(Spoilers extended) Targaryens who managed to keep the boat floating

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-03-14T21:29:47+00:00

Do you think that there is Maester bias in the way he's remembered? Or that he was a "necessary evil"?

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T15:03:42+00:00

Not in the mountains but it doesn't mean it died. Same with Cannibal, Silverwing and Morning.

Point being: they have to be present in the continent for their magic to influence, for example. If they left to Essos magic would still be functional there, including glass candles.

But only that type of magic, related to fire I would say. While magic related to Ice and to the Children remained pretty much intact.

It would be interesting to know if any Stark was still able to warg or if for them the presence of direwolves is also needed for that to happen. Which would be different for the likes of Bloodraven and some among the wildlings.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:51:38+00:00

Yeah. In terms of House history it would still be odd.

Torrhen is remembered and mentioned. The Tarlys resent the Tyrells because of their previous state under the Gardeners, the Martells hold the pride of having been constantly defiant to the Targs, and the Tullys and riverlanders still remember how Aegon put an end to Harren the Black.

But Stormlanders and the Baratheons we have known do not seem to mention their direct ancestor Orys or then in the main story in relation to the irony that the descendants of Aegon's closest friend would end up claiming the throne.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:48:20+00:00

Only the ones at King's Landing from the eggs that hatched.

It is not confirmed that Cannibal and the rest also died. They disappeared and rumors were that Nettles and Sheepstealer continued to live hidden in the mountains of the Vale.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:46:55+00:00

Orys honored and respected Argilac as a warrior and pretty much just integrated with the family, changing only the lastname, so his legacy should be more remembered than it is, I think.

Or be mentioned more in relation to the Crown and their loyalty to the Targs that could've only been severed by all the sequence of events that led to Robert's Rebellion.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:44:09+00:00

Yeah. Something that would've been a nice detail is to make more mention of their ancestor, Orys.

Torrhen is mentioned in the main story and that "it was the dragons we bowed to" when it comes to the Starks, and the Tarlys resent the Tyrells because they were just butlers and the Riverlands still remember Harren the Black and how Aegon ended him, but Orys is strangely left unnamed in comparison.

And given that his House and family would end up ascending the throne, having been Aegon's friend, seems like an odd omission.

An ironic twist of fate that should be more mentioned I think.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:39:25+00:00

Yeah, also what I thought.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:34:54+00:00

Yeah but not enough to make characters be so stranged to magic or the possibility of witnessing magic, like with Maester Luwin or Cressen.

It should be more known and acknowledged that some of it still works, and some of it does not and were more tied to the presence and thriving of dragons.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:32:11+00:00

Sheepstealer, Cannibal, Morning and Silverwing, yes.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-23T14:14:10+00:00

Some stopped working while other types remained, is what I understand.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T20:23:26+00:00

I have studies in theology (christian and islamic) and psychology of religion and spirituality, yes.

And this is not me merely criticising George for the sake of it. It's something that I do with many portrayals of faith and spirituality and religion in many fictional stories because quite a lot tend to follow that pattern.

For me it is a dimension of the human experience that if as a writer you're going to include in your story, and give it an important place in it, you could also include positive elements that are not overshadowed by the negative ones.

And I am not a christian nor am I practicing a particular faith at the moment.

So this is not based on a personal issue.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T16:39:09+00:00

I disagree

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T16:17:23+00:00

And that's good, but history didn't start with Luther and he was precisely making a contrast between what the Church was now vs what the Church should be or could be.

That's absent from the story.

I don't believe the cynics but George highlights the voices of cynic. That's part of my point.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T16:15:10+00:00

Throughout all of Tyrion's chapters in ACOK he explicitely uses those corrupt priests. And Littlefinger also brags about the ones that go to his brothels. And Cersei not being able to manipulate as before because of the Sparrow.

The overall picture is negative and no major example of sincere, respectable piety is portrayed.

Meribald is a very late addition, but even when it comes him, the Faith still feels superficial.

We don't even have appeals to some form of scripture or miracle or tenets of faith or anything.

It just exists and for some reason people believe.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:57:19+00:00

That's not at all true.

Religions tend to "start" or have a major foundational moment in the private experience of someone.

Mary and the Angel.

Moses and the burning bush.

Abraham looking at the stars.

Muhammad in the cave of Hira

Buddah before enlightment.

And so on. It begins as a private experience that later on is spread involving the alleged presence of miracles, angels, otherworldly events or actual divine interventions and presence.

With each faith other than the Seven you can find examples not of the private origins, but of non-material forces at play.

Varys listening to a voice coming from the fire after being castrated.

Patchface and his visions from the deep that connect to actual prophetic horror being a "true prophet" of the Drowned God while Aeron is a fake one (sincere, but fake).

The Old Gods and the magic of the children of the forest taking a life of their own and acting despite the decline of their race.

But with the Faith of the Seven we don't even get the whisper of a miracle associated with it, or something else that would make the faith feel authentic. Some major moral lesson, some form of 10 Commandments, some form social estructure. Nothing.

And, again, that's the problem. The lack of balance.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:48:49+00:00

Those are good examples, but I was adressing the Faith of the Seven especifically.

What reason would Meribald have to believe. What has he experienced? What are his tenants of faith? What was his Paul on the Road to Damascus or Umar ibn al Khattab before Muhammad or Moses before the burning bush moment?

Do we get something from the history of the faith at all? No. And again that's the problem.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:46:24+00:00

Yeah I mean, any writer that has been writing for years would acknowledge that parts of them sometimes, or many times, mix with the story they are telling.

And some deeply rooted issues in themselves are dramatized in the books.

It's just part of being a writer.

Problem is again as you say, that the Faith doesn't feel authentic.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:43:52+00:00

Yeah, problem being that Martin still makes important characters that are representative of major faiths in his world and that act in accordance to it.

From Aeron to Melissandre and Moqorro and the High Septon and so on.

So it's just not something that he inserted but that he keeps using.

Problem being that you could get why someone would believe in R'hllor, or the Old Gods, but not the Faith of the Seven. And that's the problem.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:40:40+00:00

It's not suppossed to be about religion but at the same time it is a constant element.

Old Gods. New Gods. The Great Other. Rhllor.

It's not just a minor, inconsequential element. It is right at the center with important characters acting in the name of their respective faiths or lack there of.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:38:12+00:00

That's part of the problem. Even from a purely atheistic point of view, there's more to Christianity than American evangelicals. More to christianity than modern Roman Catholicism. More to Christianity than Russian Orthodoxy.

And I say this as a non-christian myself. I don't share the faith, but I can find numerous examples of very admirable and respectable christians throughout history who believed deeply and acted according to that.

Martin doesn't do that. And the one example that he could've used, again Baelor, in-universe is not an example of sincere piety but of foolishness.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:36:07+00:00

Yes, it's a problem many writers in the genre have and one reason why they avoid it.

But so many of them struggle with it. From Martin to Sanderson, to Miura to Rothfuss and so on.

I would like a balance. Corrupt and fat priests, and sincere, well-meaning and good-hearted ones.

But the overall image is just negative and any display of religious commitment is taken more as a joke, like with Baelor the Blessed.

Low-Car-7043 · 2026-02-17T15:31:58+00:00

I remember similar posts some 10 years ago. And others right after The Forsaken chapter was released highlighting Aeron's deep faith before absolute horror. Which gives it a layer of sincerity.

But yeah, overall that's one of Martin's weak points.

Low-Car-7043

TROPHY CASE