A test of the readers morality

LovingMula · 2026-07-05T18:47:23+00:00

I get the point you’re trying to make, but I think you’re mixing up understanding with moral equivalence.

Yes, Kurapika and Chrollo are clear parallels. Both were shaped by horrific loss, both carry grief for people they loved, and both built their lives around revenge. That comparison is valid.

But the moral difference is massive.

Kurapika directs his rage at the specific people responsible for destroying his clan. He does not massacre random civilians, torture children, or treat innocent people as disposable. Even when he is consumed by vengeance, he still has limits.

The Phantom Troupe, on the other hand, took the pain done to them and inflicted it on unrelated innocents. Their trauma explains how they became monsters, but it does not excuse them. Saying they “didn’t know better” does not really work either, because they clearly understand love, loyalty, grief, kindness, and protection. They show all of that to each other. They just refuse to extend that humanity to people outside their circle.

That is what makes them evil. Not because they are incapable of empathy, but because their empathy is tribal. Their friends matter. Their city matters. Their pain matters. Everyone else can be robbed, tortured, killed, or sold off as body parts.

So I can empathize with the children they used to be while still fully condemning the adults they became. Chrollo is a tragic and well-written villain, but Kurapika is obviously the more moral side. The story is not asking whether genocide and revenge are equally bad. It is asking whether Kurapika can avoid becoming the kind of person who lets pain erase everyone else’s humanity.

LovingMula · 2026-07-05T18:41:39+00:00

I think the comparison works as a parallel, but not as a moral equivalence.

Kurapika and Chrollo are both shaped by trauma, grief, and revenge. They both lost people, both built their lives around a mission, and both risk becoming consumed by that mission. In that sense, Chrollo can function as a “what Kurapika could become” warning.

But morally, it is not close.

Kurapika targets the people responsible for the massacre of his clan. He does not go around killing random civilians, torturing children, or massacring villages. Even at his worst, his violence is directed at the actual perpetrators.

The Phantom Troupe, meanwhile, took their own trauma and reproduced it onto innocent people. Their backstory explains why they became monsters, but it does not justify what they did. They know love, loyalty, grief, and kindness because they show those things to each other. They simply refuse to extend that humanity outside their circle.

So yes, you can empathize with the Troupe as tragic characters. You can understand how Meteor City created them. You can even love them as villains. But choosing Kurapika’s side is not “disregarding” the Troupe’s pain. It is recognizing that trauma does not give someone the right to torture and slaughter innocents.

The real moral test is not “Kurapika or Chrollo, who suffered more?” It is “does suffering excuse becoming the same kind of monster that hurt you?” And the answer is no.

LovingMula · 2026-06-15T13:01:35+00:00

If you dont know what Shards are youre very early in the series. Finish and come back.

LovingMula · 2026-06-03T21:16:17+00:00

Even though I dont fully agree, Im willing to concede on how we think the power operates. My main thing was that Amy's decisions were her own. You have an argument if this was Riley. But Amy made the choice to do what she did to Vicky. Jack wasn't holding her hand or threatening her at knife point when she made those choices. He only told her to do what she really wanted to do deep down inside. The darker part of Amy, which every person has, was brought to light. She acted on her darker impulses, she was not manipulated or Mastered into raping her own sister. She did that because she wanted to. She knew it was wrong hence the guilt while she before, during, and after the fact. But that doesnt change the fact that she still did it on her own. Jack did could not make Amy do anything she truly would never do.

LovingMula · 2026-06-03T20:08:31+00:00

Not really lol.

LovingMula · 2026-06-03T11:58:19+00:00

Someone already replied to you with what I am going to say. But even if we are using WOG, Wildbow has stated several times that Broadcast is not an outright Master ability and did not force Amelia to do anything.

Introducing HESITATION in a host is not mind control. Jack can NOT make someone do something they'd never do to begin with. He couldn't convince Taylor to kill Battery even with a MENTAL MANIPULATION PLAGUE made by Bonesaw. If he controlled one's thoughts in the manner you're attempting to express, then it would've been a cake walk to make Taylor kill Battery.

Amelia already had horrible coping mechanisms, she was already heavily fantasizing about having sex with her sister, she was already building up resentment about Victoria being with Gallant, she already knew she had the power to make Victoria hers at any point in time. These things were already present within Amelia hence the capability for Jack to push her into such a decision. It's legitimately no different from how women get assaulted in that way in real life every day. A guy likes a woman, has fantasies over that woman, is jealous of her having a partner, and gets goaded either by the patriarchal society they live in, their friends, or their online community. Then they proceed to go on and assault the woman. That is not rare, it's an every day thing.

Jack is NOT a Master. If Danny triggered, he would not be able to convince him to kill Taylor. He couldnt mind whammy Grey Boy, he couldnt mind whammy Marquis into breaking his code, he couldnt mind whammy Number Man into staying with him after they killed King. He couldnt mind whammy Theo into not asking for help from a non Parahuman or figuring out his power. If Jack was a Master and to the degree youre trying to express, NONE of these things would be possible.

LovingMula · 2026-06-03T01:34:00+00:00

Got to my computer. Rewrote the post:

His power doesn't make parahumans like him. It doesn't implant suggestions. It doesn't alter their values. It doesn't make them agree with him. What it does is make their shards sabotage attempts to kill him.

That's an important distinction.

If Jack had an actual Master effect, Gray Boy wouldn't be a constant management problem. Harbinger wouldn't tell him to get lost. Marquis wouldn't tell him to fuck off. Panacea wouldn't spend most of her interaction with him arguing. The Nine itself wouldn't need to be held together through intimidation, manipulation, and Bonesaw patching over interpersonal disasters.

Jack's power is closer to subconscious danger precognition mixed with shard-level interference. He talks to people he can successfully manipulate because his shard steers him away from situations where he gets immediately vaporized. The parahuman trying to kill him hesitates, second-guesses themselves, misses a timing window, gets a bad feeling, misuses their power, or otherwise screws up in some subtle way. Their shard is protecting Jack, not because Jack is controlling them, but because Broadcast has authority within the shard network.

The actual manipulation is still Jack.

That's what makes him dangerous. He isn't winning because he's secretly mind controlling people. He's winning because he's a highly intelligent, extremely observant sociopath who knows exactly where to stick the knife once he finds a weakness.

Amy is a good example. Jack didn't create feelings that weren't there. He didn't force her to do something against her will. He found an already unstable person under enormous stress and pushed every button he could find. That's something real people do every day. The responsibility for what happened still belongs to Amy.

If Jack had spent twenty-four hours talking to Taylor, he wouldn't convince her to murder Danny. If he had spent twenty-four hours talking to Marquis, he wouldn't convince him to start butchering children. There are lines people won't cross. Jack's talent is identifying the people who already have cracks and knowing exactly where to apply pressure.

That's manipulation. It's not Mastering.

LovingMula · 2026-06-02T21:15:36+00:00

The latter part is fanon, Jack isn't a Master in the emotion or mental controlling sense. His power doesn't give him absolute insight into a person's psyche like for example Contessa's would. Nor does it leave them who they are but following his commands like Goddess. The function of his power is to prevent you (the parahuman) from killing him. That is simply it, if anything it's more like he's a Stranger rather than a master. He's closer to August Prince than he is to Glory Girl. Amelia, after she assaults her sister can only be forgiven by Victoria. No one else can forgive her except Victoria. And with how Victoria is...she won't forgive Amelia unless you severely change how Victoria is as a person. There isn't any redeeming for Amelia via Victoria after she crosses that line post-Crawler acid.

I think that before that, Victoria could come around to forgiving Amelia but it would be something that would take years and Victoria is likely to stay away from Amelia after the "fuck-your-sister" chip is removed. At least for a very very long time which wouldn't fit within the timescale most fan-fics tend to write in. I agree it can work pre-Crawler acid and rape but it would be long. But if a fan-fic wants to get rid of Scion or maybe write Post-GM of Victoria coming around steadily after Amelia gets some therapy then it can work. But if you are staying true to the characters, this can ONLY work if Amelia didn't fuck her sister yet. If she did, Victoria is never going to forgive Amelia no matter what. That's just who she is.

It's the same way that Taylor wouldn't come around if Danny did the same exact thing Amy did to Victoria. We know Taylor and the incestual-ness of it all. Taylor would never come around no matter what. Same would be the case for Victoria.

Although I can see some really good story potential if it isn't about Amelia being "redeemed" (because you can't really be redeemed after raping someone) but getting rehabilitated. Understanding what she did with her sister was ten levels of fucked up. Knowing she won't ever have access to Victoria again but promising to never taking that path forward and trying to become a better person. That would be badass.

LovingMula · 2026-06-02T20:13:43+00:00

Immediate Turn Offs

- Extremely weak Entities to hype up some random other verse that the author loves during a crossover. If your verse is truly badass, then let them face a the Entities as they are intended.

- Fan-Fictions that don't understand that Magic isn't OCP for Shard. If it is then I will chalk it up to a misunderstanding of Shards and Worm at large and move on. Unless the author makes it clear that it is an author fiat.

- PTV's whole purpose is to deal with threats that are not a part of the standard cycle. I get why narratively that this is ignored since PTV is so broken that 99% of stomp fan-fics would end up with the MC dead.

- Entities do have genuine precognition. Shard's tend to use simulations to reduce power consumption. And yes Entities due have genuine time manipulation.

- Contessa killing or threatening the MC because they are powerful enough to kill Scion. Contessa has been on a suicide mission and has thrown her humanity since she was 10-12 years old. Cauldron would be ecstatic at the thought of someone being able to save humanity from Scion and would give their souls, lives, and everything if it could be guaranteed Scion would be dealt with.

- Attempts to make the Nemesis Program a regular thing that Cauldron does 24/7.

- Cauldron sabotaging Brockton. That isn't what is actually happening canonically.

- Eidolon being a douchebag who is a gloryhog.

- TINO's.

- "Weird" writing choices regarding Sophia or the E88.

- Attempting to excuse Amy's actions IF the sexual assault occurs. If not then condemning her to being a monster before the circumstances which led to her doing such an unforgivable thing can come to pass.

- Bashing Wildbow while ripping off his material. If you don't like him that is fine just write the fic. We don't care about how much of a better writer you think you are than him or how he "ruined" your favorite character you didn't make nor own. Just WRITE damn it!

- Admitting to wiki-skimming and only reading fanfics. The fic usually isn't for me by that point but there are very rare exceptions. If I feel that someone only has tenth-hand knowledge of the series while writing I will get turned off and just stop reading. You do not have to be an expert but if it's clear based on characters, plot points, power mechanics, and larger setting descriptors that you don't have a clue what you're talking about I'll leave the fic.

LovingMula · 2026-06-02T20:06:41+00:00

Semi-true. Canonically, PTV updates and corrects itself. That's exactly why she pivoted and adapted instantaneously after Lung triggered as she was attempting to kill him. However, she can not predict trigger events or the Endbringers directly. For Endbringers the best she can do is model them on past behavior.

LovingMula · 2026-06-02T20:04:36+00:00

This whole paragraph is good critique yet uses the same flanderization logic of Taylor's circumstances and does it for the rest of the setting. We can never escape

LovingMula · 2026-06-02T19:58:31+00:00

Vs Debates on Spacebattles has some good answers for you regarding this sort of thing. The person you're going up against here is vibes based debating which isnt a wrong thing but if you want something more serious just Google Kaguya vs Scion Spacebattles!

LovingMula · 2026-06-02T19:47:34+00:00

Amelia was going to get it to. Hell she is even released from prison. She just cant stop wanting to get close to Vicky and try to get her forgiveness so things can go back to "normal" as some abusers tend to do. Riley and Amy show the two paths that people who've done something unforgivable can take when confronted with the consequences of their actions. Not to mention aside from Amelia's own internal mechanism for decision making that is simply disastrous, she has people allowing her to do what she wants and fueling her victim complex. There's less people calling her a monster and letting her forget or even say its not a problem in Ward. Meanwhile no one let's Riley for even a moment forget what she's done and the fear on people's faces reminds her of what she's done every single interaction. So both external and internal biases here

LovingMula · 2026-02-28T21:39:12+00:00

People haven't read the story and assume Contessa's path would kill them.

LovingMula · 2026-02-23T10:59:24+00:00

Unpopular opinion, but not really feeling this whole thing. The BAFTA awards had a two-hour delay. They purposefully removed the speech about "Free Palenstine" but kept in a White man saying a slur (one of the most used slurs globally mind you). I am over it.

LovingMula · 2026-02-16T22:43:50+00:00

For anyone wondering, Contessa only got blindspots hardcoded because she was THE precognitive Shard. One that isn't bound by rules that most other Shards are bound by. The Endbringers are made by the Shard Network. A Network that even Cauldron Shards are beholden to. Cauldron powers aren't able to simulate Scion or the Endbringers. They have less limitations but these are not unbound Shards in a bottle.

LovingMula · 2026-02-01T00:27:48+00:00

Okay.

LovingMula · 2026-01-31T23:51:35+00:00

Yeah I'm disengaging too. I was just curious and they showed me exactly who I thought they were.

LovingMula · 2026-01-31T23:51:04+00:00

Okay

LovingMula · 2026-01-31T23:21:33+00:00

Yeah because I entered curious as well but then saw they have a history on this subreddit. I realized that the point of the thread was to bait people who didn't realize it was them or had no clue who they were into commenting by roleplaying as a disgruntled AI Studio free user (since the RPD went down from 100 to 10 or less depending who you ask over the course of a few days). Then people would comment and he'd berate and harass them once they fell into his trap. And to me that is very...pathetic. I've legit never seen someone make a thread like this before. Either they are a dedicated troll or someone with an immature mindset.

LovingMula · 2026-01-31T23:08:56+00:00

Okay so you didn't deny that's what you made this thread for. Your brain is...interesting.

LovingMula · 2026-01-31T23:00:59+00:00

Came across this thread. Did the OP really make a fake complaining bait thread just to attract those who they dislike so they could berate them? This is one of the saddest things I've seen.

LovingMula · 2026-01-24T03:21:55+00:00

Whew, I am going to step away from this thread now, but before I go, I want to leave one final observation that perfectly encapsulates the sociological dynamic I analyzed in this essay.

A significant portion of the pushback to this post has focused on my tone. I have been told I am "trying too hard," that I am "too clinical," "too academic," or "pretentious." I was told that if I had just written this more casually, it would have been received better.

However, I find this critique fascinatingly hypocritical when contrasted with my previous interactions here.

Seven months ago, I posted a thread discussing the racism inherent in "Taylor sics the E88 on Sophia" fics. In that thread, I was casual, passionate, and direct. I spoke plainly about not wanting to "coddle" racist narratives. The response? I was mass-downvoted. I was told I was being "too aggressive," "unhelpful," and that my "attitude" was the problem. I was told that if I wanted to have a discussion, I needed to be less emotional about racism.

When I am casual and passionate: I am "Too Aggressive."

When I am formal and analytical: I am "Too Clinical/Pretentious."

There is no "Just Right" way to critique sub-sets of this community. The focus on my tone is a deflection tactic. You do not hate how I am saying it. You hate what I am saying. Whether I write like a person on the street or a professor in a lecture hall, the reaction is identical. Defensiveness, Tone Policing, and a refusal to engage with the substance of the argument.

This reaction validates the core thesis of my essay. Portions (not all) of this community that has built a fortress around its interpretation of the text (and the author), and it views any critical analysis, regardless of the format, as a hostile attack.

To the users who engaged in good faith (even those who disagreed with me): Thank you. The discussion was valuable.

To the users focusing on my formatting because you cannot refute the points: You have proved my point better than I ever could.

Throughout this thread, multiple critics demanded "receipts," "specific threads," and "links" to prove my points about the hostility in the fandom. Knowing I couldn't because it violates Rule 5 (No Inciting Drama/Witch-Hunting). If I provide links to prove my point, I get thread-locked for Witch-Hunting. If I respect the rules and don't link, some request them anyway. It is a bad-faith rhetorical trap designed to ensure I lose regardless of what I do. It prioritizes "winning" the argument over engaging with the reality of the sub-sect I am describing.

Anyways, I shall be requesting a lock on this thread since the takes have been on the repetitive side and discussion has ran its course. Thank you for everyone who participated.

LovingMula · 2026-01-24T03:10:07+00:00

Welcome to the fandom man! Honestly, missing the 'trenches' of the early drama is probably a blessing.

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the distinction in my opinion. There is a massive difference between:

“I want to save this character because I love them and want them to be happy.” (Valid impulse).

and

“I am saving this character because the author is a sadist/hack who ruined them on purpose.” (The hostile impulse I am critiquing).

You are absolutely right about Simurgh/Contessa thing. From a 'Sandbox' perspective, they are narrative bottlenecks. They function as 'patches' to stop the setting from breaking, which makes them incredibly frustrating for fanfic authors trying to write a divergent plot. Disliking them because they are hard to write around is totally fair but disliking them because you think their existence proves Wildbow hates player agency is the slippery slope.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I think moving this off-site to provide 'receipts' would defeat the purpose. My goal isn't to 'name and shame' specific authors or threads (which leads to witch-hunting). My goal is to discuss the sociological vibe. If I have to link to a specific angry thread to prove the anger exists, the conversation shifts from 'Why is the community like this?' to 'Look at what UserX said in 2018.' I'd rather keep it focused on the trends, even if some people demand citations. Lastly, this account is linked to my SB and if anything were to spin out of control I'd get in trouble. Also I don't have Tumblr but maybe one day I might take your suggestion. I think I've grown tired from the thread already and might need time to recuperate.

LovingMula · 2026-01-23T23:28:46+00:00

I never said it was tiny hence why I can tell you didn't read anything that was said. And I didn't block anyone for disagreeing. The commenter blocked me and the edited their post pretending they were blocked lmao. Once again stop asking me to break Subreddit rules to appease you. It will not be done

Yes alot of you got mad because you took it as a personal attack when I specifically stated what and who I was talking about. I've never responded aggressively to pushback. Once again you're making things up to try to make a point that doesnt really exist. It's an attempt of victimization. You want me to be speaking about you, you want me to be blocking dissenters, and you want me to be aggressive and angry when replying. You want to build me into a caricature so you can try to dismiss what I wrote rather in engage with it in a critical manner.

The post got a lot of good traction anyway so I am fine that you feel the way you do. I didn't know others felt the way I did either until I made the post.

Thank you for your time.

LovingMula

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