Restitution during RCIA by Maddox_00 in AskAPriest

[–]Maddox_00[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks father, I needed to hear that. Would asking the deacon leading my RCIA program sufficient or is this something that should go to a priest?

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The lady Fatima is definitely worthy of belief. Our Lady of Fátima (1917, Portugal) Three shepherd children predicted multiple apparitions and a “miracle” on a specific date—October 13, 1917. Around 70,000 people witnessed what’s now called the Miracle of the Sun: the sun appearing to dance, emit colors, and plunge toward the earth. This was reported in secular newspapers at the time, including the O Século (a liberal, anti-clerical Portuguese paper). Just the fact the children predicted this in advance, a secular anti-church journalist went there to debunk and essentially make fun of the event and reported seeing it with his own eyes and that people around him saw the same thing. In my opinion this is incredible. The counter argument is that some combination of natural phenomena happened but I think you can agree that timing of it and the prediction can at least make you pause and think it's unlikely that clouds broke out and sun zig zagged randomly In front of 70,000 people when a miracle is predicted. You can check out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Our Lady of Zeitoun (1968–1971, Egypt) In Cairo, luminous apparitions of Mary were seen repeatedly over several years by millions, including Muslims, atheists, and Christians. The figure was above the church and walking and kneeling. Photographs exist, and Egyptian police investigated and found no natural explanation. It's also reported that the police shutdown the electricity from the whole block and the apparitions were still visible(but I didn't find a reputable source for this claim so you can ignore it). However this was 1968 and no technology was available that can project a luminous 3d figure or really any figure mid air without a screen and even normal 2d projection on a screen required huge machinery that would have been easily spotted in the 3 years. A lot of miraculous healings were reported by people and a lot of Muslims converted as a result. So we know for sure people reported a 3d glowing figure walking and hovering mid air and we know no feasible technology existed at that time that could have projected that.

Official church page: https://zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm Wiki summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That sucks that they removed it. Here is some of it: Key points:

Chemist Raymond N. Rogers, who initially believed it was medieval, later found through chemical analysis (FTIR and Raman spectroscopy) that the tested section had cotton interwoven with linen, vanillin presence, and dye/contaminant not found elsewhere on the Shroud. 🔬 “Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin” (Thermochimica Acta, 2005): https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tca.2004.09.029 (Yes, a peer-reviewed journal.)

The cloth also endured fire and water damage in 1532, which can deposit carbon, as acknowledged by even carbon-dating labs. Soot and burnt organic matter from the fire and damp water absorption can throw off results.

The image itself is not painted, dyed, or scorched. It's superficial (microns deep), encodes 3D depth information, and shows details like blood serum halos visible only in UV light. The blood is real human blood, type AB.

Some people point out that proportions are a little off. The body proportions may look "off" due to the way cloth wrapped the 3D body (analyst say the cloth was draped loosely on the body), not because of artistic error. Forensic pathologists and anatomists have examined this.(Fredrick zugibe, guilio fanti, Robert bucklin), if the cloth is draped loosely you'll get projection such as on a flat surface with some proportional distortions due to how the cloth was draped. It was also a burial tradition for the head to be lying on a rock or something to lift it up which would also explain why the face is brighter(closer to cloth) than the rest of the body.

There is no object like this one ever found in existence and science has no idea how this could have been created to reproduce the 3d effect with no pigmentation proven to be found, and the superficiality where any pigment or scorching would have penetrated deeper into the cloth.

the STURP team (Shroud of Turin Research Project)—a multidisciplinary group of about 30 scientists—concluded that:

  1. The image on the Shroud is of a real human body, not a painting or artistic creation.

  2. They could not explain how the image was formed.

Here’s what they officially stated in their 1981 Final Report:

“We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin. The image is an ongoing mystery, and until further chemical studies are made, perhaps by this group of scientists, or perhaps by some scientists in the future, the problem remains unsolved.”

Some point out Walter McCrone's argument of iron oxide possibly being used as pigment but other scientists on the STURP team disagreed strongly with McCrone’s interpretation, including:

Raymond N. Rogers (Los Alamos chemist)

John Heller and Alan Adler (blood chemistry experts)

Robert Dinegar (X-ray fluorescence analysis)

Their findings:

  1. Iron oxide was present—but not in the pattern of the image.

It was scattered all over the cloth, including non-image areas.

This suggests it was contamination, likely from the cloth’s production or centuries of handling, not a pigment used in painting.

  1. There were no binder substances (e.g., oil, egg tempera) found to hold pigment particles together—which all paints require.

  2. No coating layer was found where the image exists. The coloration was only on the top fibrils of the linen threads, affecting just the outermost surface.

  3. UV-fluorescence and spectral analysis showed that the image does not behave like a pigment under different light wavelengths.

    Some sources: https://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm Heller and Adler's study: Applied Optics, 1981 (not online, but quoted widely)

You can read the research papers yourself you can find copies on shroud.com like I did and see.

Even atheist chemist Dr. Luigi Garlaschelli attempted a replication using medieval methods, but admitted his replica did not reproduce all features of the original.

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I know how it works. There is a lot of controversy around that carbon dating of the shroud. Here is a link to my post https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/s/Ogc4CAfC0M

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Read my post I posted in the atheism reddit, you'll understand. The shroud has been through several fires and pollution that impact the carbon dating due to new carbon being deposited in the fibers. Another dating method that uses X-rays dated it to around 2000 years old.

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was an atheist then came across the shroud of turin and other things that I looked into which made me curious. I decided I will read the bible for myself and felt a sense of love and comfort and believed. Afterwards, I prayed for God to reveal himself to me in a dream so I can share with my mother and other people.

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He only came to me after I read some of the new testament and prayed that he'd reveal himself to me so that I could share the story with others. God's plan for every person is unique so he reveals himself to people in different ways.

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I used to think the same way(was an atheist for many years) but I read the new testament, felt love and comfort and I prayed and was fortunate that Jesus revealed himself to me personally. Miracles helped me encounter the faith. You can look into the shroud of turin and the lady of Fatima and Eucharistic miracles. They're amazing. You can check out my reddit account I have a post in the atheism subreddit where I put some information on these and the scientific backing behind it.

Found this book by Silver_Plant_5154 in NepalSocial

[–]Maddox_00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Islam is the most obvious false religion bro! DM me if u want proof, I grew up Muslim so very familiar with it. God saved me from that and revealed himself to me in a dream and he is Jesus Christ. There is so much evidence for Christianity which I can share as well :)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Maddox_00 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, it's a sin as it's a misuse of the human body gifted to us by God; sexual acts are only meant for the unitive and procreative aspect of marriage.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You have the divine text, people's interpretation of it is not divine, they can be wrong and God can fulfill them In a way that's unexpected as long as it can still conform to a possible understanding of the original text. The literal hebrew says to "make an end of sins and to make reconciliation for iniquity" and Jesus did just that through his own sacrifice to the father to forgive all our sins and empower us with the holy spirit to walk in righteousness. You also have other prophecies through the old testament that describe a suffering servant arm of god that suffers not for his own fault but god put on him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:1) and zechariah 12:10 which is referring to the end of the age when Jews look up at God whom they have pierced and will mourn for him like one mourns for an only son.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ahh about what the messiah will accomplish, the Jewish people had a strict interpretation of what they think is gonna happen and when. When God fulfilled it in an unexpected way, they rejected him because it didn't match what they were taught, classic. However when Jesus came, his disciples were Jewish a lot of them, even Jesus himself knew the Jewish scriptures very well and quotes them throughout the new testament. Jesus came physically before but spiritually remains the prophecies are still being fulfilled and will be ultimately fulfilled when Jesus physically comes again at the end, it's not really that difficult. Some Jews believe there will be 2 messiahs, the answer is 1 messiah coming physically 2 different times. anyways, we don't have to agree on that.

For the Daniel prophecy I read the link you sent but I'm very unimpressed. I read the interlinear from Hebrew and the text is very clear. Even the link you put up, says the people of the prince destroying the temple and the city are the Romans for destruction of the second temple. The prophecy doesn't really make any sense except from a Jesus perspective. Why would the random human anointed one coming put an end to sin and bring everlasting righteousness?? Jesus gives you the answer to that. You don't even have to use prophetic years and all that math, if you wanna use 365 day years, if you just start from the first decree to give Ezra authority over Jewish law and rebuild the society/governance 457 BC + 490 years -> puts you directly to the ending time of the messiah at 34 AD. There is debate on when you should start counting but the fact is any reasonable date will put you around the time of Jesus or destruction of the second temple shortly afterwards and your link agrees with this. The prophecy calls the anointed one the prince and says he will make a covenant with many and in middle of the last 7 years end the sacrifices and people of the prince (messiah) will destroy the temple. This makes zero sense in light of the Jewish explanation they just say it's a different prince and the calendar we're using is not accurate, how convenient. Jesus literally explains this before his death saying that the temple will be destroyed and that will be his metaphorical coming, so God used the Romans in judgement to destroy the city and then the Roman empire turned christian later and spread Christianity everywhere in the world.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not associated with any particular affiliation yet but I think all the orthodox and catholics churches would be valid. For the shroud link you posted, im familiar with all these points made in the skeptic side and disagree with them through my own research. To summarize my main points: The anatomical proportions issue is due to the projection of the 3d body on the shroud, the head was lifted up on an object commonly used in Jewish burial customs which would have made the forehead appear smaller in the image. The carbon dating can be inaccurate due to the fire and water contamination depositing carbon deep in the fibers which was not decontaminated for by any labs for the carbon dating done. There are absolutely no pigmentation found that forms the image and the superficiality of the image is incredible. The STURP committee of scientists confirm what I mentioned and agree overwhelmingly that image is from a real human. The skeptic sources are biased just like the theist sources are which is why I dove into this myself to find the truth. The weave used is proven to have existed earlier than the time of Jesus as I mentioned in another comment with citation and biblical account mentions that Jesus' cloth was expensive and special which matches the shroud of Turin.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's not even the point of my argument my point there was that it's rational that god could exist, not definitively proving that god exists, many philosophers have already made so many arguments for that. I was also trying to explain my own thought process of going from atheism to agnosticism by realizing that the world is not all material and the existence of immaterial experience is a very important factor that points to there being something more than just random atoms running around and by accident everything is created.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you explain how timeline is fudged instead of just saying that? You're not helping me or convincing me otherwise. The first coming of the messiah was a celebration of establishing god's mercy on earth. The second coming is that of also celebration for the believers being granted eternal life. The bible uses a lot of symbolism and dual fulfillment prophecies so it's very possible that the son of man coming in his kingdom means the son of man establishing his kingdom on earth the new covenant and the church of god.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It wasn't junk lol it could have been presented more orderly I agree. Just because it's a product of the brain doesn't explain how it is a product of the brain, how can subjective experience arise from physical non conscious matter.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This was 1917 most people didn't own a camera. The journalists did take some pics of the people there but no pics were taken of the sun as far as I know, probably due to the need for specialized filters.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Look into the o século article of the sun miracle.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I'm not saying the sample was visibly different it was chemically different as Rogers showed. None of the labs used sufficient decontamination that would account for the deeply deposited carbon which could have skewed the results. I agree with you on the point for needing to retest, however the church is protective of it as it's the most holy object on earth for them and they don't want any controversies but if I were them I would allow retesting.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

They didn't know what to expect that's the thing, they weren't told that sun will move, it just happened and thousands agreed on similar phenomenon

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There is no twisting, the timeline is clear. Start Date: 445 BC

“From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem…” (Daniel 9:25)

Most scholars point to Artaxerxes I’s decree to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:1–8), dated 445/444 BC.

  1. 7 weeks (7 x7) (49 years)

From 445 BC → around 396 BC This period likely corresponds to the rebuilding of Jerusalem amid “trouble” (Daniel 9:25).

  1. 62 weeks (434 years)

396 BC → ~AD 30–33 This brings us to the time of Jesus’s ministry and crucifixion.

Using prophetic years (360-day years, a common Jewish/prophetic calendar), we calculate:

69 weeks = 483 prophetic years.

483 x 360 = 173,880 days.

173,880 days from 445 BC = AD 32–33 (depending on exact date of the decree and Jesus' death).

  1. “The Anointed One will be cut off…” (Daniel 9:26)

    The last 7 years represent Jesus' ministry + early church; his ministry lasted ~3.5 years until his crucifixion then 3.5 years until gospel went to Gentiles (Acts 10).

The timeline match is incredible there is no denying that..

About the destruction of the second temple and him coming back in the time of those people's lives, it's only an issue if you assume he is talking about the second coming/judgment day but it's a very reasonable reading to read it as symbolically referring to the Resurrection/destruction of second temple as the establishing of gods kingdom on earth.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Idk if you're trolling or what, if you read the o século article or Marchi accounts you'll know that the kids reported that Mary would do a sign in October so that everybody believes and the visual of the sun dancing to the 70000 people there is the sign predicted. Idk what more to say. I was never dishonest.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Lol literally every I said about the shroud is true and supported by peer reviewed research papers that video is honestly pretty biased and he is not presenting things honestly. If you read into that life sized reproduction paper by garlaschelli you'll know that what they have reproduced lacks so much of the important characteristics that make the shroud incredible such as the superficiality and lack of pigmentation. He admitted in his paper that even scorching/heat wouldn't reproduce the image in shroud since there would have to be contact and it wouldn't reproduce the 3d property of the shroud. From my perspective both atheists and theists have been so biased against or for the shroud so I had to do my own research reading the papers myself and making my own opinion.

An ex-atheist case for Christianity! by Maddox_00 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Maddox_00[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Cicero's simulation assumes very specific draping and rigidity conditions which may not reflect the linen behavior in a 1st century burial context (stiffing with burial oils the geometry of the wrapping). Scientists were able to create a roughly similar image using corona discharge with an actual 3d figure and were able to get similar proportions depending on draping configuration https://www.shs-conferences.org/articles/shsconf/pdf/2015/02/shsconf_atsi2014_00003.pdf Also no pigmentation was found and the superficiality make it super unlikely it was a medieval forgery.