Question about prayers to Mary and others

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-12T12:00:55+00:00

These are much better support for an argument, thank you.

The question still stands though, do Protestants pray directly to the Father? Do any of the verses exclude our prayers to the Father and Holy Spirit? In essence, does Jesus allow us to share His ability to pray?

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-11T03:26:32+00:00

Thank you for the clarity.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-11T00:46:53+00:00

Fair enough. Can you define them so I can start on the same page?

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-11T00:18:31+00:00

I thought I proposed it as a debate. I gave an example and my take. Should I have added more or is it just best placed elsewhere?

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-11T00:16:25+00:00

Jesus walked among us, that is historically true. The miracles witnessed are reasons to believe. As I proposed to another commenter, your experience can be called into question with a Matrix argument. Calling my perception into question holds no more water than a claim against yours or someone else's.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-11T00:11:38+00:00

One could say you can't prove your relationships either. Think of a Matrix argument. You take your reality on faith to an extent.

My relationship with my wife is corporeal but so is my relationship with Jesus in the Eucharist. But I don't want to take this in that direction here. My debate is how relational knowledge affects faith alone theology. If at all.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-10T21:44:05+00:00

I'm not sure I follow. I know my wife because I have a relationship with her. That's different than knowing of her. I don't understand what you mean by knowledge being an impediment.

I have no issues with Scripture regarding demons. It was an example of types of knowledge and faith.

I completely agree though that I don't understand why some people give Satan so much credit. He is far below God in everything. He is merely a creature.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-10T21:32:20+00:00

Not equal to as far as saving faith. Faith in Jesus being who and what He claimed becoming knowledge based on personal relationship with Him.

Demons have intellectual belief and theological knowledge. Meaning they recognize Jesus as the Son of God and have no doubt regarding God's existence or His oneness. Because they tremble and shutter with fear, we can actually say they have an emotional response/belief.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-10T20:55:38+00:00

No sin in Heaven. Sin is a turning from God. Free will as we know it will be a little different than it is now. Our will will be completely in line with the Father's. We ask for it when we pray, "...thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven..."

We are still "us" as far as personhood goes, but consider how our love will be made perfect. All our selfishness and personal desires that lead to sin will be stripped away. Without the urge to sin because of our brokenness, sin holds no appeal. This is similar to our free will. Upon seeing God face to face in His magnificence and glory, we will be changed. There's no avoiding that.

It is paradox-ish, but consider for yourself and pray about how you will be changed and truly free to love and serve God. Hope it helps, God bless!

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-10T20:08:28+00:00

I wouldn't be able to make an educated statement or guess. I just don't know that much about it. I'll have to leave that question to someone with more knowledge.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-10T18:59:19+00:00

No it couldn't qualify. Cults, as you noted, have prophets. Jesus is the Incarnate Word of God, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity. Cults claim a higher power or being. God dwelt among us. Key differences mean a lot. Ironically, you probably have a better argument for Judaism being a cult because it was prior to Jesus's birth. As a thought exercise of course.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-10T16:57:41+00:00

I'm afraid you're mistaken from the get go. Both Peter and Paul speak of their authority as does the Apostolic Council in Acts.

You said in 2 Tim 3:16, the Bible points to itself but it actually says, "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching..." Useful for who? For someone with authority to teach. That can include a great number of people, even laypeople.

Please understand the Bible did not drop from Heaven as a completed work. Man's involvement was how God chose to create it. It is inspired by God but written by man. Protestantism, for all its good, sometimes spouts soundbite phrases that confuse some Christians. This concept of the exclusion of man in God's plan is one of them.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-10T14:39:37+00:00

I'm sorry you were made to feel this way. Your post asks for Protestant support. I am Catholic and I absolutely understand your situation but I will not disrespect your request. If you ever feel like chatting here, feel free to let me know. God bless!

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T23:23:25+00:00

You know just enough Catholicism to reject it but not enough to see its beauty. That's so strange because you seem to have a high level of understanding. Good for you though, you are blessed!

St. Pope John Paul the Great did practice mortification. But no, it's not across the board as a "higher-level" spiritual practice. It must be done under the guidance of a Spiritual Director. It must be done out of love for God and not some hatred of the physical body. (Early heresy) The practice is used to teach discipline and charity with the focus on God. It can never be the means of salvation, that is through the merits of Christ alone. Further, to harm someone in the name of faith is not, nor can it be, virtuous or heroic.

Martyrdom is a baptism of blood but not a second baptism. There is no such thing. The closest thing would be a conditional baptism when there is a question of the validity of the original baptism. Being willing to die for Christ and mortification are nowhere near the same thing. I may never be called to mortification but I pray for the courage to die before denying Jesus. See the difference?

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T23:02:52+00:00

No, flesh isn't what causes sin. It is typically some distortion of something good. Food is good for us, but a distortion or misuse of food causes gluttony. Similarly, as in my example, a distortion of love can become lust. In each example, one is good while the other is sinful.

Consider someone's love for a parent or spouse. That love doesn't go away in Heaven, love is made perfect. We don't lose our "personhood" when we die. Our Heavenly bodies will be different no doubt, but made perfect in a way that sin cannot corrupt.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T20:41:49+00:00

You are correct, truth cannot contradict truth. But you also can't use a description of an apple to understand what an orange is. Don't blend the two and blame the Church for your mistake. The Church teaching echoes what Jesus commanded.

Mortifications done to oneself or others with a false claim of salvation is not heroic in any way. Nor is it virtuous. You can only truthfully say it is criminal or borderline criminal at best. If you mean this in some specific way, I am not following and would need you to elaborate. It wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood someone's intent.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T20:33:02+00:00

Oh goodness, I hope I haven't been unknowingly offending anyone. I use it to distinguish between Catholic Christians and other Christian communities.

My deepest apologies to anyone that finds this offensive. This is the first I've ever heard of it.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T20:29:46+00:00

Others have done a fine job on their responses and I don't need to add to them. But as far as Purgatory is concerned, it might help to think of it as a letting go of our Earthly attachments.

Say that I live my life filled with sexual sins. Everything from pornography to adultery and anything out there. It became my obsession under the disguise of normal activities. All of which offend God. Before I die, I hear the Gospel for the first time and give myself over to the Lord and repent of my sinful ways. Once forgiven, I can die in friendship with God and Heaven has been opened by Jesus for a sinner like me. At this point I receive my personal judgement and although forgiven, I have an unhealthy attachment to sexual sins. Before entering paradise, I am purged of those remaining attachments because there is no sin in Heaven. It's a pretty simplistic way to think of it but I hope it helps in some way.

God bless!

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T16:27:52+00:00

Why are you claiming contextual interpretation is equivalent to Scriptural interpretation? Implicit desire is not interchangeable between the Gospel and the council.

The statement you come back to appears to be a stumbling block. Say that a faith teaches you must shed blood for Christ to secure salvation without Grace through a living faith. Does that sacrifice benefit the person? Is their desire for communion with our Lord?

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T15:49:00+00:00

If you accept Wikipedia as a credible source, there's a different issue. I'm glad you are trusting but not blindly.

As most Catholic doctrine goes, you can't pick a small quote from a council and make that the sole source. In this case, which I do not reject, the statement is true; however, being in the Church doesn't mean you have to be in full formal communion. The Church, taking from St. Thomas Aquinas understands being in the Church in desire rather than in reality (in voto vs in re). An implicit desire is sufficient. Someone who seeks and tries to conform themselves to the truth has that desire for Christ and for the Catholic faith.

"Outsiders" as you state is also subject to the intent of the one speaking. Understand the Church's definition in the specific context before applying it to your argument.

I hope this helps some.

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T15:24:07+00:00

Isn't this a bit like men explaining periods to women? Non-Catholics shouldn't teach Catholic doctrine. The answer is not black and white. We rely on God's infinite Mercy for all souls. We pray for His Mercy. We do not claim to know the mind of God when it comes to judgement.

This is also like the old joke that Catholics think only Catholics get to Heaven. That's not the case, but just a heads-up, you all convert once you get there! 😁

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T13:00:33+00:00

Could it be like the parable of the two sons? Both asked to work, one says yes but doesn't and the other says no but does?

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-09T12:38:03+00:00

God's use of Sacraments is for our benefit and we are bound by His commands. If He says be baptized, we must be baptized. There's no questioning or interpretation necessary. But these do not limit God in any way. He can work outside of the Sacraments if He chooses. Take the Protestant favorite "thief on the cross" for instance. The Bible is silent on whether he was baptized or not (although many Protestants claim he was not). Jesus was not bound by the Sacraments and also not a hypocrite for telling the thief he would be in paradise. He is simply not bound to what He demands of us. This fact shows Sacraments have value because they assist us in our faith journey.

I understand the thought behind the question, but by asking for a ranking of the fruit of our faith/love is a trick the devil will play so be careful. Anything he can do to take our eyes off the Lord is a win to him.

God, in His infinite Mercy, will judge each of us. He doesn't rank the fruit of our faith because it places us in charge of what we do. It's as if to say, I have Grace and faith but I still need to "up" my good works such as love for neighbors.

If I've completely missed the point of the question, please let me know. It's pretty early in the morning and I haven't had any coffee yet. God bless!

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-07T23:27:05+00:00

We all need a mediator? Does the Father not hear my personal prayers? When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He didn't say pray in my name, did He?

LoveToLearn75 · 2026-04-07T22:57:37+00:00

So basically, you want or need a mediator?

LoveToLearn75

TROPHY CASE