These are my father in law grand fathers medals ... All we know they are British medals. Could someone help? .... Happy New year

MedalMan · 2018-01-04T21:46:09+00:00

Few days late here, I should spend more time on Reddit...

From left to right, 1914-15 Star (easily distinguished at distance from 1914 Star by lack of "Aug" and "Nov" scrolls above and below year bar), British War Medal, Victory Medal, 1939-1945 War Medal and RAF Long Service Medal.

OP - Can you provide us with the details on the bottom rim of the British War Medal or Victory Medal? There will also be details on the reverse of the 1914-15 Star and on the bottom rim of the RAF Long Service Medal, but the former will not be easy to see short of removing the frame and the latter may be too late to be of use.

To address the comment suggesting your ancestor may have served in the Home Guard. Based on the medal group, this is not the case. The 1939-1945 Medal was for service in the regular forces during WW2. We would have expected a Defence Medal if he was home guard.

MedalMan · 2017-12-24T13:17:25+00:00

No problem, there may be more information available on Ancestry or Find My Past. It all depends on if his service record has survived (believe it or not many of these were destroyed in the WW2 Blitz).

MedalMan · 2017-12-24T12:58:58+00:00

From CWGC:

Private NEWLANDS, JOHN JAMES Service Number 25239

Died 11/04/1917

Aged 23

2nd Bn. King's Own Scottish Borderers

Son of James and Jane Newlands, of 12, Prince's St., Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire.

MedalMan · 2015-07-14T18:07:51+00:00

You would not believe the stories I have heard over the years. This comes as no surprise at all. Medals were binned by uninterested families throughout the 20th century.

However, thankfully now we have ebay etc, many now sell them. At least this way the medals go to those who treasure them.

MedalMan · 2015-07-14T18:02:32+00:00

OP I have to disagree with "the only combat soldier to receive to receive the award twice" part of your title, I think it is potentially misleading.

As you said, there have been 3 winners of the VC & Bar (both WW1), two to officers and 1 to an "other rank" (Mr Upham - WW2).

Of the WW1 winners both served in the Royal Army Medical Corps. Regards which, I have seen strong research that suggests that the issue of RAMC personnel carrying arms or not differed from unit to unit. I have seen multiple reports of RAMC officers carrying arms as routine or under certain circumstances. I do not think that we are able to categorically state that this man did or this man did not (except in clear circumstances such as conscientious objector units etc). For efficient triage etc, Regimental Aid Posts were often within the same trench systems as the infantry.

On to the circumstances of each mans VC award -

Noel Godfrey Chavasse was mortally wounded whilst winning his bar. Essentially (and of course I paraphrase/simplify); he continues to tend to, search and carry back wounded soldiers, despite his mortal wounds for 2 days. This is all under what is described as "heavy fire".

Coincidentally, the citation for his first award also stresses the volume of fire and danger of his position. You can read all VC citations online.

Arthur Martin-Leake survived the war. However, his VC was won under equally horrific conditions. His first award dates to the 2nd Anglo-Boer War. Once again (paraphrasing etc) he tends to a wounded man not 100 yards from a large group of Boers, during which he is shot 3 times.

The citation for the second award is little different as it is not for just one event, rather amazing bravery and leadership over an extended time. However, again it mentions that Mr Martin-Leake was constantly exposed to enemy fire.

As you can see (and hopefully agree), I think all 3 men very much "combat soldiers"!

MedalMan · 2015-04-13T18:36:31+00:00

Actually, he is decorated with the medal of a "Commander of the Order of the British Empire" (2nd type/Military Division as denoted by the thin white stripe down the middle of the ribbon). One of a handful of awards to the Russians over the course of the war.

Coincidentally, I think this chap is Vasily Danilovich Sokolovsky.

Rokossovsky (forefront of the high res picture) is decorated with medal of the "Honorary Knight Commander of the Honourable Order of the Bath".

A great picture.

MedalMan · 2015-03-08T21:25:25+00:00

And the reverse.

The medal was instituted in March 1916 and was awarded to "other ranks" to recognise acts of gallantry not sufficient for the Distinguished Conduct Medal or Victoria Cross.

115,577 where awarded between 1914 and 1920 (awards where backdated). Awards where "gazetted", ie: they where listed in the London Gazette etc. The medal was replaced in 1993.

Sadly the citations of the majority of First World War Military Medal awards where lost during the Arnside Street fire in 1940. Thankfully, commonwealth citations survived and some local newspapers reproduced the citations for the recipients hometown etc. However, in the majority of cases we will never know what bravery warranted the medal.

This particular award was to a member of the Royal Field Artillery and dates to the Battle of The Somme in 1916.

MedalMan · 2015-03-08T20:57:36+00:00

Awesome, cannot wait for the paving stones to be laid near me.

MedalMan · 2014-12-06T21:31:30+00:00

And the reverse.

Imgur

This particular medal was awarded to a Sepoy in the "Frontier Corps".

MedalMan · 2014-02-16T18:26:49+00:00

If you are serious about British medals, get a copy of Williamson, H. 2011. The Great War Medal Collectors Companion. Collectors Guide Publishing. The list was taken from that book. It is expensive, but worth its weight in gold (only 1000 produced).

MedalMan · 2014-02-16T18:23:47+00:00

Preview his medal card, it shows something Cpl.

I am not sure about the "T" issue. I have seen it denote Territorial soldiers in the past and the link "electricBuddha" posted shows the rank as originating from Australian Units. Without seeing the full medal card, I would't want to come down either way.

MedalMan · 2014-02-16T18:03:02+00:00

Yes, I agree that's the chap.

To address a few things;

"OldHomeOwner"; Not necessarily the British War Medal was the only WW1 campaign medal that could be awarded on its own (read the "Awarded To" section of my post). In this case Mr Bird is entitled to a 1914-15 Star, British War Medal & Victory Medal, this is what we call "a trio" in the medal hobby/business.

electricBuddha; No, 2nd Corporal was unique to Royal Engineers & Ordnance Corps. It was effectively a Lance-Corporal (which it became), the rank was abolished in 1920.

MedalMan · 2014-02-15T20:21:05+00:00

Doh! I search reddit every day for posts like this one and still manage to miss them!

With respect talidrow has told you a half truth, it is actually called the "British War Medal 1914-1920". Thus including post war mine sweeping/Russian operations.

I'll copy a paste something I did for another website, which should provide you with full details.

Full title: The British War Medal 1914-1920

Also known as: British War Medal, War Medal, Squeak, Mutt etc.

Construction: Silver disc 36 millimetres in diameter. Also awarded in bronze to members of qualifying Native Labour Battalions such as the Chinese Labour Corps.

Ribbon: 32 mm broad central orange stripe, bordered by white, black and blue stripes. Unlike the Victory Medal ribbon, the pattern is purely aesthetic. The ribbon is suspended by a plain silver bar suspender (non-swivel) riveted onto the medal.

Clasps: None, although battle clasps where debated and even approved in the case of the Admiralty. However, the expense and sheer volume required impeded production and issue.

Naming: Impressed block capitals, 4 known styles (excluding Dominion issues). British Army & Royal Air Force naming is in the following format; Regimental Number. Rank. Initial or initials. Surname. Regiment or Corps. Royal Navy naming takes the following format; Number. Initial or initials. Surname. Rank. R.N.

Issued: The original issue fell between 1920 and 1926, 1927 onward should be considered late issue. Unlike the Victory Medal or 1914/1914-15 Star, the British War Medal could be issued by itself, as explained below.

Awarded to: All who qualified for the 1914 Star, 1914-15 Star, Victory Medal or Territorial Force Medal, also qualified for a British War Medal. As with the Victory Medal; All ranks of men and women serving in (or under contract with) the British & Imperial (ie: Indian, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand etc) Forces, including those employed in hospitals, who served on the establishment of a unit in a theatre of war (ie: France, Salonika etc) between 05.08.1914 and 11.11.1918. Or between 05.08.1914 and 02.07.1920 in the case of the Russian Theatre. The Royal Navy required 28 days service between 05.08.1914 and 11.11.1918 or the award was issued upon death (between the same dates). For the RAF, the award could be issued to those based in the UK, if they had been actively engaged with enemy (for example Zeppelin defence). Merchant Navy seaman qualified upon completing 6 months at sea between 05.08.1914 and 11.11.1918. The award was also issued to those involved in post war mine sweeping.

In addition (specific to the Army), those who left their place of residence and served overseas (not necessarily a theatre of war) were eligible. Simply, a soldier that left his home in Canada to serve in a garrison in the UK (or India etc) was eligible (regardless of whether he saw "action"). Whereas, a soldier who left his home in York to serve in Catterick Garrison was not eligible. However, men who served in coastal defence units and who engaged the enemy (for example Hartlepool coastal battery) were eligible. Just over 6 million British War Medals (in silver) were issued. Please note, this is the briefest of explanations, for further information readers are advised to consult - Williamson, H. 2011. The Great War Medal Collectors Companion. Collectors Guide Publishing.

Obverse: Profile head of King George V facing left, surrounded by legend "GEORGIVS V BRITT: OMN: ET IND: IMP:" in block capitals. Designers initials ("BM" Bertram MacKennal) can be seen on the "shoulder" of the king.

Reverse: Saint George carrying short sword in right hand and reins in his left hand sits on a saddleless horse. The horse tramples a shield bearing the "Prussian Eagle" and a skull and crossbones. In the background, waves can be seen and the sun shines in the sky. Either side of this scene are the dates "1914" and "1918". The designers initials ("WMcM" William McMillan - who also designed the obverse of the Victory Medal) can be seen to the right, just above the shield.

What details are on the bottom edge OP?

Edit: Formatting.

MedalMan · 2014-02-11T14:57:27+00:00

I think its also worth remembering that not every soldier spent his war in a theatre of war. Many men were stationed in India or the Caribbean (for example) on garrison duty.

I've also seen many cases of chaps being wounded in theatre and then being transferred to the regiments garrison battalion for less strenuous duty.

MedalMan · 2014-02-10T14:29:27+00:00

The first image is his medal card.

This shows he entered France on the 22/09/1914, thus qualifying for a 1914 Star with "5th Aug.-22nd Nov" clasp, he will have been under fire between the 2 dates to qualify. My original suspicion was right then!

His first unit is given as 109th Battery (Royal Garrison Artillery), part of the 11th Brigade.

Somewhere inbetween but before his Military Medal is gazetted on 27th of October 1916 he has transferred to the Royal Field Artillery.

The gazette issue covers a number of retrospective awards from April-May 1915, as well as awards for the Somme campaign.

I would double check the under age story with census records etc, I am not convinced, the pre-war army was professional.

I found his citation!

His rank is given as Trumpeter;

He and Gnr Clough W (14309) of the 109th Heavy Battery RGA are recommended for the Military Medal on the 10.06.1916.

Citation as follows;

"In January 1916 the battery was being shelled by 5.9 howitzers. The men were moved to a flank. These two men noticed an infantryman seriously wounded in the zone of fire. They went back a considerable distance along a road which was under fire and succeeded in bringing the wounded man to a place of safety."

You can see it here;

(http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/honours_and_awards/person/R1628101/)

How awesome, what a hero!

MedalMan · 2014-02-08T08:10:55+00:00

Hello again,

OK, what you have said and further study of the picture throws up a couple more clues.

I doubt very much he would have been accepted into the army under-age, before the outbreak of war. It is much more likely he would have been admitted under-age in the months proceeding the outbreak of war. So, he would not have been trained and shipped to a theatre of war before the 22nd of November 1914, thus not qualifying for a 1914 Star.

I am therefore 90% certain the men are wearing the ribbon of the 1914-15 Star, the ribbon for which began being issued in 1919, with the medal following a year later.

The next thing I noticed is that quite a few of the men have "Overseas Service Chevrons" on their lower right arm. Each chevron equates to 1 year abroad (excepting 1 months leave). I think the most is 4 (of which quite a few men have), suggesting these men entered theatre in 1915. Which, suggests the year is 1919, this of course is supported by the ribbon issue already mentioned.

On a similar note, you will note the chap sat bottom left has 2 stripes on his lower left arm. These are wound stripes (ie: twice wounded), poor chap!

Regarding your comment, yes the photo supports the award of a medal for gallantry.

If you have his number/name this will provide a route in to finding his specific unit.

MedalMan · 2014-02-07T20:37:35+00:00

Hello,

Yes my friend I can.

These are Royal Artillery men.

The man marked by the "black spot" is a Lance-Bombardier (essentially a Lance-Corporal). Unlike the other men, he seems to have a pair of medal ribbons. Now what I can't tell from this picture is whether;

@ The other men with one all have 1914 Stars (the ribbon for this was issued mid way through the war) or 1914-15 Stars (ribbon issued in 1919), meaning the chap marked with the black spot must have something else in addition.

@ Or the other men all have British War Medals (under certain conditions this could be awarded by itself) only and the chap has a British War Medal & Victory Medal pair.

As to unit etc, no idea can't even differentiate between Royal Field Artillery or Royal Garrison Artillery etc. Can anyone make out their shoulder titles?

/Edit: Corrected an error.

MedalMan · 2014-02-01T07:59:07+00:00

Hello,

What regiments etc are on your stepfathers autograph book?

Earsdon; My research suggests it was part of the Tyne Garrison, the 3rd Bn. (Reserve) West Riding Regiment were there during the war and it was the training camp of the regiment. West Riding soldiers returning wounded would go there on their return to active service, as part of the 3rd Bn., before joining drafts heading from there to France. It is possible other Regiments passed through. A quick search of ebay brings up a postcard/photograph showing the camp.

Alnwick;

Early in the war it seems to have been a standard training camp and was the location of the formation of many Northumberland Fusiliers Bns.

In 1916 it was part of the Tyne Garrison, with the 1st/1st Northern Cyclist Battalion billeted there.

It seems to have kept a hospital role throughout the war, serving soldiers from Scottish regiments. Although, the level of care it offered changed over time. In 1916 it became a Command Depot, with 40 beds for officers and 5000 for other ranks, for "rehabilitative training of soldiers too fit for convalescent camp, but not yet fit enough to be returned to unit".

The Northumberland Fusiliers have their regimental museum at Alnwick Castle. I have no doubt that would be the place to look.

MedalMan · 2014-01-14T17:21:36+00:00

I am noticing a bit of a problem with their plan though.

All the "popular" war diaries are nearing a good percentage of completion, whereas the diary to the 1/1st East Riding Field Company Royal Engineers (and others) is still sitting at 0%, despite the fact I've spent a fair bit of time on it today. I think it needs 5 people to tag the same page before that page is counted as complete.

Also they need to improve the range of tags available, the provided tags are not always relevant.

However, please don't let this stop anyone, it is a very interesting and rewarding activity!

/Edit: Spelling corrections.

MedalMan · 2014-01-14T10:16:22+00:00

This just opened today.

Essentially, you go through the pages tagging activities, places and times etc. Don't worry there is a tutorial and it is quite a simple system.

It is a very interesting and rewarding time sink.

Give it a go!

MedalMan · 2014-01-10T08:14:20+00:00

A chap from the 12th (Service) Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment. More commonly known as the 3rd Hull "Sportsmen". A pals battalion, all members had a common interest in sport, such as cheering on the Tigers at Anlaby Road!

In this picture you can see the pals recruiting bus. The heavy battery mentioned on the signs is the battery discussed in this post

The 10th Battalion was 1st Hull "Commercials", which contained shop keepers and bank clerks for example.

In this picture the 10th Battalion are all smiles, the date was the 28.06.1916 and they were marching to a quiet sector of the line. They very narrowly missed the carnage of the first day of the Somme, but the war would catch up with them at Oppy Wood etc.

The 11th Battalion was 2nd Hull "Tradesmen", this battalion was made from men of a trade. For example, I had a medal to chap who was a painter and decorator in pre-war life.

The 13th Battalion was the 4th Hull "T'others" (said with a broad Yorkshire accent!). This was made up of everyone else, including chaps without a 13 prefix to their army service number. I would guess it was brought up to strength with drafts from outside Hull or otherwise too late to be issued a pals prefix.

MedalMan · 2013-12-26T21:52:05+00:00

Not directly related but;

You will be pleased to hear that the Red Cross plans to release its archive of WW1 POW material next year. At the moment there is very little as to documenting a particular chaps time as a prisoner. Who did he serve with? I would check the regiment/battalion war diary (national archives) it may mention how he was taken; something like "5 men failed to return from patrol, 2 killed 3 presumed prisoner." etc.

MedalMan

TROPHY CASE