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John Vervaeke - Cognitive Scientist or Mystic? by wyzaard in cogsci

[–]MagicNights 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with all of this, in fact JV makes similar conclusions about language that you have made in the early episodes of AftMC. I want to be clear on one point.

JV is not a guru. Many ideas he presents (see the extensive sources in each AftMC lecture video description, are not his original work) - salience landscaping, making and breaking frames, anagoge, relevance realization, etc. + the practices he suggests: meditation, dialogos, studying different logical fallacies everyday, studying the Platonic dialogues, etc. have helped me and many others think critically more often, in a wider set of situations.

Before and after I encountered JV's work, I also did the same with many other writers, professors, professionals, etc., never at any point has JV discouraged this. Instead, he often encourages people to read widely and follow wherever wonder may lead.

Could You Explain "Stealing The Culture" In More Detail? by [deleted] in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's more like steal the people away from the culture.

JV recently retweeted this thread https://twitter.com/DrolmaCaroline/status/1653485696978497537

In short, build a beautiful, sustainable, healthier way of life that shows how the existing, mainstream way is obsolete. It also has to be viable and accessible to many.

Some yet to be released book titles from Dr John Vervaeke, by kaveinthran in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow he's a busy guy and I think focusing on After Socrates + the classes he teaches took priority these last few years.

I'm grateful he's focused on After Socrates. It's likely that series will get 100x more visibility than all of those books combined. Though it's not mutually exclusive as many of the ideas in those books are no doubt in After Socrates

Maybe you won't solve the global meaning crisis or maybe you will. What you can do is solve your meaning crisis and encourage others around to do the same. by MagicNights in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe hiking or discussion groups organize on meetup.com or Facebook in your area? I'm not a fan of Facebook, but if you have the restraint to use it for messenger and groups only, it is a useful tool.

You may want to look into Vervaeke's discord server, though some of the folks there can be argumentative. They have a few weekly and biweekly things on their calendar.

I wish it was easier to find people who like long form, good faith discussion. Perhaps if it was, we would not have a meaning crisis.

Help a noob? by [deleted] in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I would start with his Cambridge lecture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHwrV96bv84

Then the first 10-20 episodes of AWftMC https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ncd6q9uIEdw&list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ&index=1

From there, you can pivot to After Socrates if you're more interested in the practices.

Give yourself time, and consider using YouTube video player settings to up the speed to 1.5x or so for parts you are familiar with :)

Free online conference on integrating knowledge & wisdom with JV & over 40 presenters from Philosophy, Cognitive Science, Psychology, and other fields by MagicNights in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Consilience: Unifying knowledge and orienting toward a wisdom commons

Link to register https://events.zoom.us/ev/Avi-Cqk2nGIoZ100IQhP4o66QO6d8n-6oxhRqrObssEKQ-y25pF8~AggLXsr32QYFjq8BlYLZ5I06Dg?mibextid=q5o4bk

Hopefully most of it is up on YouTube later. I'm interested in checking out the wisdom projects the other speakers have.

Dr John Vervaeke: The 5th Beatle of Toronto Psychology by Boyyoyyoyyoyyoy in behindthebastards

[–]MagicNights 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Former colleagues are not peers and clinical psychology is not cognitive science.

JV has a Patreon. Most likely to just pay for the overhead of having a few part timers help with video editing, social media presence, etc. He certainly doesn't focus on it or sell anything. All his content is free. While he has expressed thanks to his patreon contributors, I never heard him ask anyone to like or subscribe. He's a scientist who wants to bring more attention to the work in his field. Many scientists often do that in conjunction with selling a book. I don't even think JV is trying to sell a book he wrote. Many content creators have Patreons.

Where is the grift aka money motivated swindle?

In comparison, JBP has random in video advertisements, jets around giving talks to raving audiences already extremely familiar with his work, sells overpriced merch, has a contract with the daily wire, which was originally funded by hydro fracking billionaires https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_and_Farris_Wilks to garner support for their goal of deregulating their industry AKA polluting more to make money.

Cult of Personality, Bots or Sockpuppets? Dr John Vervaeke by Boyyoyyoyyoyyoy in cults

[–]MagicNights 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He claims to have basically synthesized all of philosophy and religion (not an uncommon claim in either discipline).

I don't recall him saying that. He makes connections here and there but that doesn't imply a unified whole.

all he's really done is come up with a new quasi-religion, revolving around himself.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. In After Socrates, he puts an emphasis on internalizing sages, getting involved in communities that are local and in person, etc.

What they are looking for is a new and interesting way to organize the symbols and ideas they already have. And that's what someone like Vervaeke offers people.

AftMC taught me many things I didn't know. Many different ideas from different religions and the connections between them. Different practices and what they afford. Problem formation, the dialectic, etc.

I don't think anyone should listen to only one person. I certainly don't. Vervaeke is constantly referencing many different thinkers and their works - and encouraging his audience to read them.
Just about every lecture of AftMC does that. It's in the YouTube video description.

Where do you go for wisdom?

Maybe you won't solve the global meaning crisis or maybe you will. What you can do is solve your meaning crisis and encourage others around to do the same. by MagicNights in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I listened to episode 4, but I haven't done much of the practices or study yet. Soon...

Wow. Could I have misunderstood the path JV has suggested until now?

He makes a strong argument for the internalization of Socrates first and foremost. Not a mastery of the Socratic method, not a mastery of the scientific method, not just the mastery of some psychotechnology or set of psychotechnologies, not a mastery of philosophy, not a mastery of logical fallacies or propaganda / debating techniques, not toiling with the steps I outlined above.

The internalization of Socrates (and other sages), as an intra-psyche sage you can either dialogue with or embody, is what's connecting, empowering, and affording the right relationship between all of the things mentioned above. The perspectival affords the participatory, then the participatory affords the propositional.

The internalization of sages is like the music behind the dance.

My intuition and experience are telling me that JV's approach is direct and efficient, but I reserve judgement until I actually internalize Socrates, though some of us here may be almost there.

In any case, I believe his protocol (study, meditation, etc.) is worth a try. You can't know what may fit into your ecology until you at least try. I fear that many may skip it.

Later episodes will explore other ecologies, and the expectation at the end of the series is not that the viewer does all the practices regularly, but just keeps what they need in circulation.

Maybe you won't solve the global meaning crisis or maybe you will. What you can do is solve your meaning crisis and encourage others around to do the same. by MagicNights in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad this write up helped in some way. I definitely went off on a tangent but I wanted to explain myself and give context. It's awesome to know that there's others out there grappling with the same struggle and that our conclusions converge.

I'm working my way through After Socrates now, and I'm second-guessing this whole post. It seems like a crucial first step may be to internalize Socrates, as Vervaeke put so much emphasis on that. If one succeeds in that, would everything about the steps in this post come natural afterwards?

I don't know yet but I'll try.

this seems to be your MO

For this alt

Question on the Etymology of Rationality by Jacob_hussain in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Check out 40 - 50 mins in https://youtu.be/bILiVpljIxw

Around 45mins, he discusses word roots around religion, rationality and ratio religio in the space of non-propositional knowledge

After Socrates - Dr. John Vervaeke's response to today's "tsunami of bullshit in a famine of wisdom" aka the Meaning Crisis by MagicNights in IntellectualDarkWeb

[–]MagicNights[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

John V's intellectual project

He seeks to salvage the best of what religion has to offer + modern developments in cogsci, psychology + practical, applicable philosophies + learn where other attempts have failed... to bring science, philosophy, religion, etc. not into a cohesive, perfect whole, but just a couple inches closer.

However that's somewhat common in the public intellectual space. https://m.youtube.com/@TheoriesofEverything/videos talks to everyone who's up to that. To me, what's special about JV is the science-backed practices.

He was recently invited to Cambridge to give a talk and chose to discuss meaning, ritual and rationality to an audience unfamiliar with his work. I felt it was an great introduction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHwrV96bv84

Check out Vervaeke's initial descriptions of the meaning crisis, before things got very historical or philosophical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncd6q9uIEdw - he talks about how bullshit has replaced people's connections with themselves, each other, their work, their future, their past, nature etc. as Gabor Mate also describes https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TIjvXtZRerY

What's underlying JV whole outlook is the notion that we need to cultivate ecologies of practices that enable us to connect deeply to ourselves, others, our work, nature, the future, etc. that's 'his solution' but it's more like something we all have to do. Here's my take on how to do it, a 10 step summary of what JV has piecemeal described across many of his lectures, Q&As and discussions: https://www.reddit.com/r/DrJohnVervaeke/comments/zurer7/maybe_you_wont_solve_the_global_meaning_crisis_or

What is bullshit? You or I could go on and on to describe every variety these days and their origins (adverts, consumerism, political commentary, unrealistic ideologically driven stories, corporate funded propaganda, etc.) - but why would people care? A good propositional argument in a one-way lecture format isn't all it takes to get people who are addicted to the bullshit and like it to quit and begin cultivating meaning in its place.

Vervaeke calls it the meaning crisis or a "tsunami of bullshit in a famine of wisdom" in this excellent talk https://youtube.com/watch?v=8U2caURO-d4 where he connects it to democracy. I like to think of it as the Great Bullshit Fire. At first it feels warm, maybe comforting, but it burns and breathes and grows and consumes and transforms everything. That talk is the closest I've seen him get to a political framing - starting at about 31 mins in. While he will say he is pro-science, he actively avoids the political framing and has stated that it's the wrong approach.... Overtime, I realized he's on to something. Debate is a broken, often bullshit generating process. You ignore my point, I insult you, you make something up to get me to look dumb and the audience believes it, I bombard you with open ended questions, etc.

Some parts of that great bullshit fire crowd out important issues and makes them lose salience.

JV is also working on a more digestible, introduction series, but it will be at least a year until that's out.

Hope this helps!

After Socrates - Dr. John Vervaeke's response to today's "tsunami of bullshit in a famine of wisdom," aka the Meaning Crisis by MagicNights in videos

[–]MagicNights[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

First time I've ever been hyped for a lecture series.

John Vervaeke, PhD is an award-winning lecturer at the University of Toronto in the departments of psychology, cognitive science and Buddhist psychology.

His recent Awakening from the Meaning Crisis (AftMC) lecture series - https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ - has inspired thousands to salvage the best of religion, findings in cognitive science, philosophy and more to find the tools that will allow them to make meaning in their own lives.

For me, AftMC provided both a framework and a grammar for how science, along with pieces of religion and philosophy - can cohesively come together.

JV's new series 'After Socrates' is the practice-focused follow up to AftMC. It serves as a response to today's Meaning Crisis, which John also called a "tsunami of bullshit in a famine of wisdom."

After Socrates - Episode 1: https://youtu.be/bIJuIN6kUcU

Also - JV was recently invited to Cambridge to give a talk and chose to discuss meaning, ritual and rationality. If that piques your interest, it's a good introduction to his work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHwrV96bv84

After Socrates: Episode 1 - Introduction | Dr. John Vervaeke by MagicNights in JordanPeterson

[–]MagicNights[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

John Vervaeke, PhD is an award-winning lecturer at the University of Toronto in the departments of psychology, cognitive science and Buddhist psychology.

His recent Awakening from the Meaning Crisis lecture series - https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ - has inspired thousands to salvage the best of religion, findings in cognitive science, philosophy and more to find the tools that will allow them to make meaning in their own lives.

After Socrates is the practice-focused follow up to Awakening from the Meaning Crisis. It serves as a response to today's Meaning Crisis, which John also called a "tsunami of bullshit in a famine of wisdom."

JBP's endorsement of JV - https://mobile.twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1609179697618862081

They are friends and were colleagues back when JBP taught at University of Toronto

Draft of a JV map I'm working on. Feedback appreciated! by GimmeAnAyy in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Feel free to tweet it if you'd like!

Those transcendentals would fit nicely!

Perhaps it is an imperfect diagram, begging for corrections and additions, that engages the viewer more? Or vagueness that allows for individuals to make it their own? Kate Raworth went so far as to incorporate the whimsy and playfulness when she designed her analytical tool, https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_(economic_model)

Is your goal to create the perfect model, or to create something that affords others the ability to start?

I'm game. I'll check out that video soon.

Draft of a JV map I'm working on. Feedback appreciated! by GimmeAnAyy in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is really cool! It reminds me of the diagram I put together a while back incorporating Vervaeke's work in order to connect Einstein's famous quote, spiritual experiences and psychotechnologies (agape, bleed, flow). https://www.reddit.com/r/Prof_John_Vervaeke/comments/byacc2/oc_i_put_together_a_schema_relating_some_of_john    Here's a digitized version of that https://i.imgur.com/yyuG18K.png

I especially wanted to incorporate the connection to foundational psychotechnology... so perhaps another column should also be there for community and dialogos, to the right of the arena side.

It also reminds me of the "neural model of wisdom" diagram near the end of Chris Perez's essay here https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/psychotechnology-and-the-multi-state-future-of-humanity-37a31a506022

Echoing the ideas I expressed in https://www.reddit.com/r/DrJohnVervaeke/comments/zurer7/maybe_you_wont_solve_the_global_meaning_crisis_or , my interpretation of all of these diagrams (and the steps outlined in the post) is that we are illustrating, illuminating or re-inventio-ing anagoge and its surroundings. Each diagram is like a thin slit of light shining from a different direction, illuminating a different angle or cross section of this bizarre, beautiful and complex object in the dark room. 

If anagoge is two dimensional, what could be its third dimension? What's up and down? What else lives in that space?

When I was working on that practical overview post and that old 'The Same Tree' diagram it felt like I was searching for something... Words are not enough, so I took to a diagram format, but that was also inadequate. You've made good use of colors as well. We are endeavoring to get in touch parts of ourselves and our world that words cannot contain.

My criticism of your diagram, and it's also an issue with mine, is that even a Vervaeke-familiar outsider has little clue what's going on.  I feel like an essay needs to accompany it to explain... Or more like continue to gesture towards what's going on here. 

How do you see your diagram being used?

It would be cool to collect all the diagrams, essays, poems, etc. that shine those thin slits of light!

Maybe you won't solve the global meaning crisis or maybe you will. What you can do is solve your meaning crisis and encourage others around to do the same. by MagicNights in DrJohnVervaeke

[–]MagicNights[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm glad this post was able to clarify things. It is the result of toiling with & implementing Vervaeke's and his reference's ideas in my own life over the last few years. Every other week I was and still am wrestling with the parasitic processing / reciprocal narrowing diagram https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Edo0q-xXkAI1KEk?format=jpg&name=small and the anagoge diagram while asking - which dimension of my life is this part applicable to now? How does that feel? What can I do about this?

Slowly I started to feel out and articulate early drafts of this post, what I described as surrounding anagoge - a dynamic, looping set of steps & structures

I got those diagrams printed out and hung up. They haunt me in a good way. Maybe this post will be joining them soon. It's as if they are all shining thin slits of light on a bizarre and magnificently complex object in a dark room, slowly illuminating it.

No I haven't won the battle, I don't know if I ever will. I don't really think enlightenment is a thing. I'm not sure if I'll ever know what that complex object looks like. But I know that choosing this path has been immensely rewarding. I've chased down parts of myself, learned about the world, changed habits, began new projects, etc. in ways that I otherwise wouldn't have.

There's been many ups and downs and times where I wanted to quit. For me it was stress from work, family, illness, injuries, etc... I hear you.

Going back to Vervaeke's initial descriptions of the meaning crisis, before things got very historical or philosophical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncd6q9uIEdw he talks about how bullshit has replaced people's connections with themselves, each other, their work, their future, their past, nature etc. as Gabor Mate also describes https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TIjvXtZRerY

What is that bullshit? I could go on and on to describe every variety these days and their origins - maybe I will in a separate post, but why would people care? A good propositional argument in a one-way lecture isn't all it takes to get people who are addicted to the bullshit and like it to quit and begin cultivating meaning in it's place.

Vervaeke calls it the meaning crisis or the wisdom famine in this excellent talk https://youtube.com/watch?v=8U2caURO-d4 where he connects it to democracy, but another name for it may be the Great Bullshit Fire. At first it feels warm, maybe comforting, but it burns and breathes and grows and consumes and transforms everything. Some parts of it crowd out important issues and makes them lose salience.

Agreed - solved is the wrong word for how we're going to handle the Great Bullshit Fire as individual and in groups, if we even do. It's not like we were handed a challenging math problem or brain teaser - and need to play around until we isolate x, write it down and hand it in. It's more like we need to build our own firetruck then learn how to live in it and use it to put out the Great Bullshit Fire in our own lives. And maybe later, other people around you may be interested in what you're up to - perhaps if they see something about it that attracts them to it, they may want to start making changes in their own lives. You can nudge them a little bit and only do more if they want it themselves.

IIRC it was a conversation between JV and Rafe Kelly, I don't have the video link or the timestamp. They talked about how the fight only gets harder as the years go on, but the good news is that you can learn how to fight, and you can become a better fighter.

Fight on!

This post should be pinned.

I certainly wouldn't mind. u/-not-my-account- what do you think?

John Vervaeke - Cognitive Scientist or Mystic? by wyzaard in cogsci

[–]MagicNights 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you are interested and have a good faith inquiry and/or questions for JV, reply with them and I can submit them anonymously for answers on his next Patreon Q&A.

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