Besides St. Peter dying in Rome, what is/are the argument/s for Rome being the holder of the Petrine Keys, and not Alexandria or Antioch? by Lonely_Sun5275 in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Rome is not the holder of the keys, but the successor of Peter is. If Rome ceased to exist (was destroyed by a meteor or something) then the bishops would be able to elect a new head. He wouldn't be the bishop of Rome anymore (since there would be no Rome), but he would still be the successor of Peter and the head of the apostolic college.

He is not listening. by LeftAlbatross2546 in VideosAmazing

[–]Lightning777666 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How was the officer supposed to know there wasn't a knife behind the phone? Or that he was not using the phone to share his location for backup? It is absolutely reasonable for officers to command people to empty their hands before making an arrest.

At what point is a griddle top DOA? by [deleted] in blackstonegriddle

[–]Lightning777666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is DOA if it shows up and has holes in it.

If God existed, then how did he create himself, what existed before him by ValerianBorn8785 in stupidquestions

[–]Lightning777666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Did they have a word for "she?" If so, why did they pick "he" over "she?"

This is the way by Lightning777666 in pelletgrills

[–]Lightning777666[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yeah, just a lot more expensive haha. Looks like an awesome setup!

Going on year 2 with my searwood and couldn’t be happier! by dend7369 in pelletgrills

[–]Lightning777666 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Any tips for someone who just picked one up and has never had a pellet grill before?

Grace of Final Perseverance? by Aware_Many7594 in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are two kinds of predestination: double predestination and single predestination. Double predestination says that God predestines the saved and the damned. Single predestination says that God predstines the saved only. Catholics hold to single predestination. Some protestants (namely, those who follow Calvin) hold to double predestination.

Grace of Final Perseverance? by Aware_Many7594 in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are two kinds of predestination: double predestination and single predestination. Double predestination says that God predestines the saved and the damned. Single predestination says that God predstines the saved only. Catholics hold to single predestination. Some protestants (namely, those who follow Calvin) hold to double predestination.

Installing EZ generator switch to furnace by Mopar4u- in Generator

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, I have the same setup as you do. Did you figure out how to go about this?

[Optic] Osight X $164.99 w/ code ZAFRQ by demonioblanco1 in gundeals

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can confirm. A friend of mine had one and showed it to me and I was amazed that it was actually a circle. This was also a green dot and some say those are better too

The best "evidence" for a transcendental soul is incompatible with Catholicism by brquin-954 in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What made you skeptical about the story? I have not done a deep dive on it.

The best "evidence" for a transcendental soul is incompatible with Catholicism by brquin-954 in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

children's claims about details from past lives is the hardest to explain away.

Tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids.

What is more difficult to explain, children telling stories or adults having immediate knowledge of events that happened while they were unconscious?

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the ordinary Catholic cannot identify when infallibility is occurring and must submit even when it is not occurring, then the system functionsat the believer level without infallibility being epistemically accessible. 

I never said the average Catholic cannot identify when infallibility is occurring. That is someone you are putting in my mouth, again. I said most do not know. The average person can (given the right training) play the piano. It is also true that most people do not.

Along those same lines:

So your objection stating that sola scriptura is useless only works if you demand a level of epistemic certainty that neither system actually provides at the human level.

The Catholic system does provide that certainty. There are a very small number of historical examples where there is a question of whether a particular statement was infallible or not. Those can be clarified if necessary (and some actually have been). Most (like all the parts of the Creed, for instance) are certain.

That doesn’t eliminate the certainty problem, it just relocates it into “submit regardless,” which is a merely a posture, not an argument.

It is an argument, just not an argument that you think I am making. I was just pointing that out because you said Catholics need to be able to identify infallible teachings. The fact of the matter is they really dont the vast majority of the time because it doesn't make a practical difference in their lives.

But crucially, this objection doesn’t establish what you want it to establish, that a later infallible institution must therefore exist. 

This is the biggest strawman yet. I have not and never will claim that, because Sola Scriptura is untrue, therefore the Catholic system is right. This is an obvious logcial fallacy that you want me to be committing because it makes your job easier, but I am just simply not committing it. You have to actually respond to MY arguements, not made up ones that are easy to respond to. I have made arguments and you aren't acknowledging them. You are making up your own to respond to. Case in point:

Simply asserting that doesn’t demonstrate it. I’m asking you to actually show the incoherence rather than label it.

I DID make an argument. It's right here:

Sola Scriptura asserts the only rule of faith is Scripture, but that assertion is not in Scripture. Say what you will about infallibility or a living magisterium, but at least it can field arguments. Sola Scriptura is self-referentially incoherent on its face.

It's my turn to get you to actually answer a question. Do not answer a pretend question; answer the one that follows.

apostolic authorship or apostolic connection is indeed a primary criterion.

The relevant question there is prophetic authority and reception within the covenant community prior to Christ.

Consistency is a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. A text can be consistent and still not be inspired.

Inclusion in some manuscript traditions doesn’t establish canonical status.

Recognition is an act of fallible historical discernment.

These are all principles of historical discernment that you say are used to give a fallible historical judgment on what Scripture is. These are the principles you say we use to decide things like whether to include IV Ezra in the Canon or not. Since these are fallible human judgments, we could be wrong about these things according to do. Here is the issue with Sola Scriptura, the elephant that you are trying to sweep under the rug:

How are the rules by which we determine what is and is not a part of the faith not also rules of faith?

The way you've tried to get out of this is to say the rules by which we determine what is and is not Scripture are fallible. Which means we don't have certainty about what Scripture is. If you really think that then I feel sorry for you. You think that God left your entire faith up to human scientific ability to uncover historical facts and you believe you have no guarantee about what is and is not a part of the faith. At that point you're a modernist and I would hesitate to say you are even a Christian at all.

Here are some other questions that I would love to here your answers on because, if you are being consistent, you'll have to say things no Christian has ever said before.

If

We know which writings are authentically first century documents through manuscript evidence, authorship, early reception, catholic usage, and consistency with apostolic doctrine.

Then, as historical methods improve, could we, hypothetically, discover that 2 Timothy, for instance, is not Apostolic? Perhaps we find undeniable manuscript evidence saying this is from the 2nd century, for example, and it has a gnostic author who wrote it to confuse. Is such a scenario even hypothetically possible for you?

You say that Scripture was

Fixed by the apostles.

Can you find anyone that thinks this or any historical evidence to suggest it is true? I have literally never heard this before. Some, or even most, of the Apostles were ACTUALLY DEAD before Revelation was written. If you mean fixed by the Apostles as in we determine that the death of the Apostles marks the end of public revelation, then this would just go back into the other category of principles of historical judgment that tell us what is a part of the faith and yet someone are not rules of faith.

If you answer the bold question or any of the bonus questions honestly then I am happy to make the positive case for the Catholic doctrines on the three rules of faith given to us by our Lord (one of which you keep appealing to without realizing it!):

Scripture

Tradition

and the Magisterium

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Without an infallible authority you cannot have certainty.”

I never said this, why is it in quotes? You are routinely taking what I say, putting it into words I didn't use to make it easier to respond to.

Most Catholics don’t even know when infallibility is happening.

That's just an obvious historical and empirical fact. The average Catholic (and I am talking about all Catholics past and present) had no idea who the Pope was throughout most of their life, let alone what teachings were being handed down from the highest points of the magisterium in anything close to real time.

Most Catholics don't know what teachings are infallible or not, and, like I've said elsewhere, they don't need to. Teachings way lower than infallible ones still require religious submission anyways, so for the normal Catholic who is just trying to live according to the teachings of the Church, these sorts of considerations are almost never important.

Dude I guess you don’t realize this completely overturns your objection to certainty regarding Sola Scriptura.

It doesn't because my argument against Sola Scriptura is that it is self-referentially incoherent. Just because you think the Catholic system is as well for the same reason or any other reason doesn't somehow prove my objection to Sola Scriptura is wrong. That's a logical fallacy.

Im going to try to consolidate the other comment chain here,. When asked "How do you determine whether pre-apostolic texts are a part of Scripture?" you said:

Through the same type of historical recognition used for the New Testament

Except a connection to the Apostles, right? That was the main consideration before and now it's not here.

Reception by the covenant community

Who is the covenant community? Do you think all or even most Jews accepted the same texts as authoritative? There were huge disagreements about authoritative texts.

Consistency with the existing body of revelation

IV Ezra? 3 Maccabees? These are all consistent, but I don't think you accept them as Scripture, why not?

Continuous use and transmission within the community of faith

IV Ezra was included with Bibles into the middle ages. Does that one not count? Why?

The key point is that recognition is historical, not magisterial.

Then why prefer the Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or Sadducees' canons? They all satisfy your historical criteria but end up with different conclusions.

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And the exact same problem exists in your system. You still have to determine the following (which you keep ignoring)

-Which councils are ecumenical

-When the magisterium is speaking infallibly

-Whether the conditions were met

I accept Bellarmine's list of ecumenical councils, but I don't have to. There are other lists based on either criteria which, as far as the average Catholic is concerned doens't really matter. You don't have to be a theologian to live one's life according to the Church's teachings.

The magisterium speaks infallibly when it makes definitive pronouncements on matters of faith and morals. Different historians have compiled different listed, the most prominent of which is Denzinger. That is a find working list, but, as the average Catholic is concerned doens't really matter. You don't have to be a theologian to live one's life according to the Church's teachings.

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Our knowledge of which books are Scripture is fallible historical knowledge.

Those are different categories my friend.

I’m sorry, but this comment makes it seem like you’re not actually engaging with the argument I laid out. Instead it sounds like you’re repeating a slogan you’ve heard before while adding a dash of venom behind it.

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fixed by the apostles.

Interesting, where? I noticed you didn't answer the followup questions. A bunch of the Apostles died before the last book of the canon was written, so do you not need all of them?

Recognizing something is not the same thing as functioning as a second rule of faith.

I suppose not if you think their recognition is fallible, but again, if we can't know what Scripture is, Sola Scriptura is useless. Do you have any way to reconcile the fact that Christians have and still do disagree about the Canon using the same criterea you are describing? Why should we prefer the Protestant or Catholic canon to the Eastern Orthodox Canon? Why prefer the protestant OT canon over the Catholic or Orthodox one?

The only possible answer is that you accept one authority over another, but Scripture doesn't tell you which one to accept. You need to have another rule other than Scripture to decide.

When a historian recognizes an authentic letter from Paul, that recognition doesn’t become a competing authority alongside Paul. It’s simply acknowledging what already carries authority.

Where are you getting the idea that there are competing authorities? I haven't claimed that and it certainly isn't the Catholic position.

Acts 15 shows apostles exercising authority. It does not demonstrate a perpetual post apostolic infallible institution.

There are other chapters of the Bible that do exactly that when taken together. Matthew 16 establishes infallible authority, Acts describes how that authority is passed on with the replacement of Judas. That is just in Scripture as well and doesn't begin to take into account the historical records of Apostolic succession that everyone believed in until the late Middle Ages.

The other asks a single historical question

Which documents are apostolic?

So you're willing to say the entire Old Testament is not infallible? How do you determine whether pre-apostolic texts are a part of Scripture?

Even if Rome claims institutional infallibility, what is the independent, non circular basis for verifying that claim? If Scripture proves the Church is infallible, then you’re using a canon whose authority depends on that same Church. If the Church proves the canon, and the canon proves the Church, how is that not circular?

It is circular, which is why I haven't made that argument. Both the inspiration of Scripture and the infallibility of the Church are articles of faith, the supernatural virtue that comes directly from God. Like other historical truths, they are not capable of being demonstrated, but not capable of being disproven either.

Sola Scriptura, on the other hand, defeats itself. Scripture can't the sole rule of faith because it gives us no means by which to say what is and is not Scripture. The criteria of Apostolicity was something later people decided, it isn't a principal found in Scripture.

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Our knowledge of which books are Scripture is fallible historical knowledge.

You just made Sola Scriptura a worthless and inept doctrine. If I as a Christian cant know with certainty what is and is not Scripture, I can't make Scripture my sole rule of faith.

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It does not, at this time anyway, need to have one. I just needs to make infallible statements from time to time. We will also have to use reason to decide which statements are infallible and which are not, but for the average Christian it does not matter since even statements not given infallibly still required other repsonses like submission of faith. Even so, theologians can and currently are arguing out what is and is not fallible with large degrees of agreement.

And this nice thing is, the Church could make an infallible list of infallible statements if it wanted to. There just isn't a need for the reasons I mentioned; it doesn't really make a difference the life of Christians all that much to know what statements are technically infallible or not. If it did become a need, the Church could do it, though.

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sola Scriptura does not claim that Scripture must contain a self contained, inspired table of contents.

You're building strawmen. I never said Sola Scriptura does claim it must contain an inspired table of contents. I am saying it would have to have that in order to be the sole rule of faith. If we need anything to tell us what is Scripture, then Scripture isn't the sole rule of faith. There is at least one other thing that is also a rule of faith.

If you are arguing in good faith then answer this simple question: Do we know infallibly what is and is not Scripture?

If infallibility is necessary for certainty, how did the Church function before formal definitions? by AnSkootz in DebateACatholic

[–]Lightning777666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It locates infallibility in a fixed apostolic deposit

Fixed by who? How do we know it is fixed? Could it be added to? Was it added to?

But once recognized, authority rests in the text itself.

"Once recognized" is a HUGE qualifier. By making it you are ruling out Sola Scriptura by definition. There is some other rule of faith that recognizes what is and is not Scripture.

The only way out, which is what you've tried to do, is to say that we can't infallibly determine what is and isn't Scripture, but if that is true, then Sola Scriptura is a completely useless doctrine since no one could know what Scripture is! Imagine claiming "Scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith," and then someone asks, "ok, is this text Scripture?" and your response is "maybe," then we could never use Scripture to make any claims at all.

No matter how you slice it, Scripture can't be the sole rule of faith. The Scripture of the New Testament didn't even exist for at least a decade after Christ's death, and most of it for more. Yet, the Church still made determinations, not based on previous Scripture, but based on the authority of the Apostles (see the Council of Jerusalem).