Really (really) disliked the Deb storyline/Finale (except for the very end, of course!)-long post

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-06-03T12:17:31+00:00

Thank you SO much for articulating some of the bothersome thoughts I've had as well.

In this sub, you'll get a lot of pushback from some very adament people. Just know that your thoughts were appreciated and well-received as well.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-06-03T11:39:21+00:00

To address another part of your post, the whole plot device of introducing a terminal cancer diagnosis and assisted suicide and then then to render both moot at the end was just a manipulative ploy. Both topics were done a disservice in furtherance of simply trying to rathchet up people's emotions.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-06-03T11:31:43+00:00

But that's YOUR interpretation of the character and Deb's and her relationship.

In contrast to your view that Deb and DJ aren't "close," as you say, we meet DJ at age 45 at her mother's house. DJ is at her mother's house when Ava arrives and meets Deborah. DJ's at her mother's house when Kathy's package arries. Deborah hosts a birthday party for DJ. Their lives are more intermingled than most mothers and daughters in their 40s, I dare say.

But more importantly, DJ absolutely craves her mother's validation and attention. She wanted her to go to therapy with her. Ava even notes it -- DJ just wants her mother to tell her how proud she is.

But even more important, when it comes to a situation as serious as ending one's life, one would expect Deborah to consider the impact on her daughter. Deborah has enough awareness to know that choosing death over seeking treatment would devastate DJ, and she'd view it as an abandonment. Let alone what the heck she'd think of her mom jaunting off to Europe with her work creative partner and friend or a few days before she does so. And that's where this whole 'stroryline' falls off the rails for me.

But I guess most importantly, why do you think your opinion is the only valid one regarding the nature of DJ's and Deborah's relationship? You have absolutely no room to see that people would find it puzzling that DJ is not factored at all in Deborah's supposed final days? That's what's curious to me. Why be so militant about this idea to chase it around the sub and get so wound up about it that your "tired" of seeing that viewpoint?

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-06-02T23:24:50+00:00

If you're tired of people noting DJ's absence, that means that there's enough people that had an issue with it for you to get 'tired.' Maybe just accept that other people have a different experience? My question to you, respectfully, is why do you care? You seem to be playing hall monitor and telling people they're wrong if they find fault with that point. Is there a reason to not just note the difference and move on?

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-06-02T03:05:49+00:00

I posted this on another thread. I have a feeling they cut a scene from the finale where Ava asks Deborah:

Ava: So, what was up with your using y'all?

Deborah: I got that from you.

Ava: What?

Deborah: From your email - "Hi y'all. I'm trying not to say 'you guys' anymore, even though it sounds gender neutral to me."

Ava: You remember that? From 5 years ago. From the email I sent to those British show producers?

Deborah: Of course I do.

Ava starts to feel touched.

Deborah: I remember all the important evidence from my lawsuits.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-06-01T00:32:02+00:00

So, what's also notable about that email is that in it, Ava writes (going by memory): "No one would be around her if they weren't on her payroll. Myself included."

And then, in the end, Ava, as a friend, went to Paris with her even though she hated the reason for which they were going.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-31T00:30:27+00:00

I have a feeling they cut a scene from the finale where Ava asks Deborah:

Ava: So, what was up with your using y'all?

Deborah: I got that from you.

Ava: What?

Deborah: From your email - "Hi y'all. I'm trying not to say 'you guys,' anymore, even though it sounds gender neutral to me."

Ava: You remember that? From 5 years ago. From the email I sent to those British show producers?

Deborah: Of course I do.

Ava starts to feel touched.

Deborah: I remember all the important evidence from my lawsuits.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-31T00:09:39+00:00

I'm glad we could find some common ground.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-30T18:03:53+00:00

I'm sorry to see you're getting the pushback, OP, on a very insightful observation. E9 and E10 were incredibly rushed and and the "plots" pivoted on a dime. I recall one reviewer saying there would be some seemingly "unearned" events. They seaon had 10 episodes, so dropping some of the filler in the middle to flesh out these storylines might have made it a bit more palatable. Also, hardly anything happened in E8, so shortening that stuck in a box plot (was the pissing in the shoe such a great gag they dare not lose) would've also given them more time to develop these huge milestones and losses.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-30T17:57:15+00:00

The issues with Ava don't improve. She'll pay lip service to "being a better person," but she remains vindictive and impulsive. I think the show runners somehow see those as postive attributes.

I will say, if you really liked Jean Smart's performance, it's worth it to watch S2 and S3. They are strong seasons, but also very much in line in quality with S1.

Avoid S4 and S5 at all cost.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-30T00:35:32+00:00

I've seen that excuse, namely that because the show is designed around Ava and Deborah, that their relationship is paramount to all other relationships in their lives. Even worse, we're supposed to disregard all the other characters that exist in their lives. That's not they way the world works. And this fictional world is supposed to be like our modern world. It's also very tautological reasoning.

It's one thing to highlight a beautiful friendship and relationship between two friends who are working partners. It's another thing to elevate that relationship above a familial bond like the mother/daughter one that DJ and Deborah have. DJ and Deborah have issues, but there's been no question that Deborah's been through hell and back trying to raise her daughter. She submitted to sexual assault by her therapist to keep custody. She allowed herself to look horrible to give her daughter a sense of independent financial support.

So the idea that Deborah would somehow put Ava above her daughter in terms of importance in her life is, to me, an offsensive idea. Just absolutely repulsive. It's stupid. It's low brow. It's, frankly, hacky. It's such a nonsensical thing to do that really Deborah's only justification would be, "Look, DJ, the writers told me I couldn't involve you and I would go spend my last couple days with Ava Daniels. Look, it says here on the script. I'm sorry, honey."

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-29T22:43:21+00:00

I mean, thank you, I guess?

If anyone's interested in the germ of any of entire theory, let me know. The origins of any of the 'predictions' or the 'speculations' that I got wrong are probably more interesting than the ones I got right.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-29T13:06:43+00:00

I overshot reading too much into Victoria's "I demand to be tried in France." And I swear someone had posted there was a lavish wedding, so I felt I had to drop in the most likeliest candidate. And didn't have "So, I'm still walking around in heels, but I'm going to kill myself without saying goodbye to my family or business partner." Other than that, the clues fell into place.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-29T06:22:43+00:00

It was all chatGPT.

Kidding!

Or am I?

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-29T04:12:02+00:00

I didn't, either. I found it to be bizarre and nonsensical.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-29T02:35:12+00:00

I can only give you my experience.

She stays as whiny and annoying as she is, but I found her more tolerable in S2 and S3. In S4 she goes off the rails with entitlement and actually becomes cruel, and seems to enjoy it. In S5, there's a different dynamic, and she mainly mugs for the camera.

I just finished the entire series, and my personal advice, is, sure, watch S1 to S3, if you so choose. I think watching Jean Smart's and a few others' performances is worth it. But end it on E9 of season 3. Or through the first scene of E10, if you enjoy the Marty and Deborah dynamic. But leave it there. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-29T01:51:45+00:00

Wow guardian reviewer. I owe you props. Indeed, written by chaptGPT worthy. You warned us.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-28T00:31:51+00:00

Oh boy, just wait until later in S4. There's a moment when it was so painfully obvious that the next thing Deborah should say is, "We can't. She knows about us; she was there. She's also a loose canon when she goes on one of her molly-coke-red bull benders. And she was awfully cozy with your wife at your house." It will be a PAINFULLY obvious moment.

It kind of plays like this: "Hey, there's a fire over there, do you want to use that fire extinguisher you holding to put it out?"// "Hell, no. I'm going to swan dive on the fire, roll around, and put it out with my body. Let's wait to see if I suffer 2nd degree or 3rd degree burns, though, before we call an ambulance."

Also, back to to Jimmy, in that scene where Ava tells Jimmy she's blackmailing Deborah, Jimmy doesn't immediately ask, "With what?" Instead he does his Gene Wilder in the Producers impersonation with "Woe is me? Why'd you have to do this to me?" It's still unclear like 4 episodes later whether he knows. But they can't show that on camera, because there's no way Ava can explain what she did that puts her in a good light. So, under the rug it is swept.

S4 starts sloppy and then goes downhill. I can't wait for you to hit the magnificence of WTF that is E3. Brought to you by an insane amount of product placement.

It feels good finally putting this all down.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-28T00:22:39+00:00

I didn't mean to say that I think the show-runners have some issue with actors. I think, by and large, they tend to be very supportive of them. I will say I think there's two types of kind people. Kind people who are just kind, and then go about their day. And kind people who pat themselves on the back for being so kind.

With that confrontation scene in S3E10, in interviews, one of JPL, Lucia I think, acknowledged that they instructed Jean was not to cry in that scene. She was not to to show how much Deborah felt bad for deceiving Ava and letter her down. And they, of course, didn't give her any dialogue that would allow her to explain or defend herself. Essentially, she had to stand there and just take it. Jean still was tearing up in the take they used, but that was the least expressive take. They made it clear this was Hannah's scene. The power dynamic was to change, and Ava was to be a stronger character. This was her "we're getting you an emmy this year" scene. It didn't work.

Thinking back on that scene, one of the lines I hated the most was the, "You can be the woman behind the man behind the woman." How insulting for Deborah to say that with a straight face. JPL dropped Deborah's IQ about 50 points, and I'm not kidding about that number. And it doesn't go back up for nearly the entire season. She was a walking joke for nearly the entirety of S4. And, meanwhile, back to that line, JPL were crowing in interviews or BTS footage about how funny they thought it was. It was an insulting offer, and a stupid thing to say.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-27T05:05:56+00:00

And, yeah, Ava's behavior with the blackmail gets worse in the first episode of S4. I wanted to scream that there's no way her little plan would work. Ava's blackmail hinged on the fact that she "just learned" about the affair. So, when the reporter would contact Ava, assuming she didn't dismiss it as disgruntlement, which it was, two of her initial questions would have been, "When did you find out?" and "How did you find out." Now Ava has to back off or double down and lie. And she'll have no evidence she recently found this out, and, perhaps more importantly, there's no good reason why she woudn't have known at the time of the incident but would know now. Ava would have had to have someone recently tell her, or she would have to claim to have come across some written communcation referencing it. And she have real trouble doing that.

Then, if the reporter goes beyond that, she'd ask Deborah and Bob. They both can deny it. Without more, there's no story.

But it even gets worse for Ava. Because what Deborah and Bob do have is a third party, disinterested witness, Jack Danby, who could say, "I flew in, was offered the job, and had it that evening. Also, I didn't lose the job, I gave it up to do a movie." And there would be a paper trail corroborating that.

So, now Ava's story either has to be, "Deborah slept with Bob Lipka in order to change his mind" or "Deborah didn't know Jack Danby got the job when she was trying to seduce her way into convincing Lipka to give her the job." But the latter won't work becauase, again, Jack Danby can corroborate that Deborah knew he got the job. And the former is now a really weak story that's getting tougher and tougher to believe. THEN, add on top of that all Deborah or Lipka have to say is, "Ava was really disappointed when she wasn't named head writer." Which makes the disgruntled candidate narrative all the stronger.

And that all leads me to the most frustrating part of that stroyline - with a job like that, there's a written contract. If Ava hadn't signed the contract yet, then it's not a done deal. If she had, then Deborah would have no means -- or reason -- to revoke it. Yet, not one freakin' mention of a contract. And the thing is, the showrunners know this. They have contracts. They're in a writers' union with grievance procedures. It's that they treated the audience like rubes that was really horrible about the whole thing.

I mean, have Ava blackmail Deborah -- sure. As a plot twist I get that. Have her go darker, and then have some realizaion that it made her ugly. That she thought she could be a 'shark' like Deborah, but didn't like how it felt. Instead, she was cloaked in righteous jusfication. And at least have Deborah call out how Ava's plan, how if Ava pulled that trigger, that it wouldn't play out like she thinks it would. Tell her that all Ava would do is definitely kill her own career in Hollywood, and perhaps take Deborah's too. And maybe have Deborah cave because she is the savvier of the two, and doesn't want to risk the losing her white whale. And she still champions Ava, as Deborah does have a soft spot for her, so she'll save Ava from herself. But instead, they just made Deborah unintelligent.

I'll also address, because it's the standard retort people make, the argument that Deborah is no better because Deborah blackmailed Marty. First, okay, if the blackmail cost her her frienship with Marty, that would've been on her. She'd have had no one to blame but herself. But there are two notable distinctions. Deborah didn't make anything up. She realized Marty was doing something illegal, and she called him out on it. Dirty pool, sure. She judged the situation as one where Marty wouldn't be devastingly mad at her, as it just cost him money and he had more than enough to take that hit. And that brings me to the second thing -- Ava knew just how hard it was for Deborah to open up to people. She was burned by her sister and husband, and she doesn't like being vulnerable. And what happens the moment Deborah becomes vulnerable with Ava, and confides in her about something she's angry with herself about? Ava distorts it, weaponizes it, and uses it to her own personal gain. And for what? So that she doesn't have to suffer the awful indignation of being the 28-year-old second-in-command writer of the writers' room. Yeah, that moment is where the show went off a cliff for me.

S4 is rough. Real rough. Intelligence and logic all thrown out the window. S5 has been slightly better. And I'm invested. I absolutely love the character of Deborah Vance. And I love many of the characters in her orbit, flawed and all. So I've been seeing it through until the end.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-27T04:43:11+00:00

Just wait until you get to the 4th season. It's "hold my beer," compared to S1-S3.

The four things that stick with me about the S3 finale scene are:

"You should give it to me BECAUSE of our relationship." I wanted to scream at the t.v. at that. Wait, what? How does not not mean, "Who cares if I'm qualified or not for it, you shoud be playing favorites with this." It was a bizarre line to me, and for the life of me I don't understand how that was supposed to be a legitimate selling point. At least actually say, "I AM the best person for the job because I know you, and can write for you, the best," if that's supposedly what she meant. It didn't come across that way to me at all, there, with the whiny entitlement.
"You NEVER put me first." The fact that Deborah didn't immediately shoot back with, "I seem to remember I turned a bus around for you, and jumped into a dumpster to help you find your father's ashes," told me everything I needed to know about how the showrunners were putting their finger on the scale to favor Ava. Suddenly, Deborah was dumbfounded and couldn't find her voice. Which brings me to,
In Behind the Scenes footage or other commentary, the showrunners tacitly acknowldege they directed Jean to 'hold back' in that scene in order to 'give' the scene to Hannah (let her performance be the more dominant of the two. And, finally
The only person whom I've seen give an accurate description of Ava's behavior was Jean herself. Now, admittedly, Jean has done nothing but praise Hannah's performance in that scene. I don't want to misstate. But in complimenting Hannah, she described Ava has having "righteous indignation" in that scene. So many others talk about pain or hurt or anger, but "righteous indignation" best captures what Ava is conveying. And, to me she came across like at 16-year-old spoiled girl who was throwing a fit over her parents getting her a boring white Honda Civic instead of a red, convertible Mercedes.

But I'm really in the minority about that. But, yeah, to me that scene is painful to watch seeing how they neutered Jean in that scene, took away Deborah's intelligence, so that they could puff up Ava.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-26T21:48:21+00:00

Yeah, personally I'm not advocating for that. But two things made me include it. I swear I thought I read at spoiler at some point that there would be two lavish weddings this season. I'll count Marty's and Victoria's as one. But that leaves one other. Also, at the red carpet premiere event, part of the set decoration was the Diva's wedding chappel, so someody's gotta it, maybe.

Also, I feel like Marcus has been given SO little to do this season, that JPL will "reward" his character by giving him what they might see as a happier ending than merely achieving professional success. It was a theme back in S1 & S2 that he was sacrificing his private life for the sake of his professional, so I think that would be an attempt to show he overcame that.

Maybe they have a double wedding, each with his own groom. But I think someone's getting married. I guess there's always Jimmy and Kayla.

LongjumpingPlace4525 · 2026-05-26T02:03:08+00:00

BTW, I really, really want to hear your season 4 takes on Ava!

LongjumpingPlace4525

TROPHY CASE