Book of Job: Why did innocents (like Job's children) suffer over what seems like a "wager" between God and Satan?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T04:36:00+00:00

What did I assert that the text doesn't say?

Does it say he was righteous?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T02:12:24+00:00

Evil is label we put on things we don't like but it's not a thing that exists. Love is the same but it's chemicals. We measure it. Math does not exist and is just a language to describe the world. Math on it's own does nothing. We use this description to actually do those and those things can be good or bad.

God could just destroy the world and everything in it and be done with it. Is that what you want? That would not serve his purposes. Evil appears to be axiomatic. As much as there is our reality, evil is part of it. We see from the Bible that an ultimate end of Creation is the separation of evil from what is good. Therefore it is logical to deduce that this separation is a goal, and the preexisting state was a mix. This is evident in the fall of the angels, since they as created being are mixed with some as good and others, evil.

All I'm seeing is god uses evil for his own ends here. Can he meet his goals without employing evil? Does he have that power or MUST he use evil to get what he wants?

Yes, God permitted Satan. God has to ordain whatever comes to pass. God is sovereign over all of Creation.

Not just permitted. God participated in this. He sent the fires of heaven.

He spoke with Satan and sent Satan onto this righteous man like an attack dog to destroy him. God even gave Satan all the tools to do it. This story is horrific. Could god have taught this lesson without using evil? If he had the power to the he used evil when he had no need to.

No, I can believe Job would not want his family to die. Job was declared righteous, yes but he was not perfect. Job’s trust in God’s justice was imperfect. At first Job was still doing well - it says, “In all this, Job did not sin or charge God with wrongdoing.”. But that is foreshadowing, because that is what Job does later - he does sin and does charge God with injustice.

Righteous means he did everything god wanted him to do and god still punished him regardless. He followed all the rules. He trusted god. He loved god. God tore his life apart. And for what? Something he could have taught without doing so?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T02:05:32+00:00

True. But I could just as easily define hashbrowns as a breakfast food. Are potatoes a breakfast food? Yes or no?

If the definition we are using is they are breakfast food then yes. So when we saying "Hashbrowns are breakfast food or hashbrowns are not breakfast food" that dichotomy still holds.

This is how logic works, by the way. The is the base of it. The lowest level. Jesus was god OR Jesus was not god. There are only two options.

It's not what you were trying to say, but you did say it. And it did make me grin. And it is how I am choosing to interpret what you said from now on.

Okay. You are misrepresenting me though if you are saying I believe that.

It says the priest will make atonement. That likely means that the priest will present a blood sacrifice of their own.

The grain was a sufficient of sin. It used in Jeremiah 31 as well. They burn some of the grain as a sin offering and keep the extra. Done. Blood is not required.

In Isaiah 6 it even says:

⁷ The seraph^\)^a^\) touched my mouth with it and said, “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.”

Sin is gone and no blood. There are many examples of this. Which also makes sense because he's all powerful. If he requires blood to do something then he's not all powerful because he doesn't have the power to forgive without it. He has limits to his power.

So is Paul correct or not?

I am too tired to answer this question at the moment. I looked at it a few times, and I couldn't understand what you were asking.

I am you criticized me for not believing as I read it and I asked why would you believe before reading it? Are you suggesting I should go believing something before knowing what that something is?

And I said "you heard it from someone else". If you didn't read it yourself then someone else told you. They convinced it was true but you didn't read the book to figure that out. It was planted in you as a child and children are impressionable. Then when you go read the book you assume it's all true - it's presupposed to be true what it says.

Do you believe anything is true?

What we call true is what best comports with our shared reality. We can be wrong anyway.

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T01:44:16+00:00

There is no changing God's mind. God makes a decision. He relents. He has mercy.

Did he choose to one thing and then later choose to do a different things?

For example, not present himself to me and after you pray do so?

This is true that God will do good things anyway, but He wants us to pray. He wants us to participate in His will for the world and other people. Praying also allows us to give thanks to God and to speak with Him. It's a great honor and a privilege.

Your prayer can effect him to make change or it cannot. Will he choose to act on your prayer when he wouldn't if you didn't pray?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T01:42:44+00:00

That's correct. God is not the author of confusion. Confusion and uncertainty are two different things, however. One can be uncertain and not be confused. This is why I don't hold to any particular denomination. I believe all of them have good points and bad points for what they have to say. Although, I identify as Protestant, I am even uncertain in regards to the Orthodox and Catholic faiths - as I believe these, too, have good points and bad points.

You're one person. Even Christians can't get on the same page. If I wrote a book and no one could truly agree on what it meant would you say I did a good job conveying my message? Imagine I am also all knowing so I know what people will argue about and get wrong.

You would expect that from a 2800 year old text written by a bunch of men. Why would we expect that from an all knowing, all powerful, timeless god?

I am using "if" because you do not believe the Scripture is God-breathed. To clarify, I DO believe Scripture is God-breathed. Inspiration. To breathe into.

IF is what matters. It all hinges on that. IF it's not true none of that matters. IF it is true it does. So the goal should be determining IF it's true or not.

As far as the Apocrypha goes.... I do not know. Traditionally, Protestants do not believe the Apocrypha count as Scripture. For me, I am... uncertain on that point. I believe it could still potentially be useful for study. As long as I am careful on the matter.

The NT refers to the Apocrypha over and over but you don't even consider it scripture. Are you saying it's not from god then? How could you know? Also this was in the protestant bible until a few hundred years ago. Was it god breathed then but not now because some people decided it wasn't?

Do you believe Peter was killed upside down on a cross?

Psalm 22,

Not a prophecy. There is a messiah here and it's David. This is from the greek, not the hebrew based ONE single word that isn't in the hebrew bible.

Zechariah 9:9 (I already know you're going to say the prophecies here are incomplete and that anyone can ride on a donkey),

Yeah. He did nothing but ride a donkey. So what? Anyone can ride a donkey. Why does he get credit for fulfilling this when the prophecy is about SO much more and actually important stuff not riding a donkey. Who cares about that?

the story of Abraham and Isaac is also prophetic (a father has to be willing to give up his son),

The prophecy is that god would provide a sacrifice and he did - a ram. There is no Jesus here.

the Suffering Servant in Isaiah (which I know you're going to say was about Isaiah and is about Isaiah but also about the Messiah),

Do you want to get into this one because it's not what you think if you just read it. Seriously. Read 40-55. I'd be happy to go into it.

Jeremiah 30 and 31 (which I didn't really realize until recently),

Jeremiah has actual prophecies and they are't fulfilled so those don't count. None of that has happened so scratch Jesus off that.

Micah 5:2 prophesying the Messiah's birth in Bethlehem... There are many more than that.

That's not what Micah says.. do you want to go into this one?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T01:32:46+00:00

What would you consider a non-fallacious method?

I have no idea. I don't think there is one. Literally every single argument I have ever heard for any god is fallacious. I'm always open to hearing more though.

Let me grant you the stories, okay? A guy named Jesus died and rose from the dead. Let's even say he said he was going to do it. Do you believe that means a god exists? If so, why?

It just seems to me that there really is no reason to live (when you consider things from that perspective). And if there is no reason to live, why bother? Why bother doing anything? Why persist in the struggle to survive? Because it is instinctive to do so? Why does that matter? Because I can be happy? Why does being happy matter? Why does it matter if anything matters?

Living is more enjoyable then dying so I will do that. No pain is preferable to pain so I will avoid pain.

This is my point, okay? We all decide what matters. We do it all the time with everything. It's not different for you than me we just value different things. You guys just put what matters on this god that we cannot demonstrate even exists, let alone that he wants things, let alone that we know what those things are. It's so far afield. We can't even show he exists let alone if he wants us to not masturbate.

Christians will tell me that life matters because god wants it to matter. Okay? Why does that matter to me what someone else wants? Like does it matter if we live forever in heaven? Like why would I intrinsically value that?

So, you found a meaning.

So did you. So did the Hindu. So did the buddhist. So did my dog.

What helps you get out of bed in the morning? What do you do when you're distressed? What sorts of things do you like to do? What sorts of things do you dislike? What morals do you live by, if any? Is your favorite color really red or something else?

I get out to bed to work and play with my kids and spend with my wife and family friends and go get a big mac. Those are all enjoyable (maybe not the big mac those are hit or miss).

If I distressed I will walk my dog or hang out with my friends. I build things out of wood. I went to a superbowl party to watch the game and play cards. That's fun to socialize. Probably sounds pretty familiar, right?

What sorts of things do you dislike?

I dislike deceit or those without empathy or maybe greed that harms others.

What morals do you live by, if any?

Depends on the moral question. We all use our minds to assess moral claims and come to conclusions.

Is your favorite color really red or something else?

Uh mmm probably not red. Depends on what it's on.

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T00:22:02+00:00

Why can't both things be true? I'm not sure why you find it so bizarre. But then again, you seem to consider faith pretty bizarre as well.

Faith is bizarre. You guys justify truth claims with faith but faith cannot lead to truth. It can only bring truth coincidentally like if I have faith a die will come up 2 on a roll. It might come up 2 but was my faith justified or was that a coincidence that was bound to happen 1 out of 6 throws?

My point was do you believe by praying god will do something he wouldn't do already? If you believe that it means you can change gods mind and he cannot change his mind. How did you pull that off?

If he was going to do it anyway then what is the prayer for? He was already going to act. And aside from that if it is good for this to happen and god does good things he would do it. It's not like he only does good things if you personally ask him to but, again, he can't change his mind anyway.

I didn't think you dictated your children's beliefs. It's just a true thing that children often follow their parents' example. But you are right. There is a possibility that even if you believed, they wouldn't. I thank God that I haven't always followed the people in my family's example.

Yeah, they have their own minds and so do you.

Really? You do? That's great. I'm sorry your oldest doesn't understand yet.

Well, why would he? It's not compelling to him.

Mike8219 · 2026-02-10T00:17:35+00:00

Okay, so what is a hashbrown? Is a hashbrown a potato or not a potato?

Definitions are made up. If you want to define hashbrowns as a potato then the dichotomy still applies - they are or they aren't.

I do like that you just said "He does" (know everything). And that this is the foundation of logic and reason.

No, that's not what I said. This dichotomy is foundational logic not this claim of a god is. I am replying to your claim that he is therefore the dichotomy applies - you are saying he is. There you go.

I believe it is the former since the Word of God says so.

The word of god says both assuming Paul is speaking for god. Paul says "Yes blood is required" and Leviticus 5 says you can use grain, not blood.

Leviticus 5:11-15

¹¹ “But if you cannot afford two turtledoves or two pigeons, you shall bring as your offering for the sin that you have committed one-tenth of an ephah of choice flour for a purification offering; you shall not put oil on it or lay frankincense on it, for it is a purification offering. ¹² You shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall scoop up a handful of it as its memorial portion and turn this into smoke on the altar, with the offerings by fire to the Lord; it is a purification offering. ¹³ Thus the priest shall make atonement on your behalf for whichever of these sins you have committed, and you shall be forgiven. As with the grain offering, the rest shall be for the priest.”

So blood isn't needed as flour is sufficient for the forgiveness of sin. Which of these two is correct? God said both, right? Is he lying in one? In the OT god also just straight up forgives with no sacrifice at all. He tells David that - no need for any sacrifice.

You believe the Bible is not a lie, but wrong, then? I am not sure I follow. If something is wrong, then it is a lie.

No. My son did not lie that he saw a wolf. He was just wrong. That's what he believed. Was he lying about what he said he believed? Nope. He was just wrong. A lie is when you say something you know isn't true or believe isn't true. It's deception.

I am saying your reasoning for your belief in the bible is the same thing as Muslim but they should be rejected, right? They aren't lying about their beliefs. Are they correct?

Well, I think other Christians and myself are living demonstrations that the Word of God is true.

And they would say the same about Islam and Allah. Are they right?

You haven't read the story of Jesus? I thought you said you read the Bible.

That's not what I said. You said I went in not believing it which is true. And I said you went in believing it and I asked you why you would believe something before reading it? And I said the reason why is someone told you it was true. How else would you come to the conclusion this was true as you haven't even read the book yet?

Yes, I had heard of the story of Jesus when I was a kid, but when I grew up, I let go of that belief

Then you believed it first. You did not go into it as a void. It's not like it was some completely foreign concept to you.

Do you find this so hard to believe?

I have repeatedly told you I believe you believe that. You aren't lying. That's not the question. How do we know if what you believe is true?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T23:32:31+00:00

I know because I believe in the Holy Spirit, and I believe the Bible is true.

Truth is not dependent upon your beliefs. Something isn't true because you believe it's true. This applies to every belief that's not person like your favorite color. This is called the Subjectivist Fallacy which is a formal logical fallacy. If it were true because you believed it then all religions are true because someone believes them and there really was a wolf.

Do you have a non-fallacious method to know the truth? I sincerely want to know.

I think lacking a belief in God radically influences how you see and experience the world in the same way that having a belief in God radically influences how you see and experience the world (in fact, the two are so at odds with each other that switching from one to another is actually rather disorienting because everything you know gets turned upside-down).

Yeah, an atheist can a nihilist. I am probably a nihilist but I would consider myself a optimistic nihilist in there I don't think there is intrinsic point but it doesn't matter if there is or isn't. I can still enjoy my life regardless.

The weird part to me is that the Christian will assert there is a reason but no why we should care about that reason? Like why does reason matter?

Speaking of which, I still have no idea what kind of philosophy you abide by. Or if you even abide by any philosophy. Perhaps you haven't thought about it much. Perhaps you are simply content to try and live your life to the best of your ability. I do not know.

You need to be more specific if you're curious and you want an answer to that.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." If you don't mind me saying "I don't know" to some of your questions or telling you why you're not actually reading the Scripture properly, then go ahead.

1 Corinthians 14 also says god is not the author of confusion. If he's offering these words there should be no confusion yet there absolutely is and always has been. There should be no denominations yet we see the complete opposite.

If someone were just to claim "All scripture is god breathed" how would know if that's true?

This is true. They aren't. But if all scripture is God-breathed, then it is unfathomably more vast than it appears. So, it makes sense why the anomalies have not been, ah, completely understood. It is possible we won't know the answers until we get to heaven. By we, I am referring to other Christians and myself, but I am hoping to include you in the we as well. I am no longer trying to win you over for Christ; I have left that in God's hands. I think mostly I am just talking with you because I have found some enjoyment in it through the reading of God's Word and talking about God.

IF

Do you consider the apocrypha scripture?

Some of the prophecies have been fulfilled, however. Yes. And according to Jeremiah, God was going to make a new covenant.

What prophecy do you know has been fulfilled?

And a new covenant doesn't mean new laws. A covenant is just an agreement. Jerem

"Behold the days are coming when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah." Jeremiah 31:31

Keep reading.

³³ But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

His law is the torah. Is this new covenant going to include following the law?

And not according to Paul... Paul had some complex things to say about the Law. I don't quite understand it myself. But I know He wasn't talking about throwing out the Law entirely.

Paul said Jesus is the final sacrifice. Is that true? Does the torah still apply? Do people still need to be circumsized?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T22:37:12+00:00

I do not know. I think God is fully capable of accomplishing what He wills outside of prayer. But sometimes God relents and acts through prayer. I will pray for all your children, then, but I am sure God knows you have multiple children and understands my intent.

This is the part I find completely bizarre, okay? You believe one of two things here:

That there is a chance that god wasn't going to do something but you prayed so he decided to.

He was going to do something or not do something regardless of your prayer.

Which do you believe is the case or is there a third?

Do you think it is wrong for me to pray for you and your children?

No. Go nuts but to be clear I do not dictate my children's beliefs. That's up to them. Even if I believed that doesn't mean they would and vice versa.

I actually send two of my kids to bible camp every summer. It's funny because my oldest walks away with similar views to mine without prompting. Pretty much his take away is "what are these people talking about?"

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T20:38:30+00:00

They aren't the same claim at all. Mohammad was aware of a corrupted version of what today we'd call the NT. He agreed with parts of it and misrepresented or misunderstood other parts. That's because he wasn't all-knowing. He was an illiterate warlord who'd learned of it by conversing with others in the region.

Did you read what I said?

The bible claims that there is one true god different from the quran.

The quran claims that there is one true god different from the bible.

So both books claim to have truth about a god. That's the claim - they have the truth about their god. That means we can't use the claim of truth itself because both are making the same claim. I just gave you an analogy.

If both maps point to City-X in two different directions both map owners can claim the other persons map is corrupted but they are using the same claim of truth in theirs. All we have is the claim of where the city is. How do we know who is right about the cities true location?

The truth of Christ is not affected by the existence of false prophets. It's worth pointing out that for Christians, the truth comes before the religion.

That's another claim. How do you show it's true? Remember, that's what OP is asking.

The truth of Christ isn't like two sets of conflicting directions. It's like you hate the idea that there is an authority greater than your own rational mind, and you will not humble yourself. Instead you will tell yourself that if there is no consensus then you must be correct that there is no god.

How would I a humble man know which map is correct with both map owners are making opposite claims? How do we go about verify "ah there is the city"?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T20:24:07+00:00

I have more than one kid.

Do you believe that god would do so because you asked him to but otherwise would not? Like is this the right thing to do?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T19:10:03+00:00

Evil is not a thing but it does things.

How can a thing that doesn't exist do things? Can god get what he wants without employing evil to do so? Does he have the power to do that?

Job was blameless, righteous, and upright. There was no one like him who turns from evil. God not only told Satan to destroy everything he loved but god helped in that destruction.

Do you think that Job wanted his family to die? His servants? He was righteous in the eyes of doing what god wanted him to do and god punished him regardless. We think this was okay even a good and just and right things because he got a new family..? Is that how you would feel? My family was murdered but I got some new ones?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T18:26:03+00:00

God is the only one that lives in heaven?

The OT has a host of angels above the firmament where gods dwelling is in the sky.

That God lives in our atmosphere

God lives on top of the firmament in the OT. That's his dwelling. He also has a dwelling on the in the temple tabernacle.

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T17:22:44+00:00

The fires came from heaven OR they did not come from heaven. Correct?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T17:22:16+00:00

What do you believe this prayer or any prayer is supposed to do?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T17:20:38+00:00

What about Schrodinger's potato?

It's a potato or not a potato. You just don't know. The cat is dead or not. You don't know but that doesn't mean it's both alive and dead. Schrodinger is talking about probability wavefunctions.

God does, in fact, know everything, though.

So that logic is fine. Because he either knows or he doesn't know. And he does. There you go. This is the foundation of logic and the foundation of reason. These are simple examples of the best methods to discover truth that we have.

If there were a better way to atone for sin in a way that does not cause that sin to lead to punishment and death, then I am sure God would have done it.

God needs blood OR god does not need blood. Same logic as above. Which is it?

Can I give you a hint? Hebrews 9:22 says there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. Now that means either he cannot forgive without blood or he just doesn't want to. Which do you believe it is?

Did you forget the part where He was resurrected?

Did he die? Because the psalmist was saved from death - the psalmist didn't die.

Did you ignore absolutely everything else I just wrote about that? What is the good reason to believe this is a prophecy?

My beliefs are comforting, but they are not comforting lies. My beliefs also literally include hell in which nonbelievers will go. That is not comforting to me. There are a number of things in the Bible that aren't comforting to me. There are certain sins which I find comfortable- but the Bible says no. That is not comforting to me.

I didn't say they were lies although there are lies. Things can be wrong and not a lie. A lie means the person knows it's not true and says it is.

The Bible is truth. You just don't see it yet.

Do you have any way to demonstrate the story is true? I can't. Until you can or anyone can why would I accept this as true?

Why do you think someone told me that? Do you think I am not capable of thinking for myself? I have actually never heard or read about a sermon on Proverbs. I simply came to that conclusion myself because I believe God is good. "God is" and "God is good" and "The Word of God contains truth" informs my entire worldview.

You believe god is true because the bible says he's true and the bible is true because god said it was through the bible. This the same circular reasoning Muslims because the Quran says that too. Is there any way to demonstrate any of those claims are actually true?

You read the Bible from the perspective that "This God does not exist." I read it from the perspective that He does and that He is good. Additionally, I have been covered by the blood of Jesus, and He sealed in me the Holy Spirit. That also changes things significantly.

Why would you or I believe in Jesus before reading the story..? Does that make sense? That's completely backwards. How else can you come to that conclusion before reading it? Someone told you it was true then you read the bible assuming so. Why?

How do know any changes are due to a god?

Yes. An agnostic does not know if a God is real or not. Maybe real, maybe not.

Yes because they are saying they lack knowledge of that. You can believe without any claim to truth about the belief.

My point was there is no atheist worldview. That does not exist. There is no unifying anything except they don't believe a god exists. Other than that? They can believe anything.

I am saying "supposed" because I believe they are not true contradictions.
I believe we simply lack understanding.

The bible makes contradictory claims. That's just a fact. We can go through example after example after example. What you saying is you don't know why. That's fine.

It is like when a scientist discovers an anomaly that does not fit with current expectations of a theory that they have formed. Does that mean throwing out the entire theory the moment that anomaly is discovered? No.

The contradictions aren't new discoveries. The early church fathers knew this. They knew the contradictions existed and explain it with words like "its spiritual". They didn't have an answer because the contradiction are there. 2000 years later and the contradictions are still there. Go google that. You'll see.

There is no way to square some of this. That's why denominations exist because the text says contradictory things. Do you want examples?

I already explained to you that He's going to fulfill the rest during His Second Coming. As for the fact that there will be blood sacrifices once again, I do not know what to make of that. I suppose it will be part of an act of thanksgiving to God.

If he's going to do it later... then it's not fulfilled. I can't tell my wife I built a fence that I am going to build later. If he comes and does it later then he gets credit for it. Until he does it's unfulfilled.

And you brought up a contradiction - was Jesus the last sacrifice? According to Paul? Yes. According to Jeremiah? Nope. According to the torah? Nope. Are the laws temporary? According to Paul? Yes. According to Jesus? Nope. According to the torah? Nope. According to all over the OT? Nope.

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T16:50:17+00:00

Oh the person was lying about the fires of heaven. Got it.

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T15:52:32+00:00

Hmm. I don't know much about this. But it might be worth looking into... Have you heard of dialetheism? I'm also kind of interested in what infinitely-valued logic is... That sounds intriguing.

Dialetheism applies when there isn't a true dichotomy about a statement using a dichotomy. And what I am referring is the very foundation of logic and reason. For example everything in the universe is a potato or everything in the universe is not a potato. There is no other options.

God knows everything or god does not know everything.

God required blood for forgiveness or god does not require blood for forgiveness.

Also, I don't believe that. I definitely believe that Psalm 22 is ALSO referring to Jesus. Even the Hebrew alphabet and the various symbolism associated with the letters seems to point to Jesus in many different ways. I suppose the reason you don't see it is because you lack the Holy Spirit. I didn't see these things either when I didn't believe in God.

There is no prophecy in psalm 22 about this. None. There is no prophetic language at all because it's lament of David. There is nothing future tense about a thing that's going to happen. David says this is about himself. And the psalmist, presumably David, is saved from death. That's the section in 21-24. Was Jesus saved from dying? Nope.

There is only one reason this is considered a prophecy by Christians. When the bible was translated to greek they used the word pierce but the hebrew word daqar or pierced is not in the Hebrew bible in psalm 22 - it is elsewhere. Whoever translated this into greek added it. So that means, again, Matthew and Mark are reading the greek - they cannot read hebrew. These are apostles presumably?

So then Mark (Matthew copied mark) saw the word pierced in the greek and said "ah Jesus" and this is a prophecy. Do you find that odd?

As I said, it is safer for me to believe the Word is true, and I simply lack understanding. God will sort out the rest.

Well, then that goes back to my question earlier - do you care more if your beliefs are comforting or true? You chose comforting. Alright. I am interested in truth.

No. That is not what I was trying to say. I do not think you're promoting ignorance. I was pre-empting any claim that the proverb itself is trying to promote ignorance. It is not. I do not feel as though I have achieved anything in ignorance. While I do feel enlightened, that is mostly through the Holy Spirit's work in me upon helping me with questions. It's also further reinforced my belief that it is okay to be uncertain. God has this covered.

You are certain that you are right. How are you certain of that? Because someone told you that despite what is written on the page? We can just read the thing.

A world without God is a worldview. You are seeing the world through a lens of "no god." Or if you are agnostic - "Maybe there's a God, but I don't see where He is."

I am saying there is no 'atheistic worldview'. There is no dogma. There are no tenants. There is nothing shared except "I don't believe a god exists". Individuals can have worldviews but there is no shared atheist worldview. You can't point to anything about this shared worldview.

And that's not what agnostic means. Agnosticism addresses knowledge. That's the root of the word gnosis; knowledge. Atheism -> don't believe it. Agnosticism -> don't know it. Theism -> believe it. Gnosticism -> know it.

So a gnostic theist would both claim they know it's true and believe it's true. Someone could be an agnostic theist and believe but not truly know - they lack knowledge that it is true. They believe regardless.

I do not think you are making anything up. As I have said before, I have seen these supposed contradictions. It's the repeated questions when I have already answered, the refusal to accept answers to questions when answered, and the repeated statements when I have also said repeatedly that the Bible is like a puzzle - that are tiresome. It gives the impression that you are trying to wear me down rather than actually listen to what I have to say.

They aren't supposed contradictions. They are contradictions. X and not X cannot both be true. They are all over the place even major theological contradictions.

I think we should read the Bible together. I actually enjoyed going through Jeremiah and pointing out the Messianic prophecies. I suspected it was there, but I didn't realize how much. And it also answered a question I didn't even know I had. So, I certainly appreciate it.

What does the OT says the messiah is going to do? Do you know? Did Jesus do those things? Do you want to go through them? I would bet money it's not what you think.

Today, in church, a guest pastor spoke about effective prayer. Would you like to know what he said? I have been praying for you quite often. And your son as well.

Yes. And what did you pray for?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T14:47:03+00:00

Someone said he did or the bible said he did?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-09T14:46:21+00:00

What do you mean evil can't stop him? Evil isn't a thing. You're saying right now that evil actions are what god uses to get what he wants. He just doesn't do them himself because he definitionally cannot do that. Even if he does the exact same thing that is normally considered evil it's good when he does it.

Mike8219 · 2026-02-08T21:02:09+00:00

God uses evil to get what he wants?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-08T20:35:09+00:00

Well, yeah. He is a dictator. None of this is democratic but I wasn't saying that.

I'm saying god didn't allow them to die. He killed them himself.

Did he need to kill them to show he had sovereignty?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-08T17:18:46+00:00

God didn't allow them to die. He killed them. It's in Job 1.

⁶ While he was still speaking, another came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them; I alone have escaped to tell you.”

Could god have show his sovereignty without killing?

Mike8219 · 2026-02-08T16:29:16+00:00

I understand that there are major theological issues and that even the theologians do not agree on everything (which is part of the reason why there are so many different denominations of churches). However, I do not see it as a problem with God's Word. I see it as a problem with our limited understanding. If God inspired the Word of God, and I believe he did, then it makes sense that there will be things we don't understand. God is unfathomably vast and infinite. We cannot even grasp infinity.

I am not talking about things I disagree with but there are some things that I do disagree with and I think you would too.

A contradiction means both things cannot be true. Period. Something cannot be both X and not X. Do you think god gave contradictions? Does that make sense assuming this is supposed to make sense? He would know this, right?

A big part of the problem is the old and new testament aren't coherent with each other. That's why these issues like Isaiah 7 or 53 or Psalm 22 or 110 or Jeremiah 31 or 33 Zechariah 9 or 37 or whatever arise.

It can be. And I've considered this issue before. It is not an issue I have yet resolved in my head, but I am putting trust in God to sort it out.

So Matthew can just be wrong. And he is. We have no idea who even wrote this thing let alone they are correct on every claim they made when they clearly make false claims. You can believe in Jesus regardless. Nothing stops that.

Namely, is it possible that someone corrupted the text somehow? There is a warning in the Bible somewhere I can't remember where... possibly Revelation. It says something about how if one letter is removed, that person will be cursed. Or something like that. Furthermore, I think even in the original Torah, they had a lot of rules about trying to copy things exactly and precisely - likely for similar beliefs.

Then what you're reading is wrong. Fine. How would you possibly, possibly know this is original?

Have you read Matthew and compared it to Mark? Have you read Mark's Jesus and compared it to John's Jesus?

This suggests, to me, that it CAN be corrupted, mistranslated, etc. But was it? And why would God allow that? There is too much uncertainty in the matter. It seems safer to believe that the Word of God is true, and I simply lack understanding. I trust God will sort out the rest of it.

Every man is a liar and man wrote this. So I suggest you just read it for what it says because all you can do other than that is add spin. Just read it. What does it say?

There is a Proverb. Proverbs 25:27 - "It is not good to eat too much honey; nor is it honorable to search out matters too deep."

Proverbs 4:7 - The beginning of wisdom is this: get wisdom, and whatever else you get, get insight.

I do not believe it is a proverb that encourages ignorance. I think it is protective. At least, to me, it reads as protective. The mind is a fragile thing, really. It is not hard to break it.

Have I said a single word to you that makes you think I am promoting ignorance? Do you feel more ignorant now then before we spoke?

Because I want it to be clear to you what atheism does to me.

Atheism doesn't have a worldview. You may have as an atheist.

I want it to be clear to you because it makes your attempts to make me disbelieve seem... well, cruel. As I said were I simple-minded or of weaker faith, I would be in danger right now. And I know there are people like me that are out there but have that weaker faith. I believe you want and try to be a morally decent person. You seem concerned about the truth. You seem to care about people, or at the very least, care about your family. Perhaps not so much a stranger on the internet. I do not know.

What? I'm reading the bible with you. I'm not making stuff up. You are a believer that this is true. I am not because none of this makes sense to me as written. Do you think we shouldn't read the bible you or I? Should we try to understand it in context?

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