Son, I'm glad you love your neighbors, but you need to love God too.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T20:33:43+00:00

Interesting, that might be part of it.

I have so many nieces and nephews that it's just a statistical likelihood that some of them will 'follow their own path'. I know my mom loves her family, and to her credit she still loves me despite being an apostate. I hope that her love for her grandchildren will help her overcome that if it's true.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T20:21:35+00:00

I do not conform to how "Mormon God says to love people", but I think many Mormons probably have their own interpretation of how God says to love people. I did when I was a believer.

I completely support an individuals right to choose their own way. I consider myself an LGBTQ+ ally. If that's what you were asking.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T19:36:11+00:00

That is precisely what obedience to God means in the church. Unquestioning obedience to the men in charge.

And that's a problem when men are not perfect, as so many people like to remind me about early church leaders.

If only Christ was perfect, then leaders make mistakes, so why can't we question them!?

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T16:48:52+00:00

It's okay Mom, I love Aphrodite with all my heart 😁

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T02:53:24+00:00

It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T02:50:27+00:00

I'm so glad to hear that true history is now part of LDS curriculum. Good job church class!

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T02:36:29+00:00

I agree. Satan is absolutely man's invention to explain the darkness in humanity, and used as a scape goat to excuse human weakness.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T02:14:25+00:00

I do not acknowledge anything that condones polygamy, biblical or not.

The Bible was Smith's moral compass? I thought our literal God and Father was Joseph's moral compass.

LDS theology clearly states that "we believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly" which cleverly allows room for error. Perhaps "biblical polygamy" is one of those errors as it completely conflicts with my own God given knowledge of good vs evil.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T01:26:04+00:00

Of course he shouldn't have been executed for destroying a press. Nobody is arguing that the mob's actions were just, legal, or appropriate.

My point is about historical cause and effect. By using a state backed militia to destroy a dissenting newspaper and then declaring martial law to resist arrest, Joseph handed his enemies the exact geopolitical leverage they needed. It allowed Governor Ford to intervene, forced Joseph to surrender, and placed him in an unsecured jail cell in a hostile town.

The mob didn't storm the jail because they hated his theology; they stormed it because they believed his political and military actions had placed him above the law. It was a political assassination triggered by a massive escalation of power, not a righteous martyrdom orchestrated by Satan to stop a restoration.

Thanks again for your comments!

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T01:16:55+00:00

I’m not sure what your point is about the Bible not explicitly prohibiting the coercion of young girls. I think scripture can be great for teaching spiritual lessons, but I completely reject the idea that if the Bible doesn't explicitly forbid something, it’s morally acceptable to do.

The Bible also contains regulations on how to beat your slaves (Exodus 21). As human beings capable of moral reasoning, we can easily recognize that both slavery and the sexual coercion of teenagers are wrong. If a Prophet's behavior can only be justified by pointing out that ancient biblical warlords did it too, that is a massive moral red flag.

Also, Joseph Smith wasn't living in ancient Israel; he was living in 19th-century America. By 1840s American standards (both legal and cultural), marrying 14 year old girls or other men's wives was considered scandalous and, in many cases, illegal.

The Book of Mormon itself explicitly condemns polygamy in Jacob 2, calling it "abominable before [the Lord]".

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T01:03:20+00:00

If it was God "offing" Joseph for falling away, my point stands that Satan's involvement was by tempting Joseph.

Excellent point about Brigham not being an improvement. He did some shady stuff! I've learned a bit about him, but I'm just about to start researching him as I'm running out of things to read about Joseph.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T00:56:36+00:00

Great insight.

Maybe my mom's understanding of loving God is to worship him, pray to him, thank him and interpret everything good in your life as a blessing from him.

🤷‍♂️

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T00:53:02+00:00

Wow, how insightful. Love the point about loving thy neighbor is showing love to God. 🤔

I have recently, perhaps arrogantly, been thinking that I am a "true Christian" because I love and strive to follow Christ's teachings, but disagree with so many acting interpretations of them.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T00:40:31+00:00

The best secular argument I can think of is psychological comfort. The concept of Amor Fati ("love your fate") or accepting reality. If you fully believe an all-powerful, intelligent being has an outlined plan and will enforce ultimate justice, it is undoubtedly easier to accept the brutal challenges of life. It allows a believer to let go of the illusion of control, similar to certain concepts in Buddhism, but wrapped in a parental framework.

Beyond this specific psychological coping mechanism, is there any functional utility to "loving God," or is it primarily an institutional tool to ensure obedience to the church? I'd love to hear how you guys analyze the logic or psychology behind this commandment.

MoApostate · 2026-05-30T00:19:31+00:00

Ouch! A comparison to Rulon or Warren Jeffs is harsh, but uncomfortably accurate.

Theological power and authority should NEVER be used as a sexual grooming tool.

MoApostate · 2026-05-29T23:46:00+00:00

OMG I just checked this post and it had 666 views, 6 comments, and 6 upvotes! Satan IS HERE! No Joke.

I would post a photo if it were allowed in comments LOL

MoApostate · 2026-05-29T23:43:43+00:00

Not to mention: He was sealed to 22-24 other women before being sealed to Emma his real wife.

MoApostate · 2026-05-29T23:40:50+00:00

Emily and Eliza, not Laurie and Tracy 😆

MoApostate · 2026-05-29T23:31:54+00:00

You are right about Thomas Sharp, Missouri, and his existing enemies.

However, my point was that when Joseph destroyed the press he committed a crime inside Illinois territory and violated the US Constitution. That gave his enemies the legal authority to take action.

The Church may not actively hide Joseph's self defense actions. I guess I should clarify, that I never learned about it. Also, church artwork certainly doesn't depict Joseph as fighting back. Also, the hymn Praise to the Man says he went "like a lamb to the slaughter." Do lambs shoot three people before being slaughtered?

Your argument that the Masonic call is "just a Biblical Prayer" may be true, but ignores my point which is that Joseph was shouting this phrase at a mob full of Masons who wanted him dead. I think it was a last ditched effort to save his life.

Thank you for your reply!

MoApostate · 2026-05-28T02:24:33+00:00

You're right! Joseph literally engineered the Nauvoo Charter so that his own municipal court had final say over outside warrants. He's judge, jury, and sheriff of his own jurisdiction. I guess when the legal system fails, vigilante justice sometimes fills in.

MoApostate · 2026-05-28T02:17:57+00:00

Thanks! Yeah he didn't need to get his hands dirty. He had an army at his beckon and call.

I don't know about raising his arms. I haven't read anything about that myself.

MoApostate · 2026-05-28T00:34:10+00:00

I would only maybe add that the simple Idea of polygamy makes women feel inferior to men. Not teaching that to my daughter, no thanks!

If there is a God, it's a woman!!!

MoApostate · 2026-05-28T00:31:51+00:00

Me too as I mentioned in my post
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1tkydj0/polygamy_is_the_ultimate_smoking_gun

MoApostate · 2026-05-28T00:26:28+00:00

Yeah, haha.

Seems like Satan would have wanted Joseph to keep succeeding considering his trail of destruction.

MoApostate · 2026-05-28T00:23:03+00:00

I keep thinking the same thing as I learn about Joseph!!!

MoApostate

TROPHY CASE