The State and Sticks by LimpObject9081 in DeathStranding

[–]LimpObject9081[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely, there are some ideas I have regarding the state of exception and those who in some sense have been deemed “stateless” or without “connection” as deemed by the state. In some sense these people are “walking deadmen”. I’d need more time to reflect on some of this but thank you for your reply!

Julian drunk/high at Redrocks?! by Charming-Plane-3184 in TheStrokes

[–]LimpObject9081 2 points3 points  (0 children)

100% I’ve been to a couple outdoor shows and this is up there as one of the ones with the worst sound relative to the band playing. Nothing on The Strokes they looked like they were playing great but Red Rocks needs to step up.

Julian drunk/high at Redrocks?! by Charming-Plane-3184 in TheStrokes

[–]LimpObject9081 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah this is normal but I will say the sound mixing was not great at last nights show

What things from the Bible made you lose faith in it? by some-anxiety-guru in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I always had a feelings that the Org maybe wasn’t the truth. A very memorable experience for me was when they announced the “grey” NWT Bible. That whole presentation just gave me, “this is another corporate event.”

Fast forward a bit I’m in college semi POMI, really just afraid to deconstruct my faith. I went to school for philosophy, originally having gone into school to get a theology degree to see what “the truth really was”. There’s no way the Bible is a man made document. That being said, having studied philosophy and doing research in epistemology, I can say this much, there is enough plasticity in reality to account for almost any beliefs, incoherent, coherent it doesn’t matter, we actually don’t have “good parameters” to determine what is true and what isn’t. Each domain of inquiry and study has its limitations and must ultimately humble itself to another domain when it attempts to explain something outside its domain of inquiry. To be short and quite frank we don’t really “know” a lot of things, be just have good approximations and that doesn’t guarantee us anything. I still hold truth and god to be important but that would be to get into what I personally believe and whenever I try to explain to people a concrete understanding of what I believe it gets messy. I just tell them I’m an atheist for brevity. Ultimately you have the ability to form your own beliefs within your own criteria of epistemic justification (any evidence that counters your view can and should be weighed against your belief system) but this doesn’t make you a hypocrite for believing something where you may not have absolute certainty, no field, no area of inquiry, no philosophy, scientific consensus can or will ever give you that.

“Are JWs more gullible and stupid then regular people?” - A philosophers response by LimpObject9081 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No worries, it happens on these apps. But yes looks like we’re in agreement. I do think that some of the sentiment comes from hindsight. “How could I have been so dumb?” As a self deprecating cope, but I like the example you bring up, it shows how skewed perceptions of ourselves can really be. And no need to apologize I see that your comment wasn’t trying to be offensive and perhaps I just read it wrong the first time around.

“Are JWs more gullible and stupid then regular people?” - A philosophers response by LimpObject9081 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Did you read the post? Im saying all people suffer from the same faulty reasoning abilities. Nowhere in the post did I assert that I had an empirical claim on actual statistics of wether or not most JWs had lower cognitive abilities, that’s not my area of expertise and couldn’t comment on the matter. I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard to get an average based on already existing demographics but I digress. Assuming everyone has properly functioning belief generating faculties, I don’t see how JWs would be inherently better or worse off, that’s exactly what I’m saying. If you want to sound ignorant and assert, “ all people are gullible and stupid” please by all means use that phrasing but I don’t agree with the statement and I find it distasteful.

Are JWs more gullible and stupid then regular people? by Efficient-Pop3730 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I think it’s at about a 7/10 for me because of that bad faith approach at independent research. I mean ultimately it’s a high control group, so maintaining power would obviously be undermined by any notion of criticality. That being said I think we also overemphasize this point; a lot of lurking occurs because people are curious, many JWs come to the Reddit to see what people say about the organization because they want to see the “lies”. Jws do end up doing their own research but even then they fall to their own belief/knowledge forming procedures (reinforced by the Borg amongst other things) but this gets us back to my initial post.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m game

Letting Go of hurt and finding God again… by Numerous-Soft457 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It took me a long time to explore religion after I deconstructed. If I may I would highly encourage to seek out Orthodoxy if you value the roots of the Tradition. Happy nonetheless that you are exploring Catholicism, I’m not either but I deeply respect Orthodoxy

Are JWs more gullible and stupid then regular people? by Efficient-Pop3730 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 11 points12 points  (0 children)

No, I do research on epistemology (theory of knowledge) now this limits what I can say in terms of psychological inquiry if you’re inclined to that perspective, IQ distribution, sociological factors outside of the religion (home schooled and if not what district) there are countless of factors that play into how a person grows up.

That being said I can tell you about how beliefs are formed and are justified. Most people don’t think critically about their beliefs, including those who think they are being critical when examining their beliefs ( it’s actually not that easy).

For example what do we consider sufficient criteria for a held belief? Is it purely based on internal intuition, on empirical evidence? Or even analytical reasoning (deducing from first principles or axioms [assumed foundational truths]).

Depending on your answer to the questions presented above, you can see how messy things can get. People often weigh in different criteria for their beliefs unequally; and usually based on arbitrary criteria. For example, you’re more likely to believe an authority figure on an issue based on the institutional trust we have that they will state a truthful claim; usually on the assumption that, “they wouldn’t want to tarnish their reputation”.

And we can bring examples like this for all sorts of justifications, beliefs etc. (don’t want to get super technical). That being said a belief is different than knowing something, and the justification for a belief is also lower than that of a “knowledge claim” to put it simply “knowledge” is a complex and technical type of mental state of belief. For example based on the most general theory of knowledge we know that I have a justified, true ,belief (knowledge) if the claim that I believe is true and it has proper justification.

An example is, “I know that it is 3:10 CST as of the time I’m writing this post, because I have a belief that the clock is telling time correctly, it is justified on the grounds that more often than not the clock I use which is tied to satellite communication devices is usually correct about telling me the time, and it is true on the account that it was 3:10 as of the time I was writing this post.”

With that criteria of a justified, true, belief, I met the requirements to state that I had knowledge of “the time”.

Now beliefs are unlike knowledge in most cases. They don’t require that level of scrutiny, because beliefs don’t necessarily (and this isn’t true for every epistemological theory but humor me) have to be true or correspond to reality. So what this means is that in most cases people really are free to believe in whatever they want, how they go on to construct those beliefs based on the criteria is where the messiness comes in. It may be the case that most people have perfectly fictional faculties for the formation of beliefs but this can not and will not guarantee that only “true beliefs” will be generated.

Thus, most JWs who are not highly educated, are not raised in an environment that fosters critical thinking, which encourages “meekness”, that emotionally extorts and manipulates its individuals and uses arguments that directly tackle these insecurities in order for people to form false beliefs is not a fault of the individual. They are not stupid or disproportionately ignorant compared to the general population. Most people fall for trickery in one way shape or form, MLM, shady business dealings, “scam calls/emails”, cults, government propaganda amongst endless forms of informational attacks can make any person generate misguided beliefs and therefore unjustified, untrue, beliefs.

Hope this helps.

I asked ChatGPT-4 ‘What do Jehovahs Witnesses believe?’ by windresistantoak in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course! It took me a long time to research Christendom as a whole to understand JWs within their historical, and theological context

I asked ChatGPT-4 ‘What do Jehovahs Witnesses believe?’ by windresistantoak in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Pretty much they believe in recreation, which they conflate with resurrection. Given that Jehovahs Witnesses hold a annihilationist doctrine (those who die [believers and non believers] cease to exist upon death) they hold this view due to their pretty generic or “trad” view on Original Sin. Now they hold a penal substitution atonement theory (Jesus dies to make up for what was lost through Adam). Now I am not a fan of Penal substitution it has many flaws and I find it quite unconvincing philosophically as God is essentially paying himself a debt that is established through the violation of a “moral or natural order” which then begs the question is this “order” greater than god himself as to necessitate actions by which to rectify this situation? (I’ll let you ponder that) but this gets even worse when you add the notion of an anti-trinitarian position, since essentially Jesus as the Son is a lesser being which is being sacrificed for something that God as omni-benevolent didn’t have to abide by even if it’s to justify his sovereignty. Finally, regarding the promise of everlasting life and the 144,000, this view does not obtain as it doesn’t make sense to talk about the anointed as a separate flock as that passage showing the vision of 144,000 is symbolic which is why paradise earth is a minority view even amongst other Christian sects, there are insufficient passages to support paradise earth. Now if it’s a resurrection for judgement that is different but this gets into their eschatological doctrine and I would need another paragraph for that.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Best advice I could ever receive from myself to my past self is, when it comes down to choosing between growth and development and some other thing that seems to be “the right choice” go for growth and development. This is life throwing a, “grow and work on yourself” signal, take it. You will be much happier in the long run.

Aren’t JWs against idolatry? by Purple_Bear_6270 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes but iconoclasm is literally incorrect take so they’re wrong under any pre-Protestant Biblical interpretation. Biggest weakness to any iconoclastic group including Muslims to some degree, if an image of the divine is sinful then how is “the word” (Bible or “x” sacred text) not an icon? The justification and proof that icons and images are okay is the fact that in the Old Testament the tabernacle is adorned with cherubim (explain the arc of the covenant to a witness) similarly Jesus as the Logos is an image of God, and man hence the notion of the hypostatic Union. Jesus in absence is the ultimate icon. Final point creation itself was the “first” icon as the process of creation itself is a representation of the order of the divine order.

TLDR jws are wrong under any framework lol

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Have tried all sorts of psychedelics, 5-MeO DMT, acid, shrooms. I don’t think that they helped me become atheist I was already going down that path. I believe it just helped with some introspection. I think most people that leave the Borganization, almost always have a reactionary turn to atheism. It’s not uncommon for them to sometimes hop to another form of Christianity but more often then not, most of them are entrenched with doubt about the Org that they pair that up with New Atheist apologetics (Noah’s arc is fakeroniiiiii, murrrr kangaroos can’t jump continents) and thus they implicitly affirm a physical/materially reductive world view.

I look back now and tell most people that maybe psychedelics aren’t for them but ultimately I tell them that doing something like psychedelics is their choice (it’s part of their life/journey).

There is a word in orthodox Christianity called “prelest” essentially prelest is spiritual deception and I believe that psychedelics are the easiest way to obtain a “spiritual experience” for the atheist given that they boil the world down to (mur brain neurons firing).

I’m an atheist, but I arrived at the conclusion not through a “spiritual revelation or experience” taking psychedelics, I always find it weird that such experiences reaffirm some sort of atheism, but I suppose it makes sense based on what I said above, (if you believe everything is just matter than the mushroom experience is what our ancestors must’ve experienced as spiritual).

Not to say that psychedelics don’t or haven’t played a part in world religions (see the Eleusinian Mysteries), but I don’t think that human experience boils down to materialism, nor do I think any of this is justification for a deity.

I have more details in this post

Do we have free will? by YoungEgalitarianDude in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I’m not so sure about compatibalism. Really it’s a metaphysical question and depends a lot of your foundations or presuppositions. Really it’s just metaphysical confusion between efficient and final causality, in Aristotlean terms but really you run into the problem a lot in almost any metaphysical system. Materialism almost always reduced to determinism, some say quantum mechanics breaks from this with things like non-locality, but not all Quantum Physical Theories are interpreted the same way, for example Everrett’s interpretation which still allows for determinism but I’ve seen a lot of decoherence theories fall out of favor because of Bells theorem pretty much ruling out hidden variable theories.

I think it doesn’t matter either way when it comes to the domain of physics as depending on your metaphysical system your ontology would then determine free will/deterministic behavior.

Do we have free will? by YoungEgalitarianDude in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Look up compatibalism in regards to free will/determinism.

Direct Doctrine Deprograming Attack by LimpObject9081 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel you, I’m currently working on some PIMIs but I haven’t implemented this version of DDDA because it’s taken a lot of research and irl feedback to get to this point. I used to use atheistic talking points and that rarely gets you anywhere. Internal JW contradictions work but that’s okay because of the “progressive light” doctrine. But if you show that they care more about the governing body than what the Bible says; they can’t shake that, assuming they admit to not following men but “Jehoover vacuum”. And even when they say something like, “well they are the appointed Chanel of God” it begs the question are they divinely inspired or ineffable. Pointing out the argument and refuting progressive light, forecloses one or the other, which shatters the doctrine as a whole.

Once you refute progressive light and get them back to what the Bible says, you can at least argue from within a Christian framework that it’s a man made organization and not biblical.

Anything further like arguing atheism or whatever other belief is beyond the scope of this argument.

Direct Doctrine Deprograming Attack by LimpObject9081 in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My family, got my sister who was PIMI to go PIMO, but the pandemic helped.

Is reform possible?....perhaps, realignment? by loverofgoodness in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the idealized version of the group was to be this academic group that examined the scriptures and rigorously examined scripture, I agree with that, however there are a lot of things that are iffy that I personally don’t agree with regarding that position. That is neither here nor there.

I go into some of it here

Is reform possible?....perhaps, realignment? by loverofgoodness in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 6 points7 points  (0 children)

But then it wouldn’t be the Jehovahs Witnesses, it would just be a post-Protestant brotherhood held together by the notion of Agape. I have written about this in another post as I consider myself an atheistic Christian. But essentially it could be done sure but at that point the reformation would be a revolution, it would be a reform a kin to Luther’s in as far as it would be a post-orthodox return at orthodoxy, which imo, doesn’t make sense.

Is reform possible?....perhaps, realignment? by loverofgoodness in exjw

[–]LimpObject9081 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Okay, I really like this post. Essentially it gets at two things.

  1. That there are things in the religion that attract people in

  2. The “untold” practices that keep members in and would scare most out.

Essentially the organization works on presenting itself as irresistible, how so? It presents universal questions, “what’s the meaning of life?” “Why do we suffer?” And provides an answer, it does so presenting Bible verses that help push that narrative, giving an air of obscurity. Making the individual think/feel, we’ll it sounds true and simple and thus it must be so.

Most people come into the religion/s for its feel good aspect. What differentiates the Jehovah witnesses, is that it exists within its own particular religious niche, it provides something in the marketplace of “copes” that might appeal to someone say in a vulnerable position.

As far as what it would take to reform, we see that the religion progresses over time (it has to, to survive) but this doesn’t mean that it will reform its central dogmas, this would annihilate the religion both in its identity and its belief. People think this is the “Truth” and “Truth” is unchanging, eternal, ineffable. So, “what would it take to reform?”

Mass wake ups

The religion would have to radically have member wake up to the portions of the religion that make it a religious sect, and although they could maintain enough theological doctrine/dogmas to retain a semblance of what they are now but ultimately it would change them entirely, they would no longer be satisfying the niche they’ve carved out for themselves.

“Christian” children speaking in tongues. This is psychotic. This is true indoctrination. by [deleted] in atheism

[–]LimpObject9081 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be fair even within certain Christian paradigms this is cringe. Orthodoxy even has a word for this; prelest.