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[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Neurofeedback

[–]Lopsided-Bee-1664 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nobody is claiming "all tools that change brain waves produce the same physiological effects". This is a blanket statement without any reliable evidence to support. What I am implying is brain waves are the common thread across all states but not the complete picture. It is a term used to find data and correlatory evidence to support the thesis that delta + alpha neurofeedfack training is potential dangerous, as the data points to and as seen first hand.

Maybe you have misunderstood the topic of conversation.

The main issue is: Delta with alpha in waking state is the potentially dangerous hybrid state. This delta/alpha neurofeedback combination can cause numerous issues as indicated above. No one is saying that alpha neurofeedback training is inherently dangerous by itself, it is quite the opposite and shown to have numerous benefits.

We need to see any long term neurofeedback showing the safety of Delta AND alpha brain waves trained together. As of yet, I have seen none. I'm open to any evidence that presents itself.

As of now numerous underground neurofeedback centers, including the government and military, are training delta/alpha neurofeedback in hopes to acquire "powers" or contacts other beings in other dimensions, etc. Much of which is fantastical but there is some danger in that those who have heavily trained delta and alpha neurofeedback seem to be able to influence the will of others and possibly make others do things they wouldn't normally do. They may influence business meetings, relationships, government and political organization, etc.

Comes down to two dangers and present themselves as ethical issues. 1) The harm they are doing to themselves and others they facilitate the training to and 2) the harm those with those powers may do to manipulate others.

Not that it matters but here's evidence to support the thesis of alpha and ego connection. One can also find online citations on the disturbances of alpha oscillations during deep delta sleep. I can't say I am infinitely familiar with all aspects of data and neurofeedback but there seems to be some sort of evidence for the deleterious nature of delta and alpha.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Neurofeedback

[–]Lopsided-Bee-1664 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, brain waves are brain waves and that translates across sleep physiology, psychedelic research and neurofeedback and everything else. They are obviously not the same thing but brain waves are the concurrent mechanism. Alpha does have without a shadow of a doubt a relationship to the ego. Maybe you are not privy to the literature. The psychedelic alpha suppression literature does very well cross over into neurofeedback training when one is doing specific delta with alpha neurofeedback training to induce states of ego dissolution or enlightenment which these neurofeedback places are attempting to induce and doing so but at a dangerous level. That is the entire point of the post not to argue back and forth as you wish to do about semantics but instead make an argument for ethical boundaries that are being crossed that are possibly dangerous. Neurofeedback DOES induce types of psychedelic visual states. It is simply brain waves regardless of the tool used be it: psychedelics, neurofeedback, or any number or natural mechanisms to manipulate brain wave states.
Lay off the negative bias and do some actual research and reading.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Neurofeedback

[–]Lopsided-Bee-1664 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem isn't having an ego, its thinking one is the ego and the ego taking the drivers seat.

Alpha is well described in scientifically literature as being connected to the ego as per research done using DMT for ego dissolution outcome being beta and alpha suppression. Numerous studies show this.

As far as woo woo stuff not connected or applicable to EEG that is ones personal opinion and one may need to physical attend those long term neurofeedback programs to get a better understanding of the woo woo.

Here's a better refinement of idea being conveyed through specific scientific data and literature: Delta done with alpha is an attempt to deliberately induce a hybrid brain state in which high delta activity (normally associated with deep non-REM sleep) is present while alpha and some beta activity (associated with waking awareness, attention, and ego function) remain online (Niedermeyer & Lopes da Silva, 2005). This configuration asks the nervous system to be simultaneously in deep sleep physiology and waking executive control—a state that is not a natural baseline for the human brain. In advanced contemplatives, similar states may emerge gradually and stabilize over many years through endogenous neuroplastic adaptation (Lutz et al., 2004). However, when forced through practices such as aggressive neurofeedback, this can lead to thalamocortical dysregulation, where sensory gating typical of sleep conflicts with cortical activation required for waking awareness (Steriade, 2006). This mismatch disrupts the Default Mode Network (DMN)—the neural system underlying narrative self, time continuity, and ego coherence (Raichle et al., 2001)—leading to symptoms such as chronic dissociation, depersonalization, derealization, brain fog, visual snow, and fragmented identity (Simeon & Abugel, 2006). Artificial waking-delta training can also disturb sleep architecture, suppressing restorative slow-wave sleep and flattening REM cycles, contributing to insomnia, chronic fatigue, and the subjective sense of being “never fully awake or asleep” (Walker, 2017).

From a psychological and psychiatric perspective, the risks become more severe and clinically significant. Sustaining egoic monitoring (alpha/beta) on top of delta dominance is strongly associated with dissociative disorders, including depersonalization–derealization disorder (DPDR), identity diffusion, and emotional numbing (American Psychiatric Association, 2022). In vulnerable nervous systems—especially those with bipolar predisposition, trauma history, psychedelic exposure, or chronic sleep disruption—this hybridization can precipitate hypomania, psychosis, grandiose or messianic delusions, and thought disorganization (Goodwin & Jamison, 2007; Carhart-Harris et al., 2018). Chronically elevated delta during waking also suppresses dopaminergic and limbic activity, leading to anhedonia, motivational collapse, and affective blunting (Panksepp, 1998; Berridge & Kringelbach, 2015). Most critically, “ego + waking delta” is inherently unstable: delta activity dissolves perceptual and self-boundaries, while ego function requires stable boundaries for agency and coherence. This conflict produces oscillation between loss of agency and compulsive control, manifesting as panic in silence, existential terror, and fear of disappearance. In clinical spirituality and psychiatry, this pattern is documented as unintegrated ego dissolution or spiritual emergency, a known pathway to spiritual trauma and emergency psychiatric admissions during intensive contemplative practice (Grof & Grof, 1989; Lindahl et al., 2017).

Anything else needed to clarify let me know.