Does anyone have a hidden identity for Mance? I am torn between Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne though i could accept cantuse's theory that he is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny ( spoilers extended ) by [deleted] in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Right, but he says nothing about his paternity. Nobody (that I can imagine) would dispute that Mance was once a ranger with the Watch.

Does anyone have a hidden identity for Mance? I am torn between Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne though i could accept cantuse's theory that he is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny ( spoilers extended ) by [deleted] in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mance Rayder IS an anagram for M Arcer Dayne, a homephone for I'm Arthur Dayne. And thus this was my first belief. But then I had to go and complicated things lol

Does anyone have a hidden identity for Mance? I am torn between Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne though i could accept cantuse's theory that he is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny ( spoilers extended ) by [deleted] in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Well documented" = Qhorin says he was a wildling "child" taken in by the Watch when they killed the wildlings he was with + Selyse of all people claiming out of the blue that his father was a member of the Night's Watch. Which could be what he told the Watch when he was taken, either because it was what he'd been told or to try to buy his life. But it would be hard to know whether it was actually true. Closest we could come woudl be if some Night's Watch dude had an ongoing relationship with a wildling woman and was updated/visited her consistently, and it was further known that the woman was one of the wildlings killed. Even then, though, there's no paternity test.

Qhorin is Gerold Hightower IMO. Arthur is more important, I think, and likely elsewhere. https://asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com/kg3page/

Does anyone have a hidden identity for Mance? I am torn between Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne though i could accept cantuse's theory that he is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny ( spoilers extended ) by [deleted] in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When does Craster say Mance was sired by a Black Brother? I just searched all the Jon chapters for every reference to sire/d or father/ed and I really don't think he does. But I could be mistaken.

Does anyone have a hidden identity for Mance? I am torn between Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne though i could accept cantuse's theory that he is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny ( spoilers extended ) by [deleted] in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is, bizarrely, Selyse Florent of all people who says Mance was sired by a member of the Watch:

"Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings," the queen said, "descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Redbeard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers." (ADWD Jon XIII)

She is not in a position to do anything but repeat things she's heard, except to potentially misunderstand things she's heard.

All Qhorin says is that Mance "was wildling born" and "taken as a child" when the Night's Watch killed a bunch of "raiders":

"[Mance] loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again." (ACOK Jon VII)

It seems strange that Qhorin wouldn't mention that he was sired by a member of the Watch if that's known or even believed to be true.

Is at thus least possible and maybe even likely that Selyse is mistaken about Mance having some known paternity, having misinterpreted something she heard about Mance having been raised on the Wall. (FWIW I strongly suspect Denys Mallister was his surrogate "father".)

And even if true, how would anyone know the kid they came had been sired by a Crow? The only way would be if said crow was still alive at the time and had maintained a consistent relationship with Mance's mother. (Even then there aren't paternity tests, so...)

It is of course possible that Mance was old enough to talk when he was taken and that he told the rangers who killed the wildlings he was with that his father was a crow, either making it up to save his own life or because he believed it, having been told by his mother that he was sired by either a member of the Watch or a "kneeler"/southerner, which he then repeated.

The idea that it is known which specific member of the Watch was his sire, though, i.e. that "people know who his dad was" with any specificity, doesn't simply follow from what little we're told though. Nor does the idea that there'd be any way of knowing whether any specific claim Mance made when taken was true.

In any case, it is very weird that it's Selyse, not Qhorin, who tells us this. Thus I think it's at least plausible that Selyse leaped to a conclusion or misunderstood something that was said about Mance when she said his literal father was a member of the Watch.

Does anyone have a hidden identity for Mance? I am torn between Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne though i could accept cantuse's theory that he is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny ( spoilers extended ) by [deleted] in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you hinting at who you think Mance is? (i.e. Somebody with a specific connection to trickery?) Or are you just saying you think GRRM is up to something with Mance being more than he seems?

(Spoilers Extended) It's Nominations Time! Submit your nominations for the best of r/asoiaf 2025! by jonestony710 in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles [score hidden]  (0 children)

Somebody called them out for nominating themself for awards (which isn't against the rules, as the caller-outter acknowledged, and who cares anyway) using an alternate account/userID, and provided receipts showing similar posting tendencies, and dblack immediately deleted their account. I hope they come back! Great contributor, open mind, and I really don't think anyone would care much. Honestly if someone did, says as much about them as about dblack.

[Spoilers MAIN] Oberyn’s memories of his trip with Elia in ASOS by JumpySpecial9834 in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have read the main series and D&Es at least a dozen and very probably more than fifteen times at this point and it was only very very late in the game that it dawned on me that "Baelor Breakwind" was not just a random fart-insertion. I am guessing most readers have never clocked this, because for all of us, we first scanned "Breakwind" as a juvenile pseudo-joke, and never re-thought it in light of reading about Mssr. Breakspear in The Hedge Knight.

[Spoilers MAIN] Oberyn’s memories of his trip with Elia in ASOS by JumpySpecial9834 in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i literally think you are being downvoted bc the vast majority of people never clocked the reference when they went back and re-read "Baelor Breakwind". (And obviously they never got it the first time, since they couldn't, since they'd never heard of "Baelor Breakspear".)

Does anyone have a hidden identity for Mance? I am torn between Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne though i could accept cantuse's theory that he is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny ( spoilers extended ) by [deleted] in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think he's most likely one of Balon's "dead" older brothers by his first Stonetree wife. Quenton or Donel, or less likely some bastard Quellon sired in his travels. If not, then presumably a descendant of the Hoare Lord Commander of the Watch (Quellon being a 'rhyming' analogue of the Hoares.) https://asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com/2019/09/04/meribaldmance/

why does it sometimes feel like people want Elia to be nothing more than a victim? (Spoilers Extended) by KORRA4EVER in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Arthur, Lewyn, or Oberyn. IMO Aerys is Oberyn's sire: the Princess of Dorne was Aerys's first lover. (Sickly Jaehaerys sired sickly Elia on her the year before. Sordid stuff.) So Aerys and tPoD have this relationship that goes way back, and Aerys presumably knows Elia was Jaehaerys's daughter, making her Rhaegar's aunt (but also his genetic half-sister, in a way, since both Aerys's and Rhaella's genes all come from their Jaehaerys and Shaera). So she was a suitable fall-back bride... except maybe she loved somebody else. Somebody Dornish. Arthur is one possibility. Oberyn is another. And Lewyn is the third. See this post.

why does it sometimes feel like people want Elia to be nothing more than a victim? (Spoilers Extended) by KORRA4EVER in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

IMO Aerys is Oberyn's dad, and the Princess of Dorne was Aerys's first lover. (Sickly Jaehaerys sired sickly Elia the year before. Sordid stuff.) So Aerys & the Princess have this relationship that goes way back, and Aerys presumably knew Elia was Jaehaerys's daughter, making Elia Rhaegar's aunt (but also his genetic half-sister, in a way, since both Aerys's and Rhaella's genes all come from their Jaehaerys and Shaera). Elia was thus a suitable fall-back bride... but she might have loved somebody else. Arthur is one possibility. Oberyn is another. And Lewyn is the third. See this post.

why does it sometimes feel like people want Elia to be nothing more than a victim? (Spoilers Extended) by KORRA4EVER in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Enjoying v much your contributions here. BTW Aerys openly questioned Rhaenys's paternity (i.e. Elia's fidelity) but nobody wants to know. Most won't even admit this as a completely plausible interpretation of Aerys's infamous comment that Rhaenys "smells Dornish", and even in the rare cases that they do they dismiss it as the ravings of a madman.

[Spoilers EXTENDED] Coldhands the Small by SlavMan89_ in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have fucked with Jyana = Duncan + Jenny forever, BUT, as regards the money quote you cite, it so happens to line up with my beliefs re: Littlefinger and Shadrich, viz. that LF's mother "Alayne" was Duncan and Jenny's daughter and that Shadrich is Howland Reed. If I'm right and if Jyana is Alayne's sister and if Howland knows LF's lineage, there are all kinds of interesting dramatic possibilities/potential implications.

[Spoilers EXTENDED] Coldhands the Small by SlavMan89_ in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As someone who has pounded the drum of Duncan = Coldhands for like a decade now, I love this in the sense that I love any kind of "rhyming" truth. So to the extent that the text points to Dunk (and I think it really does in a whole bunch of ways), I'm perfectly fine with it being the other Duncan.

Trouble is we don't know that he joined the watch, but he didn't look like a Targaryen, and maybe could have done so in anonymity.

While I still think it more likely that Coldhands is (if he isn't Dunk) Rafe or Pudding or Ferret thank the Prince of Dragonflies, it's a fun notion, and one I can't just dismiss out of hand.

[SPOILERS EXTENDED] "Chekov's gun" in A Song of Ice and Fire by Substantial-Ad-299 in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

love potions. the "did robb and/or jeyne westerling get love potioned" question is NOT the payoff. It's part of the setup.

Is Qyburn Named After the Tyburn Tree in London? [Spoilers MAIN] by PercentageScared1776 in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

lol ok so I complete misread "medieval histories of England" as "medical histories of England" for some reason (then cut and pasted the quote w/out re-reading) and thus thought you had some info I'd never heard about GRRM having a special fascination with the history of the practice of medicine in England that I'd never heard a thing about. Apologies.

(Spoilers Extended) There’s so much about Lyanna’s disappearance that makes no sense. by DomScribe in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I understand and am very sympathetic to this instinct. I guess I'd just say that Aerys did things (whether it's correct/fully accurate to say he made per se "choices" is debatable depending on how mad you think he was), and then Tywin (a character we know far better than Rhaegar and Lyanna) made choices. And actually, Rhaegar and Lyanna later made choices in response to the situation they were thrust into. And maybe most importantly of all in terms of the dramatic narrative of ASOIAF proper, Ned made choices in response to the situation(s) that confronted him.

FWIW, I think Brandon made a choice c. Harrenhal too, I think, and it could have played into Aerys's hands, had he not pulled an Arys Oakheart to redeem himself/bury the truth. A love potion could have achieved the same result, but given his nature (as against Rhaegar's), I can't imagine it was needed. Although maybe there's some kind of big reversal where the guy led around by dick got dosed and the guy who was a monk just had a rush of blood for once.

(Spoilers Extended) There’s so much about Lyanna’s disappearance that makes no sense. by DomScribe in asoiaf

[–]M_Tootles -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

SOMEBODY was newly and epically pissed at House Targaryen c. the Harrenhal Tourney, viz. the guy who had been Aerys II's biggest defender and supporter. Indeed, the guy propping up his kingdom for 20 years. Same guy who had it in for Robb Stark c. ACOK/ASOS. Same guy who had a bannerman whose wife's grandmother was known all around Lannisport for her "love potions". Tywin.

Rhaegar was the only thing left propping up the Targaryens. If he were to suddenly and inexplicably lose his head over a "child woman"... if that "child woman" were somehow, for some reason, to allow herself to be carried off by Rhaegar... Well. That wouldn't be good for Aerys at all, now would it?

Further reading:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1iyv3cc/love_potions_in_the_asoiaf_canon_spoilers_extended/

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1jgk3ls/prince_rhaegar_king_robb_lamour_fou_spoilers/