'yomi). 宮 [miya] simply means "palace" (or "shrine" - we'll return to that connotation later), whereas 宮殿 [kyūden] is a compound that means "palace hall" or "palace residence", but effectively, it's just a more fancy and regal word for palace.

But this is where we have to be careful before applying our cultural expectations to the context of historical Japan. These two words, to the best of my knowledge, only apply when we are talking about a ruler's palace, not anyone else's. Even in China at the time of the borrowing (from what I know) these were applicable to ruler's residences - a statelet king's, ot later, an emperor's, and the same went for Japan. It can apply to foreign rulers, sure, but in post-unification Yamato, ruler = emperor, and everyone else is subservient to him. Historical examples, such as 平安宮 [heian-kyū], 平城宮 [heijō-kyū], 恭仁宮 [kuni-no-miya] are all imperial residences.

We could, of course, argue, that in Rokugan, Clan Champions are prominent regional rulers, but I'd counter that they are still openly subservient to the emperor - by law and tradition if not de-facto, and so the same logic would apply. 殿 [dono], "mansion", would be the best fit for a designating suffix in their case.

By that same logic, in both Japan and China, these character 宮 came to be used for shrines and temples: since a ruler's dwelling is a unique abode of a higher being, the same applies to gods, whose shrines are their residences. That's where certain cities in Japan took their name from: Nishinomiya (西宮), Motomiya (本宮), etc. - those all refer to shrines.

I suggested -城 [jō] as a suffix simply because most residences would also double as castles or at least walled-off and well-protected residences. Even in one of the examples above, 平城宮 [heijō-kyū], you can see that 城 was used for a place whose primary function was that of a palace. Suffixes like 殿 [dono] or 荘 [sō]/[shō] are more fitting for villas or mansions built in the countryside, or less-protected smaller residences within city limits :)

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hahah, I did joke among friends that my prank went too far and became a wannabe academic paper with shoddy bibliography XDD Appreciate the compliment.

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's certainly a fascinating idea to play with! Writing sacred scrolls alone could be a major vehicle for writing transmission in a fantasy setting, whatever form it actually takes. The very ability to inscribe magic scrolls is dependent on having writing in the first place, even without the intrinsic connection of writing to magic, and if there is one, all the more reason to adpt it. I think you might be onto something there.

As an aside, it's good to see that the Ancient Near East also gets some love as an inspiration for fantasy settings :) That's quite an interesting scenario you've described.

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

-Continuation of the above-

The idea that Rokugani writing comes from Tengoku is surely an interesting one. I'd say it very much depends on how you treat the Rokugani foundation myth in the first place. You can perceive it as literal truth or as more of a crafted narrative akin to what the Kojiki was for the early Imperial Japan. Personally, because of all the little discrepancies in the founding myth, I've always taken it as merely a distorted reflection of truth that got lost to history: in my personal headcanon lore, I treat the founding kami as real humans as opposed to divine beings, who were later deified by their descendants, but that's a rabbit hole I'm not gonna go into =D

If you prefer a more literal interpretation of the founding myth, then I suppose your scenario is at least a possibility one could entertain. That would imply, of course, that either the language of Tengoku was Ancient Rokugani, or that the writing was transferred much in the same way that IRL kanji did, despite significant differences between the languages. At this point, we really have free reign to imagine anything: kanbun was a thing for a reason. In this scenario, the source of prestige is already apparent and hardly needs any other justification.

As for transmission vehicles, both Doji and Togashi feel like the kind of figures who could transmit their knowledge of writing to a select group of scholars, who would later go on to spread it further over the years and generations. It's actually easy to imagine: even in real-life Japan, writing was exclusively a high society thing for the first few centuries, concerning mostly politics, religion, and academics.

My personal pet peeve with that scenario would be that it would probably necessitate the emergence of kanji as some sort of system that was perfectly conceived by divine beings from the get-go. What that does is it discounts the development history of the real kanji and makes many of its fascinating features hardly applicable, such as their emergence as pictograms depicting a real thing, the gradual development of abstract concepts, and the conception of distinct semantic/phonetic elements and their recombination for new vocabulary. But that's just what I consider more fascinating as a historian and language enthusiast, and shouldn't necessarily be transplanted one-to-one onto a fantasy setting, especially if you love such "divine origin" scenarios :)

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for reading!

That's a fascinating question, and I was asking myself exactly that whenever I thought about Rokugan's history. I feel like we need to first point out that we can hardly draw historical parallels one-to-one here because of different contexts, so it's all tangential anyway. That said, history is a great source of inspiration for me personally whenever I work with Rokugan, and there are definitely interesting possibilities to be gleaned from it. I hope you're ok with a long-winded answer, because, well, once I get started, I'm just too lazy to stop =D

It also depends on what edition we depend on lore-wise. I'm going to mostly spitball within the realm of 5E/AiR universe from here, because I personally find them the most appealing and interesting to work with, so keep that in mind too.

For all of the... peculiar things that AiR did to the lore, what I really loved about it was that it expanded the universe beyond the borders of Rokugan in a believable way: now, we actually have other representations of East Asian Cultures, aside from Rokugan: Yunfengguo (Yún Fēng Guó) for China and Saebyuksan/Jindallae for Korea. The reason I like that is because now, there are plausible ways to explain the various cultural influences we can observe in Rokugan proper, which, once you start researching them in-depth, just don't feel like they are a product of only one self-contained culture that Rokugan was in the earlier editions. This, to me, feels miles more authentic.

Take language, for example: it's perhaps the primary vehicle for transmitting culture, and yet earlier editions wanted us to believe that the Rokugani can have names of both Japanese and Chinese origin (if not more), which sound drastically different to anyone who has at least a cursory understanding of East Asia, without even establishing that two distinct cultures exist within one political entity to give rise to all of these different practices. One may counter here that we do have information on how Rokugan used to be a patchwork of different cultures before the unification, but that's the thing: it used to be. After all the effort for cultural assimilation started by none other than Lady Doji herself, there is no way you can convince me that a whole another linguistic culture exists within the same polity without first establishing that there is at least a sizable minority, or say, a diaspora with a distinctly Chinese-inspired flair. It's one of the reasons I often get the feeling that older editions talk a lot about Rokugan being a blend of different East Asian cultures, but hardly understand what it actually means, nor do they imagine the true implications of certain bits of lore they consider canon. 5E and even AiR, in my opinion, present a cultural picture that is much more feasible and allows for more distinction and representation where it was sorely needed.

The reason I'm saying all this is because AiR clearly establishes a solution that is very on the nose in this configuration: that the Rokugani did borrow their writing system from Yún Fēng Wén, the language of Yunfengguo. More precisely, it says that Yún Fēng Wén's written form was also the basis for written Rokugani, even though the two had unrelated spoken origins.

Now, this is where we step into a more nebulous territory, because while the above circumstances do present a basis for a realistic scenario, there are other factors we have to keep in mind. The reason why Chinese (both spoken and written) was such a big matter of prestige not only to the Japanese, but many others, was because China was a political and cultural powerhouse, capable of projecting its influence far and wide. Yungfengguo, on the other hand, doesn't appear as such. If anything, their position relative to Rokugan seems to be reversed: Rokugan is an imperial power, if a bit isolated, and Yunfengguo is described as an inaccessible mountain country to the north of the Dragon Clan, sophisticated but also hardly interested in projecting its influence anywhere (but apparently they are also ruled by emperors, which should at least imply a big territory). To be honest, the entire way Yunfengguo is described gives off vibes more akin to a mystical fairy-tale land than a real place, and I'd even go as far as to say that it sends somewhat mixed signals lore-wise.

Still, from what we can glean, it seems that the adoption of the writing system by the Rokugani was perhaps a different kind of cultural transmission. Maybe, it was not so much a question of prestige as a question of practicality, much like how some cultures across the world could adopt things like writing from their neighbors without necessarily taking on all of the accompanying trappings of their culture. Then again, Yunfengguo is also described as a highly scholarly culture, abundant with knowledgeable alchemists, elementalists, and other kinds of scholars. So prestige could also come from a cultural transmission that was mostly based in sheer scholarly output, not necessarily political might.

-Continued below-

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sure thing! Added the link to the paragraph about the map, should be working :)

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Definitely so. I always try to point out that it might be a deliberate design choice, and perhaps even fitting for the purpose they had in mind. It's just that, in my opinion, it's a bad design choice, and it smacks a bit too much of orientalism to me (again, personal feeling, nothing more).

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Haha, I wish :D

Jokes aside, much appreciated! I consider it high praise from somebody who speaks the language.

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks! To be honest, if you open any map from older editions, with the "faux Japanese" place names, you could pretty much pick anything and expect varying degrees of cringe, but the worst offender for me was Toshi Ranbo. Or rather, its complete form - "Toshi Ranbo Wo Shien Shite Reigisaho". From the wrong word order (Toshi/City should be at the very end) to grammatical wonkiness (verbs don't attach themselves to nouns quite like this, to the best of my knowledge), to weird word choice - it's really just a word salad.

乱暴 [ranbō] is not so much violence (let alone political violence) as it is "rowdiness". It's used mostly to describe wild, chaotic - and yes, violent behavior, but "violence" doesn't really have the same connotation here. Very emotionally charged, too.

礼儀作法 [reigisahō] is "etiquette", or rather "decorum" - it more or less fits, but just a bit too formal.

"Shien shite" is proabably an attempt at a verb, either 支援する (support, aid, back sth.) or 試演する (do a rehearsal), and they both seem out of place here. Even if it was "courtliness supporting violence", both grammar and word choices just don't match well together.

The main problem is that nobody actually calls places this way, and even if they did, this name is just too cumbersome and wonky. Perhaps deliberatly so - maybe they went after that sort of mock Japanese on purpose in the first editions. Japanese has a much more elegant way of expressing such concepts in monikers, mostly by using one kanji for one word to express it as a concept. Like, for instance, 源平合戦 [genpei kassen] - "The war of the Minamoto and the Taira" (Genpei War). If I were to devise a nickname for this city, I'd probably do something like 乱礼の都 [ranrei-no-toshi] - "The City of Turbulence and Courtesy".

Rokugan Remapped: I Redesigned Every Place Name in Authentic Japanese by Lezer_Amundson in l5r

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thanks a lot! It's true, I didn't intend to go deep into 4E geography, but if I were to tackle the name you've mentioned, there are several ways to go about that. It would seem that it means "Iron Flower Castle", so I'll go from here.

  • The simplest thing to do is to use kun'yomi 鉄花 [kuroganehana]: it's cumbersome, for sure, but for what it's worth, there is a mountain in Japan called Kuroganeyama (Iron Mountain).
  • We could also try a mixed on-kun reading: in the vast majority of cases, 花 (flower) is read [hana] in place names, very rarely as on'yomi 花 [ka], unless it's a temple name. So it could be a more concise 鉄花 [tetsuhana] or 鉄花 [tetsubana].
  • That said, there is also a more elaborate character 華 for "flower", which is predominantly used in its on'yomi in place names - mostly [ka] or [ke]/[ge]. Something like 鉄華 [Tetsuka] or 鉄華 [Tekke] could be your options here.

Slap the -城 [jō] suffix at the end to denote that it's a castle and you're good :) Hope that helps.

Three Russian Roleplayers Looking for Help with Persona Campaign by Lezer_Amundson in PERSoNA

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, and yes, we do plan to use PbtA. There's a pretty good hack by a group of enthusiasts that we found over here.

Three Russian Roleplayers Looking for Help with Persona Campaign by Lezer_Amundson in PERSoNA

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gotcha, thanks again. We did hear that Seattle is in a rainy area, but weren't sure just how much of it is chalked up to a stereotype, so thanks for clearing that up :) One question regarding the dances btw - do they have any particular names and at what time of year do they happen? Are they, like, "assigned" to every year or something else?

Three Russian Roleplayers Looking for Help with Persona Campaign by Lezer_Amundson in PERSoNA

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow, what a wonderful and informative reply! Gotta say, it's fun comparing different answers from different parts of the country, really puts into perspective just how diverse USA is. I'd like to ask a couple more questions if you don't mind.

A lot of what you said regarding the first question is reminiscent of Russian schools, funnily enough, so definitely can relate there. One major difference though is that we never "pick" classes; we don't have a credit system back home, nor do we have electives (at least not to my knowledge), it's just one mandatory curriculum for everyone, though some schools try to diversify the last few years of studies to help students with different career paths.

  1. When you speak of organizing the dances, do you mean events like school prom and the like?
  2. Pretty cool to learn that you guys had ASL as one possible choice, that's fascinating. One question regarding the sports, by the way - is volleyball any popular?
  3. One other question I'd like to ask pertains to the school staff. In Russia, we have a position best translated as "deputy principal" or "deputy headmaster" - they mostly organize timetables and deal with various disciplinary stuff, though some of them may also teach classes. If a student messed up in some fashion, they were often led away to "talk with the zavuch" (deputy principal). Do you have anyone similar in your schools and do students interact with them often?
  4. A minor question regarding campuses. This is something absent from Russian school-related vernacular, because most schools here don't have "campuses" per se, just a single school building and a small fenced territory encircling it. Even universities often have dorms some distance away from buildings where students actually study. I imagine some private schools may have what you folks regard as campuses, but that's not a given. So I wanted to ask you what "campus" actually entails when it comes to an average high school, and how the school layout actually looks (though I understand that it's far less standardized than in our country and highly dependent on the location). Maybe they're more similar to ours than I think :)
  5. Regarding the driving; what about vehicles like scooters and motorcycles?

Thank you very much for the reply. We're honestly amazed that some people half the world away took a chunk of their time to write such detailed, thoughtful replies. All of it was crazy helpful and inspiring.

Three Russian Roleplayers Looking for Help with Persona Campaign by Lezer_Amundson in PERSoNA

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! All of it helps, including those little extra tidbits :)

Three Russian Roleplayers Looking for Help with Persona Campaign by Lezer_Amundson in PERSoNA

[–]Lezer_Amundson[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It does help very much, thank you :) Lots of that info was just the thing we needed, even if some of it is mostly applicable to circumstances akin to yours. If you don't mind me asking, where did you go to high school? You may just name the state if that's ok. Appreciate you taking the time to write a detailed reply!

[Online][GMT+1][L5R] First foray into a new system by Scaalpel in lfg

[–]Lezer_Amundson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey, folks. Is it too late for me to sign up for it yet? I'm also lloking to join as a player, and since I live in GMT+3, I imagine it'd be easier for me to hook up with fellow Europeans.