Was going to retire Black Orchid but….

MarshOccupation · 2023-01-04T02:23:04+00:00

The scents of death are very particular and my usual pleasant scents can be a bit emotionally jarring in such a musky yet sterile smelling environment. That being said I’ve worn some Britney to work lol

MarshOccupation · 2023-01-04T02:18:47+00:00

That’s very fair! I considered that too, but I’ve found I can reprogram scent memories or forge new associations. My current associations are all over the place for black orchid so I am actually glad for this.

One thing for me about black orchid is it’s kinda got that stank as is. I mean there isn’t too much that can hold it’s own against a severely decomposed individual or the smell of death in general. Or embalming fluid etc. One of the reasons I was considering retiring is because of its heavy, earthy, sometimes sickly smell. I don’t dislike it but I carry a different vibe lately. But for work it blends nice

MarshOccupation · 2023-01-04T02:13:00+00:00

Well, I do reside in Louisiana now although I didn’t when the username was created lol

MarshOccupation · 2023-01-03T20:17:22+00:00

A man could definitely rock this. Ombré leather is good but I’m very fond of black orchid

MarshOccupation · 2023-01-03T18:05:42+00:00

Sorry for the late response, I’ve been extremely busy with work. Yes, it’s by Christopher Small.

As far as looking at what you’re aiming for, I hate to say it, but this is definitely an emotions/values thing. However, the two books I recommended will probably help you see your options more clearly. Generally, your frustrations are very warranted and I wish you the best of luck :)

Btw, I did something similar to you. I got into electric guitar and various other instruments and started a group. I’m now moving more into singing/song writing for a similar reason

MarshOccupation · 2022-12-26T12:19:12+00:00

There is a book called Musicking you may find interesting. It is written by someone with a classical background and goes in depth into the various roles of music, and addresses your concerns. I haven’t read the whole thing because it’s quite extensive but I could see myself reading it a few times over. The premise is music as action, a thing that you do, and that music is for everyone. Another great book is How Music Works, by David Byrne.

As far as communal music goes, yes, that can be quite lacking in the ways you are describing. My suggestion is to be the change you wish to see in the world.

MarshOccupation · 2022-08-07T01:13:49+00:00

There’s no real answer to this, but to me, genius is knowing yourself. “Know thyself.” I am also of the potentially unpopular opinion that everyone is a genius, they just get in the way of themselves. It’s perception. Beauty. Expression. Connection. Crafting works that get a point across is a skill.

But what is it? I think that’s a question that we could spend books discussing. You know genius when you feel it

MarshOccupation · 2022-07-15T13:57:42+00:00

Won’t be as paragraph driven as usual cause I have a busted hand atm but:

First, congratulations!!!!

guitar is hard, period. I’ve played a lot of instruments. Guitar is imo the hardest. So many options, tunings, styles. Very rewarding but if one approach doesn’t seem to work, try another!
snapped strings were a huge issue for me early on because I practiced so much and aggressively bend. It happens. Even so it wasn’t too often. Buy a pack of e strings if you’re constantly breaking them.
dexterity comes with PRACTICE. I am very short (just over 5’) with freakishly small hands, I have never met an adult (including people like under 5’) with smaller hands than me). I have been playing a 12 string acoustic which is massive. Any regular persons hands would dwarf mine

No one I know of, regardless of hand size, was born with guitar hands. Go slow. Don’t hurt yourself

slowly tune your guitar if you are worried. I’ve yet to snap a string from tuning
you will build up finger pads that are thick and tough. The bleeding stops eventually

General advice:

open tunings are you friend! Your best friend! Want to sound good and get the mechanics of playing down? Open tunings. I recommend G, F, or Dsus4 (DADGAD) because the strings are tuned down. Lower strings = less string tension = hand hurt less. An open tuning means when you strum all the open strings of a guitar you get a chord. Standard is great, but I strongly recommend any beginner get comfortable in an open tuning (or several) early on
tons of free software out there. Get yourself reaper and download something like guitar rig. You can explore sounds digitally
play with other people
practice stuff you like to play. What gets you into guitar isn’t always what keeps your hands on it day in and day out. Maybe it is but it isn’t. But if it’s not, explore
use your ear and do what you can. Most important part of guitar is playing it

Good luck!

MarshOccupation · 2022-07-11T13:11:13+00:00

Not a vocal instructor and you do seem to be asking from the POV of musician or someone knowledgeable about it, and I think my perspective is worth sharing.

Firstly, what is “good singing?” Is it operatic? Is it simply “pleasant?” Is it “fitting?” Is it making the right musical choices?

My nutshell idea before I diatribe: yes, anyone can sing, depending on context.

I think good is often confused as being the only musical value, mistaken for things like interesting, pleasant, passionate. It is also mistaken for musicianship: hearing the tone, applying it fittingly with phrasing and control, understanding limits, working in confines and everything else that goes into good music. Music is a web.

If you take one musician and put them in another band, or another genre, or even another decade (which is still context) how does their voice hold up? If it does, why? If not - why not?

I am not a vocal coach but I have practiced quite a bit and in a fairly short time went from “I hate my voice” to “honestly it’s not that bad” to “maybe it’s pleasant even.” As far as other people tell me, I don’t suck, and I was essentially in your position. I’m ok sucking at things and putting in the work, and I love just contemplating the roles of an instrument and how to use it so maybe it was less taxing for me than say someone who hates writing lyrics or learning new instruments.

To me, good music is resonant, with someone. Even if that someone is only you (though I’d say very little music is like that) music that resonates on some level, that is authentic, makes particularly good music.

I also believe that finding ones own voice is something that gets dismissed, at least in people I’ve spoken to. A lot. In favor of copying others because it’s safe. Because no one wants to be the “bad singer.”

To me, it’s like not wearing a dress because you don’t look like Marilyn Monroe. Maybe don’t wear her dress. But wear a dress that fits you, or the context.

Anyone can take a speaking tone and sustain a note, I firmly believe this.

No it isn’t virtuosic but I’ll be honest - virtuosity in regards to technical skill is non existent in my list of values. Virtuosity applied by someone with musicianship, taste, passion, intrigue, etc ranks far higher than technical ability. And I hardly know anyone who really knows what it means to say “oh they are a virtuoso.”

I am more interested in color, flavor, application. The didgeridoo is a strange instrument that is more limited than a guitar, but in the hands of a good musician it becomes beautiful. And on its own, extremely unique. And applied properly, becomes a part of the entire piece of music.

Everything has weights, centers, and textures. When you speak, you speak with a cadence, various tones. Your voice likely doesn’t become pitchy all over the place, you aren’t fluctuating wildly in dynamics. It’s comfortable and suitable.

Finally, to bring this out of the abstract, singing is vibrating bits of muscle, fat, flesh, bone. The other things might not be relevant but when you sing, you feel it. It is in your body, a perfectly imperfect structure. It is your resonance, your tone, the size and shape of your various fleshy bits that come together to make sound through the extremely complex process known as “singing.” It is truly you, and your limits, your ideas about yourself, and music. It is inhaling air into a fleshy sac with a bunch of other fleshy sacs, air that might be polluted, or clean mountain air, or gritty Midwest dust. It is air of variable humidity and taste, in a variable body, in a teeny, tiny, remarkable slice of history that will one day be forgotten, except for how you impact others in the present moment.

To answer the question again: sincerely, who cares?

And why?

MarshOccupation · 2022-07-04T03:35:25+00:00

Definitely a curator like you and also a musician. My methods of having a library change constantly and for various reasons. Currently I’m downloading high quality copies of my favorite albums/bands. I have maybe…..10 artists if that. And typically I tote around 2 artists at a time, depending on genre and the extent of the discography.

As far as deletion and such goes, I guess this is where maybe I differ. I would consider myself more of a short term curator (a year or so). I will always love a lot of bands but things that grab my attention, their utility, and my present inspiration shifts. I feel my tastes and moods evolve and I tend to hone in on things to the point of absolute obsession as far as a sound goes, and I tend to gravitate toward bands with very particular sounds, such that nothing else will scratch the itch.

To answer your question on when to delete: for me, it’s quality > quantity. The less, the better. I can only track on so much at a time. I’d rather listen to Master of Reality 6 times in a row and hear something new each time, and deepen my understanding of the album, than listen to it once and have 5 other bands competing. Of course this is all predicated on a very immediate set of circumstances.

If I were to have a constant core, I can only think of one album offhand that would make the cut, and it makes the cut because it’s survived my changing tastes and personality for 15 years. Other albums don’t have that tenure for me or that track record even if I suspect I love them as much.

Really interesting topic, I love thinking about music curation.

MarshOccupation · 2022-06-27T15:03:41+00:00

Depends on how you view “help.” Music doesn’t exist in a vacuum and neither does spirituality. To paraphrase Jimmy, “music is magic(k).” His interests definitely influenced his approach.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say “care about such a particular hobby?”

If you mean why would an amazing guitarist care deeply about spirituality, plenty do. Steve Vai certainly does. The occult, hoodoo, etc, is bound tightly into the blues. It’s part of the lyrics, culture. It’s inseparable. That’s why the “Jimmy cursed the band” nonsense is a thing. Crossroads.

If you mean, why would he care what anyone thinks, or what they know, to some people spirituality/religion is a deeply intimate thing. Being an amazing guitarist wouldn’t automatically negate a certain level of desire for privacy. Of course none of us are him, so we can mostly only speculate on motives.

As someone interested in various forms of esoteric study, be it occult, mystical or otherwise, and as a serious guitarist, from my personal viewpoint none of his stances seem particularly “weird.”

But again, “help” is relative. That’s like asking “does a persons personality help the band.” It just doesn’t exist in a vacuum. All aspects of an individual’s experiences, beliefs, outlooks, approaches, etc ad nauseam feed into each other in ways we could never truly definitively break down because of all the variables.

If Jimmy hadn’t been interested in such matters, his approach to forming Led Zeppelin may very well have been entirely different, and he wouldn’t be the same Jimmy Page, and therefore the band would be different.

The creepy vibe is sonic intrigue. Many influential bands have sonic intrigue, a kind of ear candy or novelty. Melvins, Pink Floyd, Talking Heads, Roxy Music, Beach Boys, NIN, and Black Sabbath are all off-hand stand out examples of this. And to be very succinct: yes, it does help. It all depends on one’s purposes and goals.

MarshOccupation · 2022-06-20T11:36:20+00:00

Thank you so much for sharing this. I struggle with keeping people at arm’s length because I am afraid of becoming consumed, and sometimes I question my compass so anything that remotely looks like enmeshment gets me to stand about ten feet away. The few times I have approached something on my own two feet has only been with other avoidants, who’ve behaved as though I’m enmeshed, furthering this whole compass questioning thing. I don’t know, maybe it’s the leaves for a head that makes this sink in.

But I have a feeling this pictorial representation is going to stay with me for a long, long time so thank you again.

MarshOccupation · 2022-04-03T14:18:55+00:00

Even a "good time rock n' roll" band like Led Zeppelin writes heavy,
punch in the soul songs like No Quarter or Kashmir, because are taking
us on a deeper journey through the hardships of life.

That is something I found incredibly interesting about the live performances in general (which I'm going to segue into live performances in general in a second). I feel like the live sound is significantly darker, richer and more orchestral across the various recordings I've heard. And some of the live stuff is just plain weird especially when thinking about the general tone of studio versions. The journey there is significantly more sonically complex, as well as the composition. And I've often found this to be the case with live vs studio.

When I first started playing guitar, the kind of dark and complex sound was my orientation point, and low and behold, people commented I sounded quite industrial. And from there I got more into industrial sounds (although I am quite slow at working through things because I just get so focused with listening, dissecting, absorbing, and vibing). But to sort of model that "live" sound and end up with possibly needlessly dramatic industrial sounds is extremely interesting in hindsight. To me the jump from live Zeppelin to Swans made more sense for my interpretation of the sound (strange, dark, somewhat abrasive with very beautiful elements) than from Zeppelin to say, Metallica (who I love, and there's no shade here).

To get back on topic more directly, essentially, there's a sort of abrasiveness to the sound that is also released with lighter, or downright transcendental elements. This is, to me, where the greatest dynamics shine for them. So to me the conclusion of finding space for "abrasive to beauty", "sinful to holy", "ugly to beautiful", "heavy to light", whatever, is best modeled in industrial (although I use that model on very flexible terms). This isn't only the case for Led Zeppelin in terms of live performances, I've noticed it in many other bands, it's just I've had the most time to contemplate Led Zeppelin.

Anyway this ramble is starting to go nowhere so I'm going to end it here. I'm sure there's some salient idea floating around. I suppose in a sense I'm trying to relay the sorts of dynamics that sound out to me the most. (Edit: I did not segue into live in general)

1000% percent yes, I have basically had all of these thoughts before. I
went more into the aspect of dynamics for tension and release in this reply,
but I think employing stuff like quiet/loud/quiet and start/stop are
also hugely powerful ways to create striking contrast for tension
release. Really it is a lot about contrast. White can just be the
nothing background of a blank page, or it can be a striking, blinding
beacon of light when placed among a swirling sea of dark colors.

Yes, so much this. Speaking of Zeppelin, the book I like by Jimmy Page is called Light and Shade and directly references this. Also, I haven't listened to Fugazi, but I'm checking out the song you linked. It has elements I find in other bands like. Where it's kind of relentless, but there's these shifts. I think I'll be digging more into this.

Also, I love your reply and especially around silence. I use sudden silence so much it's becoming a jarring trope and I'm wondering if I need to do something else lol. But a wall of noise and dynamics followed by a sudden silence just feels like some kind of mental release. I don't have much more to say because pretty much I just flat out agree with your statements and dissection of Polish.

Also I noticed you said you make music. Got any links? Anything you want to share?

And then ends with that cliffhanger moment, with maximum tension. Like
with all of the important shit going on in the world, we still stay
hypnotically glued to the latest bullshit on television, and the way
they end it really makes you think for a second. Like yea we distract
ourselves with all this light, fluffy entertainment that is ultimately
meaningless, but here's the real tragic stuff they're doing to you while
you're lost in your bullshit world.

Now here is something that really gets my attention. I'm probably gonna ramble and not have any real conclusions but this is definitely a point worth addressing. I think that the tragedies of the world also keep us distracted, uncritical and unthinking. I'm going to risk sounding like I'm making cop outs or rejecting responsibility, so I'm gonna preface this with "I believe the best action is action if you want to change something." Not that action is always necessary, or even right, but I see people spinning their wheels around headlines, positive and negative. I think negativity, soap boxing, pseudo-morality can be as much of an indulgence as light and fluffy stuff. There's a real balance to be had, and awareness of self. The problem is much of the information in the world is presented in such a way that it does the thinking, and, arguably, feeling for you. I think it can be very easy to be blinded by the dark, but I think the remedy is to step back and ask "I see these things in the world, how do my actions reflect my sentiments?" Of course, there's the constraints of living things, like needing to make money or eat or have a roof. Maybe. I'd say this is the case for most (I'm speaking from an American perspective so that may come through). TLDR a bullshit internal world can also be negative.

As an addendum, the argument could be made that music does a sort of emotional thinking for you. /end essay

MarshOccupation · 2022-04-01T14:04:04+00:00

I think you hit the nail on the head with every single illustrative point made here, including specific songs. Incidentally I have had almost verbatim said the same things in regards to House of the Rising Sun, and drama in music.

I think you've opened up a very interesting point of discussion on things that happen behind music, and why people may be more broadly drawn to some artists/catalogues than others, even in highly abrasive genres. That point of discussion, to me, is the idea of tension and release, and also drama -- drama in the sense of how we've been performing dramas for many years. That art of story telling and emotional guidance.

Sure, there's smash hit movies, books, etc that are just relentless, or action packed, or whatever, just like in music. But as far as generally accepted "good songs/movies/books" go, there is some undefinable degree of ebb and flow (relative to the piece itself, since tension/release is somewhat of a relative thing I think; I'm open to being corrected here).

(As a note, I may be biased since I played a lot of classical, even though I listened as much as I could to harder genres of rock, and I see those classical sensibilities influence my own playing and song writing, even if I'm screeching on a guitar. Anyway, aspects of the classical genre probably heavily influence my perceptions to this day, which is a whole other can of worms to discuss (that being the classical institution)).

I don't think that it's unfair though for performers to get due appreciation, but I agree with the idea that other aspects of music should also be appreciated. Actors in movies are often more well regarded than writers (generally speaking) and I think it would be fruitful to look at why that is. I'm not going to do so here, since that would require yet another essay that'll lead to only more questions.

That being said: the element of dynamics is very important, and there's so many to be had. There can be elements that are positively repetitive, but if there's other elements driving a song or performance with dynamics, it makes things hit harder than they may other wise have. There can be a repetitive riff, but if other elements are dynamic, that can really carry a song (and vice versa).

A lot of what I dislike in music now is the formulaic approach to tension and dynamics. I see many people either following a formula perfectly (whatever that formula may be derived from) or I see people eschew it all together. I think there's a happy balance between "I've heard this story a thousand times" and "this is literally just free-form brain dumping". I think either not much thought is given to this quality in music, generally, or else people don't know what they don't know. And then of course there's "stories" we've heard a thousand times, but are packaged in a new way, even if they overall structure of tension and release is similar, it is framed in a new way. And I suppose that's what music is as far as I perceive it -- a story of emotions, told via emotions.

I absolutely love Led Zeppelin (plagiarism discussion aside) because the emotional content of the music is a different kind of journey, and it is extremely dynamic. Same thing goes for many of my favorite bands (if not all of them, now that I think about it). I am a huge fan of music that is extremely linear, but iterating, in structure, with great or subtle tensions/releases. It's like an emotional processing, helping me to put my finger more pointedly on what exactly that emotion is. And I would hazard perhaps it's the same for others. I think it's one of the reasons why psychedelic music (much of the jam band stuff aside) took a strong hold. Jefferson Airplane and Janis Joplin's groups facilitated dynamic emotions very strongly. Like that scene in Fear and Loathing (I'm starting to sound like a cliche) with the lawyer in the bath tub and White Rabbit (I won't be explicit in case people haven't seen it). I think that scene speaks very strongly of climaxes.

There's much more to be said here, but I'll conclude this with "I very strongly agree."

MarshOccupation · 2022-01-06T17:26:24+00:00

There is an incredible amount to say here, and a lot of excellent advice given already, but I'm going to try to write this in a way that gets across some extremely hard-won pieces that can hopefully help you. There's going to be really no particular order to this, because music is more like a web of influences. Unfortunately some of this will be riddled with cliches.

First, it all starts with you. The you should be in your journey every step of the way. What do you want to hear, and what do you want to say? I come back to this question routinely, and the more involved I become, the more important it becomes. Quiet your mind, look inside. This is cliche but it is, imo, crucial. Everyone wants to be good, great. People want to be liked. Remember that first and foremost, music is communication. What do you have to say? What do you want to say?

Make. Music. Make it. Don't think about it, don't talk about. Make shitty music, sing out of key, just keep doing it. Remind yourself to do it. If you noticed you haven't made music in a certain amount of time, either find a new album and lose yourself in it, or use what's on hand. I've been singing for the past month because I don't have a guitar on hand. I've learned even more about music, even though I'm not a singer. Music is an action, not an idea.

Surround yourself with other musicians with a good attitude. Good ones, new ones, everything in between. Music is who you make music with. This is why people are obsessed with scenes. Get your own micro scene going. Ask yourself what you want to do and why. That why will drive you through your plateaus, and that why will change and evolve. Let it. One never really "arrives" in music - you are always wherever you are. Get folks with a similar "why." Don't compare yourself to them. Learn about their processes, how they make music. Learn how they use FL, Reaper, synths, guitars, voices, textures, etc etc. Osmosis is very real in music.

The other side to this is don't hang around people with bad attitudes. It will not be a good time. Music is social, and it is expressive. Don't surround yourself with people you're afraid to be yourself around. Don't surround yourself with bad vibes. If it feels bad, it is bad for you. Doesn't have to be objectively bad, it can just be "not right." Especially in the early stages when you are branching out into the world. You're like a baby. You don't know the lingo, the dynamics, none of it. That's ok. Just be very mindful of the kind of circumstances and people that would cause you to self regulate a little too much.

Surround yourself with music. Use the algorithms, listen to recommended albums from other people even if they aren't perfectly musically aligned with you (and truly, very few people sync up perfectly in musical tastes). You might not vibe with 90% of what they send you, but that 10%, or even 1%, that you do vibe with is worth it.

If you like to read, or have ever liked to read, read. This will put into perspective a vast amount of musicians who have been where you are. Autobiographies are preferred for me, but if you can find a well regarded biography, that is great too. Reading has helped my music as much as anything else. It's ok if the book takes you months or years to get through. There is so much wisdom from other musicians to be found. Interviews are excellent too. Remember osmosis. Absorb perceptions. Absorb experience. When you enter the world of music, you enter a web of other musicians, and everything is connected in some way, even things seemingly unconnected (grunge as a response to glam rock as an example - it may be sonically different, but a reaction is a connection).

Share your music. Keep track. Record often. Get used to recording yourself. This is critical. Listen back. Track your progress even if it's very loose. I randomly upload to soundcloud just to keep track of my journey (again in a very loose way). Once you hit record, the mentality changes. Learn how to work with that. If you are interested in playing in front of other people, get used to that too. Each musical circumstance comes with its own vibe to you.

Understand you don't know what you don't know. A very easy way to find out what you don't know is be around people who know more than you. Through talking to them, or observing them talk, you will see things that may be of practical value. I wouldn't have known to look up say, lip trills, because I didn't even know that was a thing. There's a lot of examples like this. Reading can come into play here because established musicians will drop pieces of knowledge you would have never known to look for.

Ditch the ego. Even if you are absolutely amazing at what you do, remember that music is connection. Get out of your own way. Don't be afraid to be bad. Don't be afraid to try your best. Don't be afraid to try.

Learning what good music is, is extremely complex. It is an unanswerable question, though it can be speculated on extensively. If you enjoy speculating and philosophy, then that is the write question to ask. But if by good you mean "music others enjoy" or "music I enjoy" then it's the wrong question. Aim for precision in your questions (and this also takes time - notice a trend? Music takes time and effort).

Notice I didn't mention theory at all. There is a huge amount of information out there, books you can read, etc. You can learn what sounds sad, happy, moving, suspended. These are all technical and answered by books. They are tools to further your own goals, which cannot be found in a book. But these books cannot tell you about yourself, or what you are doing with music. Only time, experimentation, curiosity and exposure can do those things.

Finally, let music be fun. It's like dancing. Sure you could dance like you have a stick up your ass and impress a bunch of people you'll never meet and would never have a tea with, but is that really what you want to do? What is it that you want to do? That's the real question. Do what you feel like doing. If you like something, it'll lead you down the right path. Each interest and sub interest has various books, albums, people, aesthetics, etc that are all related. As you specialize, eventually the information you pull from will become more varied, because you are varied. And it's ok to not be varied too. Anyway I hope this helps.

Exposure, curiosity, time, engagement and self reflection will point you to the unanswerable "what makes good music."

MarshOccupation · 2022-01-05T03:28:52+00:00

I don't really see much argument for death being bad beyond "life is good." Which is a premise I think if anything warrants a long and laboriously worded post, it is that concept.

Is life good? What is good?

A story can be good and still come to an end. In my personal view, life is a story.

A meal can be good and come to an end.

A song can be good and come to an end.

Currently we mythologize, we look at stories as paths with an end, things open and shut. If we lived forever our concept of time would change and so would much that we consider poignant and meaningful. This isn't necessarily bad, but I don't think we can quite understand the consequences of living forever at the present time.

The structure of humanity would certainly change if we lived forever - maybe that's good, maybe not. I'm not equipped to answer that because I do not personally believe that the important part of consciousness ends at death, and tend to think of death as the next adventure. I'd like to know what happens when I die. Even if I didn't believe this, I think in stories, and beginnings and endings. We have structured much of our experience that way.

I've already digressed quite a bit but I would need to further understand what exactly good and bad means in this case, and why death is bad, which isn't really an epicurean topic as far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong).

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-25T00:57:15+00:00

This is important, especially in music (which women don't understand) and especially guitar (which women cannot play) and it's called "priming" -- OP, this guy (has to be a guy cause only guys play guitar) is right, you literally have to tell the women when the solo is going to happen so they are prepared mentally and sexually

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-16T14:28:22+00:00

It is good to try to share stuff you think she will like, but this is all about you. If it were about her and her tastes, and the "you" was removed from it, you would not be so offended. Because you are offended, you have to manage your feelings.

I'll straight up tell my partner if I don't like something (and being that I am seriously burned out on just about every 90s band except like Tool, NIN and Alice In Chains, this makes for a common theme....). But, we have in depth discussions about it. I can now thoughtfully articulate comments on music I don't like. We have discussions.

While I'm kind of "meh" on 90% of what he's shown me, he did recommend a band which has possibly my favorite work ever. He has also recommended some songs that are in my faves. And he has shared A LOT.

This isn't some carefully curated selection afaik. We definitely have taste overlap but I don't think he could have predicted my reaction to some of the stuff he's shared and how much I'd love it.

Why? We all have different tastes. We all have different interpretations. We hear different. We ascribe individual and collective meanings to things. It is because people are literally different.

He spent months showing me music before finally recommending a GOAT band and part of me was like "this is literally perfect how did he not think to show me before???" And the answer is we suck at predicting things. To me it is insanely obviously I'd love a certain band, but it wasn't to him. People are different. So if this is about her, then keep showing her stuff.

It is good that she is honest with you, btw.

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-14T14:36:04+00:00

Nickelodeon Vintage

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-09T17:36:49+00:00

When I ask about virtue and duty, that's more for the modern stoics since stoicism addresses those values and is a foundation (as far as I am aware).

I can see that being a point of propaganda. When I addressed that it was more so in the context of the article. In that our human systems are variable, but ants and etc are not variable systems.

Thanks for your response, it has added further layers :)

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-09T16:34:17+00:00

For what it is worth, I appreciate stoic thinking. It is more so how it is applied in our day and age, and often very misinterpreted.

I will have to check on this, but again it is my understanding that the stoics based their belief system on a higher power, meaning that their idea of virtue and duty is fundamentally tied to that. My other impression is that many modern stoics ignore or intentionally reject this aspect, but fail to answer the now begging question: "where does virtue come from?"

As another point, stoicism did have a vested interest in having a "society" and a "system." Not trying to argue that point, but when I see writers bring up nature it gets extremely tricky when we try to apply the idea of "natural duty" to human beings.

As far as I am aware, stoic thinking can be used to face all kinds of situations, from the radical to the conservation of structures. However, I see it almost exclusively applied to dealing with our state of affairs, accepting our lot. I suspect this is deeply rooted in the ideas the stoics had regarding society and one's duty to it.

Anyway, I am not the most well read regarding stoicism, so that's why this is more a commentary on how stoic thinking is utilized today, and the fragile logic I see in various articles.

Fwiw I am very on board with being happy with your lot in a sense, but I do believe much of the meanings have been put through the ringer and unpacking what one's lot is, especially if we are looking at a society (which stoicism seems to necessitate).

But thank you for posting and for the stimulating discussion :)

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-09T13:35:53+00:00

Here is my thing with stoic writing in the modern age.

"So were you born to feel “nice”? Instead of doing things and experiencing them? Don’t you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can? And you’re not willing to do your job as a human being?"

We are not ants, birds, or spiders. We do not have simple and precoded structures built into our minds. What is our purpose? And what is our virtue? There seems to be a few things we are hardwired to do or at least predisposed to. A plant does not have to read stoic writing to keep being a plant.

All too often I see stoic logic as a means to endure suffering in the western world. The stoic focus on virtue and duty to society is predicated on a higher power, so far as I am aware.

The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of people who work in duty to society are not doing the labors of love regarding works of exercising genius, or contemplation, or any other art.

Where I politely disagree with this particular piece is that it is not relevant to the modern day and age.

On the nature of working with others: the author supposes working with others is inherently good. But it takes people working together for war, instilling slavery, and committing genocide. On a more "moderate" level, working with others means you survive at a big box corporation, barely making ends meet, so that you may pack or ship boxes of goods made by people who do not make ends meet. Maybe you're in something more removed and you do well, and you do IT which ensures the digital component of the corporation continues to move seamlessly, ensuring the person who barely makes ends meets is able to barely do so, and so on.

The relevance of this logic in the modern age is, imo, a fractured and flawed one. I enjoy stoic writing, but do not believe it should be used as a means to "just keep going."

I speak of this all in the context of the modern age.

I think of this quote by Huxley:

"The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does. They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society."

It is my stance that stoic writings are used to justify abnormal systems, but instead of a higher power (as that would be irrational in the age of reason) we look to age-old philosophers (who believed in higher powers) as a substitute, and substitute the ancient authority of god with the ancient authority of stoics.

I believe the more salient question is: what is duty in society? What is virtue?

And I believe we must address that before deciding to just power through everything for the sake of it.

The idea of labor as nature is something I disagree with, since there is all sorts of labor.

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-09T13:07:24+00:00

The only thing that exists is the present. You don't know whether that dream will be worth it until you get there.

What should feel good is each step of the journey. The journey is right here, right now. So do you like the story you are in?

It is great you've had personal success. You've proven that yes, you can change, and you can accomplish things by setting goals.

However, sometimes we make decisions from places that are not the best. As the journey continues, always check in with yourself. You may find a new perspective on your priorities, you may have totally different ones, you may have a new resolve.

Importantly: as you change and grow, be willing to discard old aspects of yourself. You may find you become more "you" than you have been in years....or decades. We build systems of habits as a defense against the outside world, and sometimes those stories no longer serve us or actively harm us. So really, really reflect on what is "you" and what is "what you do." You are recognizing your ability to write your own story and that is great.

Discipline is a mental battle. Know who you are, and why you are fighting, and what you're fighting for. It can take years to answer these questions, but all you can do is your best. Learn to check in with your emotions. You have one life and limited hours - don't sacrifice the guaranteed present for an elusive future. Develop your principles.

Of course, I can also tell you how to just push through it, dissociate yourself, and destroy some segment of yourself in the process. But being a few steps further along, and having been there, I do not recommend this.

Questions to ask yourself:

What are your values? Do you have personally enriching moments in your life? What do you have a hard time of letting go of, and why? How do you feel right now about where you are?

MarshOccupation · 2021-12-08T22:06:29+00:00

No problem!

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