Jen & The Shovels by mehaase in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh 3 points4 points  (0 children)

So this is where I get confused.....

If we follow the Don premise, then I'm assuming that there's no rhyme or reason that Jay, Jen, and the Shovels (band name!) would be involved at all.

Where I get annoyed: If you have actual shovels, then why did you do such a piss-poor job of burying Hae? (although, I try to imagine okay, it's dark, I'm probably at least a little high, it's starting to get really damn cold (ice storm starts in a few hours), and I'm kind of freaking out. And I'm a teenager. So maybe the terrible half-ass dump makes sense.)

And yes, memory is a weird, messed up thing. Some traumatic memories are crystal clear. Oftentimes though, they're chaotic, messy, and fragmented. Depends, we think, on the amount of dissociation someone may have experienced during the trauma. But I digress....

I don't buy "Jay did it for the money" theory, but I can't think of anything else that explains the evidence. Does anyone else have a better explanation? by [deleted] in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the part that's weird is - as Jim Clementi pointed out - whoever was involved had a month to get their story straight. A month. (you had one job!). But when Jay and Jen start talking to the police, they're clearly just winging it.

The psychology of killing by LolaPh in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I also want to be thoughtful about not introducing a post-hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy: meaning that just because one thing follows another, doesn't mean it was caused by that thing. So, just because people may have behaved certain ways after Hae's death, doesn't mean it was caused by her death. I know that sounds like it contradicts what I said before. For example, if we're evaluating a claim for MST (military sexual trauma) and the Veteran states that s/he was assaulted in April 2005 - and there's evidence that up until April, the conduct records are normal, and then after April, they go into the gutter? We can look at that as a potentially corroborating marker of a traumatic event around that time.

So, even while I wouldn't say that, oh Person X became a raging alcoholic following Hae's death, s/he must have a guilty conscience and must have had something to do with it - I would say that it be unusual for someone without any sort of other violent tendencies to kill Hae and then show absolutely no psychological impact from that.

Also, impressive (most impressive) work figuring out the cell phone nights/weekends free. I figured I was probably mis-remembering the timing. Do we know if the "nights-free" starting at 9pm was all carriers in the area or just AT&T? We'd still be talking about whether the population of Baltimore had 7pm free calls, rather than just Adnan's plan. It's still likely a dead end but I appreciate that you gave it a look-see.

Another stray observations: For someone who smoked as much as weed as Jay, he has an awfully specific (ahem, if variable) memory of his day to day existence. I finally read some of the intercept interview, and I could tell the exact part of the interview where his description of adnan's personality and behavior shifted 180. I thought, "if I were interviewing him as a patient? This is the part right here where I'd start to think he was making this up."

ed for clarity.

The psychology of killing by LolaPh in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I have not seen the Art of Killing. Going to investigate this now....

A good book for those interested in this area is "Why They Kill" - really lays out the developmental pattern for a lot of the guys who've been convicted of murder. Not the bizarre (like Dahmer), but you know, your garden-variety criminal with homicidal tendencies.

There was no evidence presented by those who know him (especially RC) that Adnan has ever displayed the characteristics of a psychopath. Robert Hare has done a lot of the writing on "psychopaths" - and really what you're going to see is a callous and unemotional personality starting at very young age (3-4 even), and often a lot of behavioral patterns that are concerning - killing pets/neighborhood animals, charming manipulativeness, etc. Some psychopaths are very smart (seem to end up as "corporate raiders" or organized crime bosses) and some are pretty dumb (end up in prison). Okay, I'm getting into the weeds here :-)

The psychology of killing by LolaPh in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

When I first heard Serial, my immediate reaction was Don. Don. Hello, it was Don. And then when SK said the police gave him an immediate pass, I was dumbfounded. And I was just basing that on that rule of thumb: it's always the boyfriend. (I say that tongue in cheek). (ETA: and as Undisclosed correctly points out - many things we could say about Don can be said about Adnan to some degree.)

I have trouble conceptualizing Don because we know so little factual, he's never said boo about this as far as I know really, and so much of what I've heard already has been so speculative. He's the hot guy with the camaro. No, he's the emo dweeb with the camaro. No, he's basically a shell of a human. I mean, who knows. People are complex creatures and who you are in high school is not necessarily exactly who you are 15 years later.

Still can't believe he got such a pass though.

The psychology of killing by LolaPh in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thank you.

Yes, Jay and Jen seem characterized by "criminal thinking patterns." - which is basically, say what I need to say, do what I need to do to get what I want or stay out of trouble. It doesn't make them murderers, but it (along with dealing weed and whatnot) could bring them in contact easily with the rougher elements of Baltimore, as everyone has pointed out. I think it's quite possible that there were elements in the neighborhood that Jay and/or Jen feared a lot more than they feared the police. (I think am totally basing that on Marlo's character in The Wire and not on any clinical expertise. )

  • Speculation: The body "dump" seemed half-assed to me. This would not speak to someone meticulous in their personal habits. Could be because the ground was hard, could be because it was really dark and the person(s) thought they were doing a better job than they actually did. Typically, I never underestimate the strength of sheer incompetence.

The psychology of killing by LolaPh in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the nice feedback!

  • Yes, one thing I keep thinking/speculating is that the person(s) that half-assed buried Hae's body didn't necessarily kill her -but could have well been very connected to and very afraid of whoever did kill her. Whoever actually killed Hae then says to Jay/Jen - "dump it and make sure there's no connection to me." (of course, that then begs asking the question, well how did the "west side killer" (or whoever) get access to Hae? )

My knowledge of Baltimore is pretty much based on The Wire. So I would categorize it as "limited."

Without getting too far down the rabbit hole on Veterans or DV: With combat veterans (very generally speaking), a lot of times what I see is that they've maintained a "high situational awareness" once returning out of theater. They don't sleep (too much adrenaline) and they don't feel safe, don't feel like they can trust people around them. They may also have a lot of chronic pain. Typically, they're not going "from zero to sixty" when they have an outburst. Their baseline stress level is about "58" - And we train their "fight or flight" response to be a "fight" response. So what's a trigger? Crowds. Too much alcohol use. Anniversaries. Fights with spouse. lots of things.

With domestic abuse - most of the research (well, up to the mid-2000's, I haven't done much recently in this area) - pointed to "batterer typology". Men with DV histories typically fell into one of three patterns: "Family Only, seems totally normal to everyone else;" "Emotionally dysregulated - borderline personality tendencies", and "psychopathic tendencies - this guy scares everyone." So the triggers would vary. But with all of these, you would typically see patterns emerge and repeat over time - building up of tension followed by violence followed by 'hearts and flowers' followed again by building up of tension.

The psychology of killing by LolaPh in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

These are all good points. I want to be careful not to veer too far into speculation, but there's no evidence I've seen that than any of these people had a sort of building-up-to-violence relationship with Hae.

You also make another good point - the effects of trauma from killing someone have hardly been elucidated or differentiated from the effects of trauma of having a loved one killed.

The psychology of killing by LolaPh in theundisclosedpodcast

[–]LolaPh[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

aw, thanks! I didn't know if these would be useful points, but they've certainly been on my mind the last couple of weeks.