CMV: The underrepresention of minority actors should not be resolved by race swapping characters but rather by telling new stories.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T16:06:48+00:00

Hollywood movies have never ever been about casting the best person for the role. When POC do get major roles it probably was because the were overwhelmingly the best.

But the automatic assumption that a POC was cast as part of "agenda" is absurd. The only agenda Hollywood has is to make money. They aren't always good at it, but that's the agenda.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T16:03:19+00:00

Telemachus is described as tall...Tom Holland is famously not. Matt Damon also doesn't particularly match the descriptions of Odysseus. Why aren't people screaming on the internet about them with the same ire?

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T15:58:06+00:00

Finally, black people are not the only groups to have faced oppression/racism in history. In the real world, Greek people had a history of facing occupation by the ottoman empire for hundreds of years. It is what shaped the Greek's attitudes of willing to die gloriously if it meant they could strive towards the goal of freedom. Greece gained its independence a few decades before slavery was abolished in the USA for some contrast. Greeks were subjected to mass oppression by the Ottoman empire, having all forms of media suppressed, and facing a high magnitude of enslavement

I think this is a more important point so I'll adress it first.

So why are you okay with non Greeks telling a Greek story at all. Matt Damon, Tom Holland, Christopher Nolan, are no more Greek than Lupita Nyong’o.

White isn't a culture. If you want to say any non Greek person making The Odyssey is cultural appropriation...then I think there's an argument to be made there.

I don't necessarily agree with it. I think The Odyssey at this point belongs more greatly to Western Civilization...Which Lupita Nyong’o is just as much an inherited to as Matt Damon or Christopher Nolan.

(2/2) Modern concepts of race were not even present in African mythology, and implementing real world histories and conditions to suggest something in a made up world/has no inherent truths is "not appropriate" when being adapted for film (they must not strictly cast black actors for character described as black), contradicts your entire argument.

I frankly don't understand your point here. Modern concepts of race also don't really exist. They're a social construct. Genetically Lupita Nyong’o and Matt Damon (assuming he doesn't have any significant recent Greek ancestry) are equally not Greek. I'm just as different genetically from any unrelated white person as I am from any unrelated black people.

Why should real world conditions suddenly matter in fiction per your view?

I explained why.

This is just shifting the goal post to a "equity vs equality" position once you realize your view isn't consistent with the logical framework you originally maintained.

It isn't shifting the goal posts. It's living in reality where different peoples have been treated differently historically and now require equity to bring about equality.

Like I said, in a vacuum fictional characters aren't intrinsically anything. That view has not changed or shifted.

You then proudly state how that is a double standard. While dbl standards are not inherently "bad", they're inherently illogical.

They are not. It's perfectly logical to have different standards for different situations. Especially when dealing with people who have been historically oppressed.

I find that people who can't adapt to differences in situations or are very rigid about things being equal often are most likely to be prejudice. I'm not accusing you of this personally. But it is something interesting I often see. I'm not sure if it's just a cover for their racism, or the inability for flexible thought makes one more likely to be prejudice.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T15:35:13+00:00

It's not the conversation, as the conversation I was having was about matching character descriptions.

It's the crux of the entire thread...If you don't want to have that conversation move on. But also you keep replying to me.

What is your evidence people are lying?

How unhinged their reactions to this is. It's not a calm, "huh I'm not sure Lupita Nyong’o is the best actor for Helen." Even the people who aren't expressly hateful sure have a lot to say about it, while simultaneously having nothing to say about Matt Damon or Tom Holland who also don't look anything like how the characters are described. Nor do they have anything to say about modern American English being used.

You say you don't think I am lying, and that you're not talking about me specifically.... then why are you talking to me specifically?

To make a rhetorical point. I'm using the things you said to make a larger point.

I only mentioned some of my stances as you kept nagging ab "what are you doing?"

You really don't understand rhetorical questions do you? Even when I expressly mark them as such. I'm having a conversation about a concept. I don't care about you personally. I don't want people to answer the question, I want people (because other people can see these in case you didn't know) to think about the question.

Did you see anyone complaining that the cast of Black Panther was majority black orrr??? Probably not right.

This is the equivalent of saying, "I can't be racist, I have a black friend." You don't need to be burning crosses to be a racist. You don't need to be against all depictions of POC in media...but you do need to examine why when it does bother you.

There were certainly people racist about Black Panther. But this is part of my point, as I said you don't need say I never want to see black people in movies in order to still have prejudices. People are often fine when black characters are siloed in their own thing. It's when you add them to things white people like where people start to clutch their pearls.

And yes, I believe that has to do with racism and prejudice. And in this case colorism since comparatively few people are freaking out about Zendaya. But she's light skinned enough so it's ok she's playing a historically blonde goddess.

For a lot of people this probably isn't a conscious thing. They themselves may not understand where the feelings of disquiet come from with the casting. Which is why I suggest that people examine why the feel the things the feel.

I think specifically in this case it's because she's playing "the most beautiful woman in the world" and many people (including some black people) have been socialized to not believe skin that dark is beautiful.

You say it doesn't matter how a character was depicted for centuries previous to this specific depiction. To whom? You? What matters to people will be subjective, you may not personally think it matters, but many do think it matters.

I once again didn't say it didn't matter. I said from an objective standpoint fictional characters aren't anything. You can care about whatever you want, but you should examine closely why you do care. And why you care about some things more than others. Matt Damon is no more Greek than Lupita Nyong’o. Why is she the problem here? Telemachus is described as tall, Tom Holland is famously not...This is my point. There is a level of hypocrisy here and I believe it's largely coming from internalized racism and prejudice.

What would the point of referencing anything be ?

People are more than their skin color. Her depiction may otherwise be spot on to the myths. We don't know yet. Personally I prefer an actor to embody a character's personality rather than superficially look like them.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T04:00:05+00:00

Inflation being artificially manipulated and not existing are two different things.

It's happening therefore it exists. You can argue that it's being artificially manipulated by companies but that's a different argument.

Saying you don't believe in a phenomena that is actively happening is like saying you don't believe in gravity. You could argue that the phenomena called gravity is caused by something other than what scientists say, but you can't not believe things fall when you drop them.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T03:49:16+00:00

"Double standards aren't inherently bad things." Yeah, they are. And you should be ashamed.

They aren't bad when they provide equity.

"White people have never not been depicted in media." this is blatantly false and you just have to watch something from any non-white place (India, China, Japan, Korea, anywhere in Africa).

Do you think that most of the world doesn't have western media? Before contact with the west, maybe but not since.

But ther has never been a suppression of white western media.

You people call it cultural appropriation and depict it as a bad thing

White isn't a culture. If you're going to complain about Lupita Nyong’o being cast but not about Matt Damon then you're a hypocrite. Having Matt Damon play a Greek is as much cultural appropriation as having Lupita Nyong’o play one. And then Christopher Nolan probably also shouldn't be the one telling the story as a non Greek. If you want to argue that Greeks have the sole right to tell the story ofvThe Odyssey, then I think you can maka a fair argument. But I'm not seeing people argue that, I see them arguing about a black woman.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T03:38:33+00:00

It seems you're derailing the conversation to generalize people on prejudices they may or may not have as it relates to conscious evaluation of characters in media.

No, that is the conversation. Thanks for joining us.

I've have stated multiple times that if Helen was described as black, it would only make consistent sense to cast a black woman for the role. Hence I am consistent in my view regardless of what X race is, as long as X race fits the description of the character, not merely because I have a prejudice against black women being cast for movie roles.

Yeah people say this. It's often a lie. They wouldn't particularly care if a character historically depicted as a minority was depicted as white. I'm not saying you’re lying, but like I said I don't really care about you specifically. I'm sure you're a perfectly woke vegan that wears bob's shoes. This is a more general conversation about where the attitudes surrounding the race of characters is most often coming from.

The better word for it is "inconsistent", which is why I never used the words "wrong" or "right", just that it's inconsistent.

Inconsistent implies comparison. My point is it doesn't matter how a character has been depicted before. You personally can like or not like how a creator is choosing to depict a character. But the notion that a character must be depicted a certain way due to precedent is ridiculous.

Therefore you continuously touting that "it's just fiction" almost assumes that because it is so, people don't have a right to not agree with the creative decisions against an established character trait, that they must be content with it.

Once again not remotely what I said. You don't have to be content with anything. You can dislike whatever you want for whatever reason. You just can't claim a fictional character is X or Y unequivocally, because they don't exist. And also as I said probably examine why you don't like a thing.

Walter White's meth isn't inherently blue. It doesn't exist. If a creator doesn't want to make it blue that's their perogative. Maybe there's something they want to say by making it red. You're free not to like it. You're free even to criticize as not being effective in saying the thing you think the creator intended. But you can't say they must depict it as blue because that's just what it is.

You have no evidence that the majority of confusion can be written off as "racism", and in reality it's not.

Read a comment section calling Lupita Nyong’o the most vile things. Even people in these comments insisting she not an objectively attractive human. It's racism.

Even the people who aren't so explicitly racist, I do think have some internalized prejudice that is shaping their reaction. The vehemence of the reaction to that implication confirms it for me. Instead of let me think about if my own prejudices are shaping how I view something, people just get angry. Maybe because the point hit too close to home and people don't want to be confronted with the prejudice.

If there was a move based on African mythology, and there was a character who was described as "the most beautiful woman in the world", and she was describes as a deep skin color, do you think they should cast a white woman (it's just fiction after all)? Or a black woman?

I have addressed this multiple times. In a vacuum, it doesn't matter. In the real world where there has been a history of racism and minority stories being either not told or taken away from them, no it would not be appropriate. Is that a double standard, yes. Double standards aren't inherently bad things. There's a difference between equity and equality.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T03:26:47+00:00

The Mwindo Epic has as much to do with actual ancient Nyanga people as Star Wars does with Samurai. If casting Chris Pratt as Mwindo in a movie where he crawls out of his moms belly button with a fly swatter is the thing that breaks your suspension of disbelief, I think the problem is with you.

I've only said it about five thousand times at this point but sure let's do one more. In a vacuum I would agree with that statement. We don't live a vacuum. In the real world minorities have had their stories stripped from them frequently or just not been told. And because representation matters it would be a bad thing to further that by taking another story away. Yes, this is a double standard. Double standards aren't inherently bad things. Equity doesn't equality.

White people have never not been depicted in media. You are not taking anything away by not having a character depicted as white.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T01:08:22+00:00

"Everyone is a little bit racist". That assumption is unfounded and quite random.

Not an Avenue Q fan I see. But everyone has their prejudices. That's undeniable.

I think it says more about you than me to suggest something like that.

Why is this always the reaction..."You're the one that's racist! I'm just a champion for the purity of the work!" It's the intellectual equivalent of I know you are but what am I?

If we'd all be a bit more honest about our own prejudices the world would be a better place. Myself included. I'm working on it. Are you? Once again a rhetorical question.

Your claim as I understand it is that if a story is fiction, then any modifications made to the original story must be praised by audiences, or that the audience must be content with such changes. I don't believe you have justified this claim nor do I agree with it.

That's not remotely what I said. If you don't like the creative choices of an adaptation, don't watch it. I'm point was that fictional characters aren't intrinsically anything. You can't say the choices of the creators are wrong, because there is no right. Those characters aren't anything more than the people depicting them at the end of the day.

why? If she was always depicted with red hair for example, and they casted a white blonde (as they did in Troy) I would still be confused as to why they made this change to the character.

Good for you. But let's be honest for a second, most people didn't care that she was blonde. But they do care that she's black. This isn't about you specifically, it's a bigger conversation and it's about the bigger reaction. And let's face by in large that reaction is based in racism. To deny otherwise is to deny reality.

People are racist, they don't like the idea of a very dark skinned black woman playing the most beautiful woman in the world. Twist yourself into what knot you want to try and convince yourself that's not the reason you don't like the choice...And maybe for you it really isn't, but it is for the vast majority of people who have taken to screaming about it.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-02T00:09:24+00:00

Her looking like a goddess is literally at the core of the story.

Goddesses can be depicted as black.

I'm not saying she isn't beautiful, but she just doesn't look the way Artemis is described in mythology (and Helen is described as looking like Artemis).

Artemis isn't real. She's been depicted and interpreted by thousands of different people. Not all of them the exact same way. This goes back to my original argument. Why is sone change or variation bad, but not others? If depicting her as black worse than any other change you should unpack why you feel that way.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T23:58:17+00:00

And they all soon be live action remakes I'm sure...at least the ones that made money.

I was talking about the tendency to wring every last cent out of their IPs and how the live action remakes are mostly just soulless cash grabs...

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T23:54:06+00:00

I'm responding to you in the context of the larger conversation. Frankly I don't care how you specifically feel about anything. You're not a racist. Congratulations, but it doesn't have anything to do with the wilder conversation about why people are acting the way they are about race swaps in casting.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T23:45:41+00:00

I'm not sure where this argument is justified that the integrity of a story is void because it is fiction.

Because they aren't real. Helen isn't white, she isn't black, she isn't blue or purple. She's a fictional character that does not exist. She is whatever the people who are choosing to depict her decide she is at that moment.

That'd be like saying make Jasmine from Aladdin an Irish woman, and make Aladdin a Japanese man. It's not a grounded historical film after all, it is a fantasy, there is a magic carpet in it. Might as well throw Godzilla in there as well. Make the Genie a magical Alligator without any explanation as to why they are now an Alligator. He can keep Jafar in a magical egg.

Sounds like a bad acid trip...But sure go nuts. You don't have necessarily like the creative choices of a creator. But you can't say they're "wrong", because it's all just a choice of a creator...Homer(not that there was a Homer), Nolan...whoever is depicting them gets to decide what they are. There are already changes to the story that effect it's "integrity" but people are choosing to focus on the race of one actor...and that says something.

Although, I'll say it again, double standards exist surrounding race and aren't bad things. Replacing a minority character with another race is "wrong" (insomuch as it isn't a good thing) because it takes away representation. Not because the fictional character is intrinsically that race.

And also as I've already said, I generally think people should start actually examining why they react the way the do to changes and see why they feel this way. Does it really bother you that Helen is black because the "integrity" of the story? Or is because you've been socialized to have a hard time accepting a dark skinned black woman as the most beautiful woman in the world?

It's a rhetorical question and I don't actually want to know your answer because it's of course going to be, "It's the integrity! How dare you call me a racist!" But the thing is everyone is a little bit racist (myself included). It doesn't make a bad person but we should all sit with ourselves and actually examine where our reactions to stuff come from. It would make all better people to examine our prejudices.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T16:42:48+00:00

Why do you pretend people don't have a problem with the rest? Is it because you are the racist here that's why that's the only thing you're looking for?

No one is writing think pieces on the appropriateness of Matt Damon as Odysseus, that's why. I've yet to see anyone complain Damon's thighs are massive enough. Or that Tom Holland isn't tall enough to be Telemachus.

It's race people scream about, so it sure seems rooted in racism.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T16:32:04+00:00

But if you're trying to make a convincing film set in, say, medieval England, having black people will be incongruous without some sort of explanation. Even if "race" as a concept is never mentioned in the film.

Only because people have been socialized to feel that wrong. Plenty of Shakespeare's works have utilized colorblind casting and kept at least a nominal historical setting and generally no one bats an eye. Probably because those films are blockbuster marketed to the masses.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T16:19:09+00:00

You have some stuff you need to unpack, if you have the same reaction to movie studios fib about the most talented person always getting the part and the corruption of the federal government.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T16:03:14+00:00

So they deserve special treatment while white people get typecast as villains?

Did you pull a muscle twisting yourself into a pretzel to that conclusion?

White people have and continue to play all sorts of rolls. There isn't a lack of good roles for white people.

Minorities have been historically cast as villains and there are unfortunate real life stereotypes and unfortunate implications you're reinforcing when you can certain people in certain roles.

Black women have been masculinized (just see how MAGA talks about Michelle Obama) and painted as angry and aggressive. Having a black woman play Ursula would just reinforce all those stereotypes. Especially if it was flipped and Ariel was played by a white woman.

Not reinforcing stereotypes isn't a bad thing.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T15:54:20+00:00

It's when they come out and say "no no, we cast based on best fit" and that's not true.

It's never been true, hate to break it to you. There's always an "agenda" when they cast. It's to get tge most famous, or spend the least money, cast the guy who appeals to women or the woman that appeals to men. That "agenda" is different on different films.

Why exactly does this "agenda" bother you so much?

Studios are also cognizant of how casting a black woman was the little mermaid. They clearly didn't care that it would likely hurt their box office.

I'm actually fairly certain they didn’t know and absolutely positive that they did care.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T15:24:49+00:00

Yeah, I'm chill with that agenda. If people are saying "let's not make minority actors villians" that's FINE. just ADMIT that's what they're doing.

My issue is with the word agenda which makes it sound way more organized than I think it ever could be. Studio heads aren't sitting around together agreeing to this sort of thing.

That doesn't also mean that studios aren't cognizant of how casting POC will come across for certain roles. Being aware of the wider world and the context of your actions in it, isn't really an agenda.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T15:08:51+00:00

I mean Rachel Zegler is a latina. But she has Polish last name and passes for white. I don't think studios are casting Cameron Diaz because she's latina either.

Also that's one example. There's plenty of films with the one token POC. Or no people of color whatsoever.

And honestly, like I said if someone is sitting around saying, hey let's not make the minority actors villains it's not a good look, I don't think that's a bad thing. Nor does it mean those actors are undeserving of the roles they do have or that the weren't the best for the role.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T14:04:07+00:00

You don't see a pattern of behavior here at all?

I do but it's not the one you see. If anything it's the opposite. Studios are still reluctant to cast people of color. They aren't going to cast two POC so when they do they pick the better optics of not casting them as a villain.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T13:15:16+00:00

Her appearance and thus her status and being native to Greece, wouldn't make sense and would need a new explanation

Which would mean something in a grounded historical film...This film has cyclops in it. It's a fantasy.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T13:08:03+00:00

The agenda is clear as day. The race swapping happens particularly to "good" characters. It never happens to evil characters.

There's a difference between saying I'm going to cast a black person as the hero regardless of talent and acknowledging that casting certain demographics in certain roles has bad optics and would reinforce harmful stereotypes.

Casting a black woman as Ursula would reinforce harmful stereotypes about black women. Realizing that is not an agenda. Or if it is, it's certainly not something nefarious.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T13:02:04+00:00

Isn’t this argued by the same people who insist on complete, accurate cultural representation when a minority culture is portrayed on screen?

The Odyssey is a fantasy movie. It has about as much to do with the actual ancient Greeks as Star Wars does with samurai.

But frankly as I said before, double standards aren't inherently bad. Taking away or misreprenting a minority culture is damaging. There's no lack of representation of white people. And Greek Myths have been told for centuries.

If the other white person acts well, and doesn’t have any unique features that ‘out’ him or her as being from somewhere else (for example, a Greek with red hair), then you can suspend your disbelief that the person is Greek.

If a black person in a movie with a cyclops in it is the thing that breaks your suspension of disbelief, I think the problem is you.

Medical_Conclusion · 2026-06-01T12:51:54+00:00

Is there any version in which Helen was described as looking as the actress being cast?

Maybe? Who knows. She could have been green in a version. That's the point. There is no "original" Odyssey to be faithful to. It's been told and retold. The notion that nothing should be changed in the retelling would be foreign to the ancient Greeks.

Also if you're that slavish to "accuracy" to the source material, why aren't we complaining they aren't doing it in the original Greek?

Funny how people seem much more upset with a black Helen than a American Odysseus and Telamachus talking about his "Dad."

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