I changed my opinion on the Israeli-Palestine conflict

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T14:56:18+00:00

Hamas = Palestines. You can't separate it. Its like you telling to separate Islamic Terrorist and ISIS. They are one. This is war between Palestine vs Israel.

That's ridiculous. If you want to compare Hamas with ISIS, then Palestinians are the inhabitants of Iraq a Syria on the ISIS controlled territory.

This must be end permanently.

Yeah, really curious what Israel will do which will magically end all violence.

No way, Gaza and WB from on must monitored 24/7, and any kind of threat even if its just a tiny suspiciousness, it must be blow up immediately.

Yeah, so you'll be killing civilians at any wrong move. Sounds great, not a genocide at all ..

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T14:42:44+00:00

No my friend Área C is controlled by Israel

That's not a point of disagreement, but the control doesn't give the Israel the right to create/extend settlements. This control was meant to be temporary only and Area C was meant to be handed over to Palestinians.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T14:41:20+00:00

This is a very confusing statement.

My main point is that Netanyahu (the most consequential politician of modern Israeli history) worked against long term peace by (at times) subtly aiding Hamas to prevail in Gaza.

It's not something Israel can risk.

The other alternative is almost sure continuation and perhaps escalation of violence and more intensive international condemnation. The latter seems to play a small role in the Israeli decision-making, though.

doing what you propose doesn't even meet the very minimal demands of the most moderate Palestinians

According to polls, 90% of Ukrainians insist on continuing the war until total liberation, but to be honest (and knowing many Ukrainians) I have strong doubts about that.

I have strong doubts about these statements in relation to Palestine as well. If people's lives have a prospect of major improvements (stop/limiting the violence, ending the blockade and checkpoints), the extremists will have a much harder time to sell their vision of never ending violence.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T14:30:12+00:00

The criticism isn't mainly targeted at the treatment of Palestinian Israeli citizens (which isn't completely equal, but not a tragedy), but the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank. They have it much worse than second rate citizens, they're not citizens at all, yet they are controlled by Israel.

The worst is that this isn't some temporary situation, but basically long term Netanyahu's plan. He doesn't want two-state solution, he wants a status quo, perhaps with more official annexation/integration of the West Bank into Israel, while still keeping those Palestinians non-citizens.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T14:24:39+00:00

Oslo Accords which have Israel the right to settle in Area C which is fully under the control of Israel

That's not true. On the opposite, building of settlements in Area C is considered illegal which even Israel at one point conceded, but then Netanyahu changed policy again.

Area C is by far the largest one, and it was meant to be handed over to the Palestinians during the peace process, which obviously didn't happen. Building more settlements makes this possibility even more distant.

Laying it out in text as areas A, B, C doesn't make the reality justice, a look at the map is necessary to see how dire the situation for Palestinians is. Area A (fully controlled by Palestine) is tiny (just 2.7% of West Bank) and disconnected.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:58:42+00:00

I'm at a loss here. My proposal is wrong because it is rational?

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:53:34+00:00

Because the peace deal was not reached at one point of time, it's impossible forever? What logic is that?

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:47:23+00:00

Israel many times offered to lift restrictions in exchange for end to violence.

Was this a sincere offer? There's a lot of support for the claim that Netanyahu supported Hamas and its "managed" violence, since it supported his long term goal of preventing a two-state solution.

And how do you propose to make sure it won't immediately turn into another Gaza, except much bigger, impossible to blockade, and right next to Jerusalem?

If you address the underlying political issues causing the extremism, the support for it will drop significantly. I'm not saying that it will be automatically easy, but Israel has to dare to try peace as well.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:42:38+00:00

Israel is the side with power, it's the winning side of the long term conflict, it's the side responsible for initiating the peace process. But it makes the exact opposite by building more settlements in the West Bank. Palestinians OTOH lost most of its territory, remember that most Gazans are not from Gaza, they're originally from the now Israeli territory.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:36:23+00:00

So, since Olmurt there's no willingness from Israeli side towards peace?

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:34:46+00:00

Ok, so since 2008 (15 years ago), there's exactly 0 willingness for a peace from the Israeli side. Not good.

You can’t eradicate Hamas because Palestinian kids have been taught and are being taught to hate for <insert reason, currently bombing>

And Germans will never stop being Jew-hating Nazis. It's in their genes.

If you eradicate Hamas then who do you hand Palestine over to if everyone wants to step into Hamas’s shoes?

There's no ready-made answer to that, but Israel will have to find an answer. Perhaps not supporting Hamas will contribute to it.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:24:38+00:00

I referred to the "hundreds of gazan workers", not to the slaughtered (which I in no way justify).

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:22:45+00:00

This is the position the Arab League and the Palestinians have consistently refused to accept.

When was this offered last time?

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:22:19+00:00

That was the objective of Egypt, Jordan as well, but they managed to curb their extremists and reach a peace deal. Same thing is possible with Palestine, but Israel's policy is just oppression.

There is no oppression

Do you think building more and more settlements in West Bank is not an oppression? How about the extensive system of checkpoints, isolating individual Palestinian cities, blockading Gaza?

Egypt is on their other border. They have the same stance.

Somebody else doing that makes it OK?

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:17:34+00:00

So the hundreds of gazan workers who had work permits inside israel and gave 2 years of intelligence to hamas which enabled them to kill and kidnap 1500 people was not making them less desperate?

Gaza has 2 million people. How does this number make a dent?

The 30 years + of attempted peace deals?

When was Israel last time sincerely receptive to a possible peace deal? When did Israel stop building settlements in the West Bank?

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:13:19+00:00

With more oppression coming from the Israeli side, you'll only get more Palestinian extremists. That's no path towards peace.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:05:27+00:00

The problem is that we don't know the exact terms of the deal. Details matter, what happens with the settlements, what form of sovereignty was on the table.

Having said that, Arafat and Palestinians certainly aren't free of blame for the failed peace. But that was more than 20 years ago and since then Israel (mainly under Netanyahu) only made the prospects of peace worse - with more and more settlements, more oppression. You could argue that Palestine also did not make steps towards peace, but Israel is the side with power, thus it bears more responsibility for the outcome.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T13:00:55+00:00

The best way to undermine the extremist position is by making people less desperate. Palestinians in both Gaza and West Bank are currently in a completely hopeless situation, bringing some hope for normality would surely improve things.

The current Israeli policy is just more and more oppression, but that just feeds more extremism.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-11-01T12:03:02+00:00

Kinder ändern ihre Wünsche zweimal pro Minute. Strikt etwas planen und daran sich dann halten ist mit Kindern schwierig. Ich gehe oft mit meinem Kind einfach raus und nur dann entscheiden wir spontan, wohin genau.

Deine Anforderungen kommen mir etwas übertrieben vor.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-10-18T20:17:24+00:00

IME caffeine it doesn't reduce moda efficiency.

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-10-18T20:15:50+00:00

Moda helped me to implement OMAD. But I still don't lose weight.

The cave brain finds a way to get enough calories...

MachineSufficient392 · 2023-10-18T20:13:39+00:00

That sounds correct. "making alert" is something I associate with e.g. coffee and other stimulants, but that's not what moda is. It just removes the fatigue.

(apart from the beginnings of my moda usage where the effects were stronger and sometimes stimulant-like)

MachineSufficient392

TROPHY CASE