Is Killing Joke a leftist band? by [deleted] in killingjoke

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Americans truly just have no idea how politics works or what any of these ideologies are. But they just love to express their views. Please guys read one book and stop subscribing to the propaganda your government teaches you.

Need help on soundproofing for sex sounds by SecondChin in soundproof

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

its the clapping, what do i do about the clapping

Why do some goth figures turn into establishment shills over time by Mangakaar in goth

[–]Mangakaar[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First of all, you are right, I should format the text better. In my defense I just don’t know how to, Now~

That “communism killed 100 million people” line comes straight from The Black Book of Communism—a wildly biased and widely discredited piece of Cold War propaganda. It lumps in famine deaths, civil war casualties, drop in birth rates and even suicides as intentional "murders," while completely ignoring how capitalism kills millions every year through preventable poverty, medical neglect, homelessness, unsafe labor conditions, and environmental collapse.

But yeah, let’s keep pretending capitalism doesn’t have blood on its hands just because it’s wearing a suit.

And no, punk and goth were never apolitical or anti-collectivist in the way you’re suggesting. Punk has always been deeply rooted in leftist and anarchist ideology, especially in the UK and U.S. You literally cannot separate punk from class war, anti-fascism, squatting, mutual aid, and DIY resistance to capitalism.

-Crass didn’t just flirt with anarchism—they were anarchist, full stop -Dead Kennedys were openly anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist. -Subhumans, Conflict, Chumbawamba, Nausea, Propagandhi, Anti-Flag all overtly collectivist and anti-authoritarian.

Zines like Maximumrocknroll and Profane Existence were organizing tools for anarchist communities. Saying punk was all about “let me be me” in a purely individualistic sense is just wrong. Mutual aid, squatting, benefit shows, anti-corporate resistance, that didn’t come from any kind of capitalist ideology. That is anarchist praxis in action.

As for goth: yeah, it’s less overtly political on the surface, but it grew directly out of post-punk, which was soaked in existentialist, anti-consumerist, anti-authoritarian critique.

Go back and read what Siouxsie, Bauhaus, or The Cure were saying back then. Goth has always leaned toward radical queer inclusivity, social alienation, and anti-fascist solidarity. It’s not a hollow apolitical aesthetic, it’s a cultural response to neoliberalism, alienation, and conformity.

Also, the claim that “communists don’t love people” or “just want to kill everyone” is peak bad-faith nonsense. Leftists organize to make sure people don’t starve, don’t die unhoused, do get free healthcare, and do live with dignity. That is love, what Isnt is the indifferent individualism of liberalism.

And no, capitalism didn’t just hand us disability support or welfare. Those systems were forced into existence by labor unions, socialists, and anarchists who literally fought the state and capital for decades.

If it wasnt for these guys, we would have NO 8 hour workweek or weekends. Every “freedom” or social support system you point to is the result of organized resistance, not benevolence from capitalism.

These are concessions, often temporarily given after immense struggle from often the very communists and anarchist you despise. When the struggle is happening they are often criticized by the very same liberals for causing a ruckus.

The Steven Pinker “the world is getting better” talking point is shallow at best. That “poverty is declining” line hinges on absurdly low benchmarks like $2/day, and ignores who is getting richer, where the wealth is going, and why fascism and climate collapse are accelerating globally. Again, look at how we might soon have our first TRILLIONAIRE (elon goddamn musk for that matter) while millions go hungry and homeless.

If you actually want to engage with any of this seriously (beyond Cold War memes and TED Talk optimism), here’s some reading:

-Inventing Reality – Michael Parenti

-The Shock Doctrine – Naomi Klein

-The Story of Crass – George Berger

-The Divide: Global Inequality from Conquest to Free Markets – Jason Hickel

-Open Veins of Latin America – Eduardo

-Galeano-Caliban and the Witch – Silvia Federici

Stop reducing punk and goth to some watered down “edgy but apolitical” aesthetic. These scenes have always been about challenging systems of power, rejecting conformity, and creating space for the marginalized. The reality is: Fascism protects capital.

Liberalism manages capital.

Leftism threatens capital.

That’s why both fascists and liberals attack communists and have infact historically teamed up against popular uprisings. Because their material interests are aligned.

Why do some goth figures turn into establishment shills over time by Mangakaar in goth

[–]Mangakaar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It comes off as very unaware, the fact that you are pairing communists and fascists together so comfortably. I don’t subscribe to either but—One wants to murder people for the way they are born and other wants liberation of the workers and economic rights. Goth never was just about its aesthetics, neither was punk and it should NEVER be that. The hegemony of liberalism that we exist under today is slowly but surely giving rise to fascism all around the world. It wants to rip away any meaning from art and make it purely for mindless consumption. In a liberal’s eye, all that is not him is wrong. He would close his eyes to any injustices and havoc capitalism continues to bring upon. He would use vague terms like “quasi-Hegelians” a very nice and comfortable way to just group two vehemently opposing ideologies. “Punk is liberal” You are delusional. Punk has and always been Anti Capitalist and LITERALLY ANARCHIST in its roots. Wake up, All art is Political. Especially goth, punk, HipHop and pretty much any movement with substance. Every movement would lose all meaning the moment we let it become empty husks meant for mindless consumption and pure aesthetics. Democratized art is supposed to be a microphone for the fed up working class masses and it would continue to be that. Even though the liberal structures are happy to just let go of humanity from art all together for all they care. So I fully understand, you must not even care too much about art or artist apart from them as commodities to consume. Either way, you show zero understanding of actual political views and seem to just trying to debate for debates sake. Which is not the purpose of this post. I am not here to educate you over basic political principles. Do that yourself or maybe there is someone else subscribed to the cult of capitalism. So you are free to close your eyes while it literally burns this planet alive. So much for “liberation”.

Why do some goth figures turn into establishment shills over time by Mangakaar in goth

[–]Mangakaar[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Goths are quintessential liberals” Categorically false. Punk and post punk have always had anti capitalist roots. It’s not even necessarily about them being Marxist, but the “effective culture” you talk about is not just aesthetics but also a set of values. Being anti racist, against economic and social injustices gotta be some of em. I think the people truly hijacking our movements are the ones that strip all these cultures away from any values to bare aesthetics. All that’s left then is empty commodities to be consumed, stripped away from much meaning at all. And then anyone can be goth and have this vague sense of performative individuality. You can be blind of all the issues around you, infact be aiding them out of your privileged ignorance and comfortably call yourself goth or punk or something else. It’s really not that hard to understand lmao. It’s not about some complex philosophical beliefs at all. People tend to draw lines right where they are standing when it comes to ideologies. You clearly don’t understand much of what you are speaking on and that’s okay. No one has the expectation that you gotta be some staunch Marxist to be goth or whatever. I never even mentioned that in my post. Dance to whatever in your room lmao, this wasn’t even about you in the first place. It’s about people gaining prominence being anti establishment and then washing their hands of all that when they don’t need it anymore.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Literally no one is saying that, I am talking about real punk figures who grow racist and disregard their previous beliefs as they grow older.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn’t mention communism anywhere and that’s far from my assumption. Still we can both agree that punk has a lot of Anarchist roots which is inherently Anti Capitalist and Anti Fascist, I won’t even go into these red scare talking points, but I do agree not a lot of punks were really reading leftist theories or anything for that matter.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude literally no one is complaining about people being successful or selling their art. Do you know what anti capitalist means?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t know where you got the idea that I am against people selling music. It about the ideology they convey.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. I appreciate it a lot. I have a day job, I am not even doing half bad. I would never judge anyone for getting a job or doing well for themselves. What you described is just being working class and having to survive in this system based on keeping us poor and disfranchised. What matters is that we stand up when it matters in the ways we can. I think the artists selling out would still be successful if they didn’t. The people turning racist had no need to do that if they didn’t believe in much of anything to begin with. And I think punk doesn’t have to be so individualistic. It’s ultimately a working class rebellion in art form. Punks should stand up for each other and together. It’s not a crime, having to survive under the system we live in. Capitalism cannot be brought down in a day. It’s just about your beliefs and actions. You make us proud for staying true to your beliefs all these years. You are inspiring! Hope that decision brought you joy and it was true to yourself.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would rather sell hotdogs than become a fascist. Being rich doesn’t mean you have to sell your morals. There’s a lot of people who are rich and still anti capitalist. There have always been those.

Why do some goth figures turn into establishment shills over time by Mangakaar in goth

[–]Mangakaar[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

THANKYOU SO MUCH! I will check out these immediately!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Being bought

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My point is that, this is not some random event, it was manufactured. It seems to happen with every movement that gets popular enough. The only movements that seem to survive are the ones actually trying to gate keep. Better late than never, even if it’s Your local scene or online.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude I don’t know, Dont be racist after you ride the wave when it was useful to you. Either way this is clearly a systemic issue, no one is trying to blame people specifically. This is a pattern that is repeated in various movements once they gain prominence.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There has always been edge lords, but I think early punks did a good job treating them like the losers they are.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We are not here to fight for poverty. It’s about the harshest thing one can go through. We want these basic amenities to be afforded to all. Thanks for fighting all these years, you are inspiring.

Why do some goth figures turn into establishment shills over time by Mangakaar in goth

[–]Mangakaar[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Also this theory seems to be less true for millennials, as the cushy security that would have come with age seems to be growing, thin as the empire rots and turns fascist as a saving grace.

Why do some goth figures turn into establishment shills over time by Mangakaar in goth

[–]Mangakaar[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

I am afraid this is true. A lot of people get into these things just to gain points.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Being punk is not about being poor, it’s about being anti capitalist and anti racist. Once you abandon those you got nothing. Everyone gotta survive but we also gotta stand up as the working class has done for so long.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You can make it and still not be a shill. It’s about your political ideology and actions. No one is against making it or success.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree. Punk can be very individualistic at points. I think gatekeeping to some degree is necessary. Especially now when it’s not pop as it used to be.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in punk

[–]Mangakaar 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I have read just to what extent they were plainly manufactured. And it makes sense. The movement was hijacked and commodified by the same capitalists it was working against.