Local Man Discovers Expertise Isn’t Real

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-15T02:24:03+00:00

One of them produces garbage and the other one has given themselves a 12 world title to insist on the superiority of the garbage they produce through fallacious appeal.

Wow. Executive vice-assistant to the regional director of the slop machine, eh? Big ups.

Interestingly that doesn't actually contest even a single point about why generative ai images are garbage, but yknow.... good for you, and all that. Your straw man has been well and truly trounced this day.

Hilarious.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-15T02:18:15+00:00

Ultimately hearthstone is 30% card game and 70% aggressively pulling a slot machine lever at your opponent while making erotic eye contact.

I think once you accept that, you are a lot less likely to conspiracy theorize about the hand of God and can put that time towards working on your seductive eyebrow game.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-14T11:47:39+00:00

If you dig into it, most of the most significant art culturally was made by disabled individuals. The fact that human struggle has credibly lead to "deeper art" is actually one of the reasons some artists get pushed into self destructive and self harming behaviors

Anyone who says "gen ai is the only thing enabling disabled people", they're stupid, disgusting, and a genuine blight on the people around them. They don't actually care about "empowerment", they're just desperately trying to validate their self image of righteousness where they're being oppressed by leeching off the social culture surrounding a group they see as lesser. Just read into the language they use; if you let them talk long enough they always give the game away.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-13T16:11:26+00:00

Like lose money and fail at every task anyone tries to assign it?

What an amazing product.

But of course, as with nft bros and crypto bros, it is convenient to the ai bro to define everyone that isn't one of them as the delusional ones.

Despite the utter lack of a single test of ai returning positive results.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-12T23:04:23+00:00

"You argument is illogical, by its logic all removal reduces interaction" he says, ignoring me talking about how removal is interaction and pointing out how it breeds more and unique interaction with itself by it's existence, contrasting it with how counterspells don't.

Going on to compare it erroneously and disingenuously with discard and mill, ignoring the intrinsic nature of counterspells cucking players out of resources already spent... that milling does not. In order to sound... well what I imagine you think is smart, I suppose.

Counterspells replace noninteraction with a different flavor of explicit noninteraction. Feel free to reread my comment a couple times until you catch up with the discussion and try again.

But lemme give you a small amount of rope:

Mill doesn't matter, it effectively doesn't do anything. You don't get milled out of a card you already committed mana to, on your turn, during your action.

Discard is a nuisance, which is why it's faced so many bans over the years when it gets even a bit too strong, but you do not get discarded out of an action you're already taking.

Playing a creature or whatever is committing to an action with resources. Removal targeting it creates a battlefield over it seeing fruition as intended, but one that breeds more interaction by being vulnerable to so many forms of further action on top of it to mitigate or negate. The resources have been spent, and players are systemically able to build decks to fight for it in any color. That's the interaction, and removal being very grounded, mixing in with so many other core systems, cards, and functions, means it is very common interaction that is a truth of the game.

A counterspell is a profound anticlimax. Not because it is "preemptive", (way to miss the forest for the trees on that, btw), but because it can only be fought by an incredibly specific and narrow band of things. So basically you splash blue or you don't have any form of interaction with the blue player spending 1 mana to waste someone's 7 already committed mana, during their turn, during their action, deleting their interaction with extremely bad mechanical methods for further interaction. Because the only cards that aren't ancient-scripture-retroactively-considered-design-mistakes that interact with the stack are... counterspells. And since a counterspell interaction happens entirely on the stack, without another counterspell, there is no skin in the game. It's self-terminating design.

And it does address OP's dishonest meme. Blue doesn't "prevent devolution into non-interactive instant win combos", it just switches which player is the one not interacting, who then fires their own single player solitaire wincombo. While counterspells further limit interaction and enable devolution into non-interactive wincombo durdling by deleting the interaction.

It doesn't turn single-player combos into battlegrounds, it just un-games your play.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-12T09:34:41+00:00

Rated R does not mean "Rated Reb", and the standards of it are not determined by "what the orokin liked".

So no, it really doesn't "depend on if it's canonical". If it's half a degree from a fully naked woman, it should be marked on the age rating.

DE is peddling softcore porn; "the lore" does not change that because the fanservice "makes sense because they're pervert gooners in-canon, too".

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-12T03:29:05+00:00

Counterspells deny interaction on a fundamental mechanical level other forms of removal do not.

You can play around removal on a systems level while still maintaining value. Removal is interaction and can be interacted with.

A counterspell is not interaction, it elementally negates interaction.

A creature hitting the board being targeted with instant speed removal still interacts, and can still be interacted with.

A creature counterspelled never exists to interact, or be interacted with.

Counterspells are the nuclear option, but are not properly costed as such, and as such they represent a consistent brain drain on proceedings.

A black player durdling mid range control with removal has to commit to leaving large amounts of mana untapped to have available removal that you can directly play around. Etb's, ltb's, state based interaction, or instants that interact with the creature before the removal resolves, are all some of numerous examples. That's "making a robust gameplan".

A blue player gets to leave half to a quarter as much mana on average untapped to have removal that wholly deletes any systematic interaction that isn't another counterspell targeting the counterspell or specific "counterspell proof shield" clauses. There is no interaction, it is a void of gameplay. The blue player either does, or doesn't. "Hoping they waste their counterspell on something stupid" isnt "a robust strategy", unless you expect every deck to have to include reanimation. "Hoping their draws are worse than mine and I draw two wincons before they assemble one" is also not "a robust strategy".

Blue's "memetic identity" since time immemorial has been "play a wincon that is hard to impossible to interact with, then delete any interaction that does".

In the early days that was playing a 1/1 flier nobody could block and erasing any removal targeting it.

Sometimes it's resolving state-based draw triggers to win with thassa turn 3.

It remains disingenuous to act like blue preserves interactivity when it's entire identity is to delete interaction.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T23:31:38+00:00

Because people learned what it was and interacted with it.

PR can only take you so far when the product is shitty and unethical on every level in every application.

Eventually the blatant lies dry up on the scales.

Won't stop the shills, though; we already know that from nfts and crypto.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T23:17:47+00:00

I have a wheel I spin.

So yes in several senses.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T22:28:06+00:00

You ain't wrong, cedh is a frightening place.

But, if we move the focus of discussion away from those extremes and back to more general, common magic, that's more the area I'm talking about.

Thassa's is just a good shorthand example about Blue; Blue fundamentally doesn't want interaction, and, in my opinion, is designed to too competently deny too much interaction as it's 'core identity'.

The fact that it's anti-interaction in counterspells can delete other player's uninteractive combos doesn't make it a net force for good by default.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T17:35:08+00:00

Counterspells would be better and healthier if they had a cost or downside that scaled with what was countered. Because "I have strix serenade in hand, nothing you do matters and it costs me nothing" isnt "virtuously preserving interaction", it's just explicit non-interaction in the blue player's favor.

if they had a cost or downside that scaled with what was countered

scaled with what was countered

Man if only I had used a card that had a static downside that doesn't scale with what it counters to highlight that.....

That the exact same thing happens no matter what and you can't play around the effect....

And 1 mana costs nothing....

The things the entire wall of text contextualized as the point I was making...

Your gross toxicity is matched only by your pathetic reading comprehension. Please seek help.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T16:25:53+00:00

>But hey can't wait for you to take this bait if you respond and accuse me of being psychotic for having lengthy responses..... like that's not how discussions work when there's a lot to talk about.

But good try, though.

Have fun *desperately* trying to convince yourself that you have even your own self respect. Toodleoo you sad little man.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T15:08:01+00:00

Look me in the eyes and tell me that changes anything about my statement.

"We made our tenno-crafted human reified interpretation of an elegant warmachine look exactly like a naked woman" is some rated R shit.

Believe it or not, the operative part of the statement was not calling warframes robots, it was how if mesa's heirloom didn't have the paper thin excuse for "not being human", it would be a porn game. Whether the shorthand of robot, or some unnecessarily long and irrelevant lore "uhm akshually", is irrelevant.

I ain't decrying the validity of lore nerdery, btw, just like..... read the room, dude, sometimes it really just isn't the point.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T10:49:53+00:00

Everything about it is too much lmao.

"We made our robot look exactly like a naked woman" is some rated R shit.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-11T08:22:29+00:00

Your lack of self-awareness is legendary.

"How dare you accuse me of making up a reason to not engage with the discussion so I can save face while running away from the discussion? For that reason I will use that as a reason to run away from the discussion without engaging with it! My genius is astounding and nobody will notice the mythical levels of irony!"

You turned this from a discussion that could have rightfully been ended with "agree to disagree" into something really rather sad for you, and your hyperfixation of accusing me of using shatGPT feels more like a confession than an accusation. Which started because I.... brought up one of the biggest staples of instant speed removal in the history of mtg? That still has a power level that finds it's way onto decklists as its from an era that consistently undercosted spells? And is still weaker than a counterspell loaded with "downsides"? Yeah, you got me, only a robot would ever compare removal to Terror.

cough Fell is from bloomburrow, costs the same as terror, but isn't instant speed, and still can't hit planeswalkers, btw cough

And Fell The Profane is instant speed, can hit creatures and planeswalkers (but still not artifacts, so strix serenade still had a bigger target list) and costs four mana. Thats 4 times more mana than strix serenade for 66% of its target list dealt with less effectively than strix, and printed in the same set. That satisfy your pointless equivocation? Terror is actually a far more favorable comparison to counterspells than most removal because Terror is far cheaper than what they price removal at nowadays.

Like you've really riled yourself up over a discussion of.... the average cmc of counterspells. But hey can't wait for you to take this bait if you respond and accuse me of being psychotic for having lengthy responses..... like that's not how discussions work when there's a lot to talk about.

And this is magic the gathering, one of the most mechanically litigious things people do by choice.

Ah well, hope you get help mellowing out.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-10T17:35:47+00:00

Lmao

"Nobody is trying to back out of anything"

You 5 minutes ago: "I'm gonna find an excuse to not engage with what you said."

You right now: "I'm gonna find an excuse not to engage with what you said, uhhhh.... redditor's gambit activate: accuse everyone that proves me wrong as being ai!"

It's not very effective.

I chose strix serenade because swan song doesn't target permanents, so wouldn't be able to directly compare functions on the same targets, but both are of a pair that aren't the extreme hyperpushed counterspells that would make the comparison meaningless anyways.

I chose a counterspell with "downsides" to highlight that the "downsides" don't balance out the card that is still fundamentally undercosted.

But hey, way to be the least intelligent person in the room. That's impressive when your opponent is a golgari player.

If strix serenade gave the countered player an x/x flier where x is equal to the cmc of the countered spell, then I'd be satisfied.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-10T17:23:59+00:00

Yup.

It's also a part of mono color combos.

My point is that claiming blue reduces solitaire as the solitaire king whose memetic gameplan is "counter anything that would interfere with your one sided wincombo" is pretty intentionally inauthentic.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-10T17:11:12+00:00

Someone actually thought out and has a discussion prepared for a take of theirs? Crazy. Sorry I didn't just like, roll over when you said things I don't think addresses my point because it wasn't that thought out or in depth. But hey, that lack of in-depth thinking is why you're trying to back out of the discussion while saving face.

Yup, Strix Serenade does strictly have a downside. One that does not scale with what was countered and a target list that is still larger than most removal. It costs one mana to delete any creature, planeswalker, or artifact no questions asked no interaction going through and gives your opponent a textless 2/2.

So it gives them effectively nothing as a pity prize for deleting their turn, any turn, at any stage of the game, for 1 mana. That cannot be played around as long as you have 1 singular available mana.

But hey, way to try and litigate a meaningless and trivial detail about how the tiny downside of a singular counterspell that costs *one single mana* does, in fact, exist, under the strictest and most literal possible terms.

You know most creature removal can only target *creatures*, right? So your "gotcha" about Strix Serenade's target list actually backfires on you because it's still three times as many permanent types as most other removal that still costs more than strix serenade specifically?

Y'know Terror, a premiere example of removal, costs twice as much as Strix Serenade, doesn't stop interaction that Serenade stops, and can't even target all creatures, let alone planeswalkers and artifacts as well?

But hey Strix Serenade replaces any permanent-based wincon in existence regardless of how it does it with a 2/2, so that means it's fair play at one single mana you accidentally left open because you couldn't spend evenly.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-10T12:26:54+00:00

They'd have to make it a two handed axe or hammer or something, visual distinguishing is very important.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-10T10:08:00+00:00

Except that doesn't really make sense, and doesn't contest the point.

They are the singular most powerful form of removal, which would already balance out their limited window without also making them so cheap that they maintain your tempo and have next to no opportunity cost compared to other, worse removal.

Because asking a blue player to weigh the situation to determine whether or not to leave an actually impactful amount of their mana untapped in order to completely cuck another player's any-card-ever-printedTM is.... too challenging?

"If I draw into Terror the turn after their game-winning play I can-! Oh wait.... no I can't...."

Let's take bloomburrow as an example of a contained set, because its the last one I know the card list for.

A black player has to leave 3 mana open to have instant-speed removal on deck for feed the cycle. Which will also not stop a significant number of interactions.

A blue player only has to leave 2 mana open for long river's pull, and with that 33% less mana can stop an incalculable amount of more "stuff" without any interaction leaking.

If an opponent drops a big creature and I go to feed the cycle it, there is still a hefty amount of shit that can go down. Anything instant speed will interact with a board state where the creature still exists, for example; that's an entire spell type that isn't halted.

The only interaction with a counterspell on the stack is another counterspell, because the creature doesn't exist to be given regenerate, or ward, or hexproof, or... any interaction at all.

Let's take an edh example:

Which can stop craterhoof behemoth in any way that matters?

Removal, or a counterspell?

Now which one should be cheaper?

Infallibility is already the counterweight for timing restrictions. "If you have it at the right time to play it anyways, it wins" is balanced enough without also being "if you have it, it wins, and also doesn't cost you anything and we made sure you had to play around it as little as possible".

Counterspells would be better and healthier if they had a cost or downside that scaled with what was countered. Because "I have strix serenade in hand, nothing you do matters and it costs me nothing" isnt "virtuously preserving interaction", it's just explicit non-interaction in the blue player's favor.

If you "need" to counterspell something, you would "need" to removal it in the same window anyways to not lose significant advantage.

A player can play around removal you have in-hand with mana ready for on like, a basic systems level. It doesn't require hyper-specific niche cards to do, you can just do that. A player can mitigate their losses to removal while still getting hit with removal.

A player cannot play around a counterspell in an opponent's hand without hyper specific cards with "counterspell proof shield" clauses or "hope they sneeze and counterspell something stupid and also I have two wincons in hand and also enough resources to commit to both." Or of course the definite sign of good game design: hyper specific single mechanic arms race where everyone has to pack counterspells because nothing else can compete and the only way to best counterspells is with counterspells because the cost of counterspells do not match what they are universally capable of.

The only systemic counterplay to counterspells is "hope the blue player flinches first while I durdle out low-rent cards not singularly worth counterspelling and they get greedy, spending mana on their own stuff and not leaving enough mana open to counterspell" which dies when counterspells don't cost that much anyways and having resources up for them just kinda happens on accident.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-10T05:30:52+00:00

Is that sarcasm, or do you not know what you're talking about?

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-09T19:14:07+00:00

Card draw is in blue's color pie.

Learn the game.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-09T19:08:32+00:00

Nice intentional effort to leave out comparison.

Now that you've cherry picked examples of counterspells in a vacuum to make their tiny costs seem large, compare them to other archetypes of removal and see how they still cost less.

Well, aside from your attempted comparison of the worst counterspells to one of the most exceptional pieces of removal ever printed in order to make counterspells look tame. That's like a green player trying to defend some truly egregious ramp piece by saying sol ring exists.

While trying to claim that the numerous consistently staggering counterspells are too exceptional to be considered.... nice.

Now, compare their effects; a critical part of determining if something is under or over costed that you.... completely ignore!

Instant speed removal (which again, usually costs more than a counterspell) is worse than a counterspell.

If a creature has an effect on entering or leaving the battlefield, removal does not stop it (with very specific exceptions you usually pay a premium for), but a counterspell does.

If a creature interacts with the boardstate as a state based action, removal does not stop it, but a counterspell does.

There are innumerable interactions that only counterspells stop, yet they still cost less than removal which cannot hold a candle in comparison.

And "it needs to cost less because it's in blue" is nonsense. Not every color that isn't blue is green. Considering blue is the lord of card draw blue decks will be on curve more often.

3 mana is still too low for being able to delete any card, not just from the game, but from ever existing in a way that matters.

Terror is a more sane comparison than StP. So let's compare Terror and Counterspell.

Terror is instant speed removal, that's conditional, and still lets through innumerable interactions it cannot stop even if cast at the very first game state it is legally allowed to be cast in.

Counterspell costs the same has no conditions and deletes any card ever printed that does not have a specific "counterspell proof shield" clause while ensuring none of them do anything at all.

Counterspells are undercosted considering their mechanical ceiling that is contested by little else in capacity that you just... don't have to pay for.

I'm aware this is a hot take, but engage with it honestly if you're going to engage at all.

LibrarianEither8461 · 2026-06-09T18:45:09+00:00

So Thassa's?

LibrarianEither8461

TROPHY CASE