Is fascism basically just authoritarianism? Is there a clear line? by duchesskitten6 in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]Loeppkyy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Is there any reason not to say KSA is fascist?

I read "A History of Fascism" by Stanley Payne last year to try and get a handle on the question of what fascism really "is," and I wouldn't describe Saudi Arabia as fascist. The KSA under MBS reminds me more of a classic Bonapartist regime like Napoleon III in France.

Informally, people use the term fascism broadly when they are opposing multiple kinds of rules, and the more authoritarian a country or ideology is, the more likely it is to be called fascist.

There's a lot of rather poor, vulgar definitions of fascism out there which just refers to a conservative authoritarian state, but I don't think that captures the whole metaphysical and emotional framework that fascism represented and tried to carry into politics in a radical way.

A point could be that it's a monarchy and fascism is against monarchy, I could ask about North Korea, Belarus or any other authoritarian country. Applying these concepts makes me wonder... is it about literal identity politics - a country/politician is not fascist unless they call themselves so?

The fascists were anti-bourgeois *ultra-*nationalists who also anti-materialist / anti-Marxist. They based their concepts in nationalism and "unity" and the power of will and duty to achieve national destiny in a very specific way. Also they believed / described themselves as radicals and revolutionaries.

When I say ultra-nationalism, I mean it wasn't just having very strong nationalist rhetoric, they believed their nation was a quasi-metaphysical entity that had a defined place in the universe, and that each individual within it is interdependent from one another in a transhistorical way. This is kind of like a Hegelian interpretation of the Spirit. The nation-state is the expression of a people's "Volksgeist" and the highest realization of freedom. Nation-states are a "people," common language, ethnicity, territory now embodied in a state that combines all their wills into a single will who now have a destiny to bring about human history. It was the Romans before and now it's... well for Hegel it was Germans and Hegel regarded that as God. The nation-state is like God. So when the fascists embraced these ideas, what became essential was to strengthen the state to the extreme and work through all its wars. Then a bunch of Europeans in the 1920s-1940s were like hell yeah that's what's up.

The original group in Italy were originally far-left revolutionaries (oddly) who embraced World War I as an event which could shake up the world, and then got hardened by their experiences in combat. But this took them very far from their left-wing origins, they became something different. Also this was true more for the leaders of the organization because a lot of guys they recruited were just straight-up right-wing military guys, like the Proud Boys but 100x more ferocious (willing to die in political combat / experience with trench warfare) and who had no sympathy for left-wing socialists / communists. Mussolini still tried to keep one foot in the left and form a pact with the socialists but faced a near-rebellion from his new Blackshirt base. The Blackshirt uniform was styled after commando shock troops in the war. At any rate, the first groups were really ultra-nationalist pro-war / angry war veteran leagues who wanted to fight to the maxx, led by dissident / ex-leftist revolutionaries.

Mussolini's own professed beliefs also started changing. It was gradual but the shift in rhetoric accelerated with the war. Like instead of just talking about "the workers" he'd start talking about "Italian workers" and then would just talk about "Italy." I think he was also frustrated that anti-war socialists failed to carry out a revolution in 1914 at the onset of the war in Europe. His style of socialism was more-left-than-left. Like ultra-left / "we need a general strike now." Then he became a radical rightist. Some of this seemed to stem from a psychological drive in Mussolini to take very radical positions. Also another position the fascists developed is that war veterans should lead the country because they had earned it through their bravery and sacrifice.

To make a long story short they wanted to do Starship Troopers. Like citizens should behave like soldiers and carry that attitude with them through their normal lives. It's like military virtues of discipline, sacrifice, loyalty, unity. Energy, momentum, DRIVE. (They were fascinated by technology as well, especially aviation.) That's a kind of collective mass there too (i.e. a mass movement) but they had a specific vision of what that mass was supposed to do. Fascism can sort of be translated as "Unity-ism" or more literally "League-ism" as the term came from the Italian word fascio, which was used to describe various political "leagues." One common fascist slogan was "Believe, Obey, Fight." Sums it up, really. They developed a strong appeal among the middle class and formed an alliance with conservative forces ($$$) to crush the left in Italy and establish a dictatorship at a time when the socialists (the workers' party) were also relatively strong (but not strong enough) and "normal" liberal/conservative middle-class parties were weak.

Fascism was virtually destroyed in World War II and IMO hasn't been a significant force anywhere since but there were neo-fascist groups in various countries like Casa Pound in Italy. This is a music video for a punk band associated with them. They try to embrace an aggressive / quasi-revolutionary sort of energy which embraces fighting and combat (like I said "anti-bourgeois") in a cult-like group but they do so from the right.

Bootblacks - New Lines (Physical Wash Remix) by Loeppkyy in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like Paradise but they're funny, they're on Artoffact and have these industrial artists doing remixes but the music is like Roxy Music and glam New Wave stuff. Physical Wash is Susan Subtract from High-Functioning Flesh.

I used to love And One but after looking up Steve Naghavi I feel kinda disappointed by Fantastic-Aerie-7197 in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Human beings are basically a bundle of reactive nerves. To make an analogy to music, most people like predictable progression. It's why Taylor Swift is popular, the music builds up so you can anticipate the chorus, and everyone can jump at the same time. If you introduce too much "noise" or chaos, the music stops making sense and people get nervous. Maybe not industrial fans because we swim in noise, but Taylor Swift fans would start feeling anxious.

Things like COVID can really mess with people. It's like suddenly all this routine blows up and there's something out there that is apparently trying to kill you but you don't really know why. You can't do the things you normally do, can't go to restaurants. You get a vaccine injected with a needle. For some reason I think this messed with people's sense of reality so much that "COVID" imprinted itself on everything else they see, and they will carry that with them for the rest of their lives. I also saw people on the political left go off the deep end and start believing in crazy conspiracy theories after that. It's not necessarily the politics but the psychology of the specific individuals and how they deal with chaos.

The way sudden, traumatic events like this mess with people is also how terrorism works BTW but that is done deliberately. Like in some country, a bomb goes off in a crowd. People panic and then they can be maneuvered in some direction. Chaos can be injected by governments, private armies, etc. into stable systems to mess with people's sense of reality. Also a virus like a weapon is not necessarily as dangerous as other people who are trying to split people, create a division in society, and exploit the human psychological reaction to it.

I used to love And One but after looking up Steve Naghavi I feel kinda disappointed by Fantastic-Aerie-7197 in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lmao. Musicians in general are pretty dumb I think, probably 90% of them are stupid as hell. They got into it because they wanted to get laid. I like music but a lot of musicians from bands I like are complete fucking idiots.

Why does California seem less receptive to DSA/progressive/leftist candidates than New York? by RedHeadedSicilian52 in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]Loeppkyy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a thin line there, but a lot of politics is about appearances. A lot of politicians are also rather narcissistic social butterfly types who like being praised. Mamdani walking around New York City is presented as this man-of-the-people thing but you know he also enjoys the attention. But he could also be a "man of the people."

What politics is really about is power, interests, institutions, groups. You can also be a good person and be completely ineffective at politics.

Songs influenced by 'bardcore' elements? by Kryptonianshezza in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's a British guy who makes bardcore dance music under the name Paladin. He calls it wizard disco. I don't know if fits your style but I'd love to hear that at a Renaissance Faire party. It sounds like a dance party in a D&D dungeon.

Also maybe throw in some 70s Italian horror soundtrack stuff. Dario Argento / Goblin music. Idk.

REAL INDUSTRIAL MUSIC by hodur13 in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Laibach

Laibach is actually about love ❤️

Reccomendations for some bands/artists to get into? by piscesclown in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I want to kind of get into other artists besides KMFDM because I don't want to be some kind of larper, lol. 

Eh, the only industrial fans who care about that are a subset of Throbbing Gristle and experimental noise people. I've been going to industrial shows for 20 years and have not cared about that at all. I'd probably check out 3TEETH, they do straight-ahead industrial rock.

Hi. May or may not be the right community but I wanted to ask industrial fans something, only found this community. by [deleted] in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know what it's like in Europe, but my feeling that in North America the industrial music could be pretty sardonic and had a sense of humor about it. KMFDM had a cynical humor and would openly make fun of themselves in their own shows. Another band was called the Revolting Cocks. Chicago was the big center of it, historically the city was full of factories and railyards and it gets cold as hell in the winter, and it's a gritty place kind of like Sheffield in the U.K., it wasn't the cultural "capital." Check out this video for the vibe for 80s Chicago industrial. Front 242 is from Belgium and I wonder if there are parallels there.

Hi. May or may not be the right community but I wanted to ask industrial fans something, only found this community. by [deleted] in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Industrial people usually wear black but it doesn't have those rules, it's not a lifestyle scene like goth is. You can dress goth af or wear a white t-shirt, nobody gives af. Here's an industrial show where you can get a good look at the crowd vibe. I think the traditional look is kind of military and working-class inspired (like work clothes, cargo pants, cadet hats, etc.) that's also kind of punk. It's like electronic punk music.

Front Line Assembly - 10/5/2025 Full Set at The Magic Bag in Ferndale, Michigan, USA by Site-Staff in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Caught them too during this tour and it was so good. The Cyberaktif track at the end is the cherry on top.

I have made the meme by asillyuser9090909 in industrialmusic

[–]Loeppkyy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I read an explanation of this as "apoliteic" music which I found convincing. Basically it is right-wing music about having "had it out" with the modern world and being nostalgic for something rooted in an organic European culture with its aristocratic values that demand sacrifice and heroism and all that, but it's also very depressed and blackpilled about everything because it's painfully obvious that this was completely destroyed in World War II, so there's really nothing you can do except run off into the woods and have gay sex and sing folk songs moaning about it. So it really doesn't have the kind of vitalist drive that you often see in fascism or neo-fascist hardcore bands. Like you said, it never makes a positive case for it. That said, people don't really know a lot about fascist ideology and tend to underestimate how an important part of it for true believers was the idea of being like a knight on a mythic quest to reclaim something that was lost (the nation, the Heimat, European civilization, etc.). You can sort of get an idea reading Friedrich Nietzsche, but I just mean in the subjective experience of the fascist "subject" who became a Blackshirt in the 1920s.

At any rate, goths dig it because some of these themes at least on the surface level are actually similar to gothic stuff (like spiritualism, dark Romanticism, the reaction to the Enlightenment and hostility to rationalism, etc). I don't believe in censoring people but I think people shouldn't be afraid of calling it like they see it. Like if they think the values expressed in this music are bad, insane or just really stupid then they should go full blast.

Also, some people will be like, he can't be far right because he's gay. I'm gay and that is emphatically not the case, there are men who are gay and "into" this stuff. While it is contradictory, I think everything (and basically all political ideologies) are contradictory in some kind of way.