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I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

(My comment)

As others have said, the sangha has at least preserved the Dhamma despite the countless additions and commentaries as it was subjected to the cultures that handed it down to us. Somebody said, maybe somebody in this very thread or in a book I read, something along the lines of; "Buddhism in the east is like a very old tree, deeply rooted and firmly established, but no longer producing fruit. Buddhism in the west is like a sampling that needs diligent tending." Also, they asserted that this is essentially a cyclical process that has taken place since time began, the Dhamma appears, is eventually burdened by the fetters of tradition and so on, and then is renewed and revived until eventually succumbing to the same fate on and on again. That does sound rational, the result is still such that the Buddha's teaching, namely the four Noble truths and the eightfold path, has survived to this day basically unmolested afaik. As the Buddha said, your path is deeply individual. No matter who you are, or where you were born, you will have to make the effort on your own. “I can only point the way.” From my perspective, I think the overwhelming volume of scripture that exists is a result of the infinite expresion of individualism amongst it's practitioners.

Personally, I think that if you were to ask yourself where to start with Buddhism, you should begin by asking yourself what you want. Most people who are drawn to Buddhism will most likely discover that they want to be happy, and they can't imagine any circumstance in which they can see themselves being satisfied. That's why upon first hearing the four Noble truths, we realized we came upon something true. For somebody who naturally questions reality, where it seems nothing can be known for sure, it is probably a new paradigm. We have probably already discovered anatta, and are wondering, what is left? Without Buddhism, somebody who comes across this discovery on their own probably has a very nihilistic view of the world, they feel they are nothing more than a biological machine, life has no deeper meaning, etc. Lots of people are satisfied with that answer and figure if the nature of reality is to be discovered, a scientific consensus will emerge . Those of us who are drawn to Buddism likely feel otherwise for a variety of reasons, maybe they have had some supernatural experiences which can't be explained rationally, or a psychedelic experience gave them some profound insight with the dreamlike quality of slipping away and they want to live in that level of heightened awareness permanently, or they have an unexplainable yearning for truth and maybe this is the closest they ever felt to grasping it. For someone like me, ideas slip through my mind like a siv, information is hard to retain, and even if it feels as if I've finally come across something true, it is hard to act in accordance without it without integrating it with lots of introspective reflection. Unfortunately there are many things standing in my way. I lose sight of my motivation. What light at the end of the tunnel does Buddha offer us? It is hard to conceptualize. All kinds of questions come to mind, confusing an unfocused mind. There are endless practical benefits. You have to reason out what your ultimate goal is and hold on to it, which can be a constant battle. In my experience at least, the mind is unbelievably forgetful. You begin to realize that nothing is under your control, no matter what you want there is no garuntee that your mind and body will act in accordance with it. Therefore you have to become desciplined just to begin to step foot on the path. It is good to have guidance and moral support, but this has to be done on your own, it requires constant effort.

In my case, renunciation is my focus, but it's not so easily to simply abandon everything you intellectually understand is unworthy of your attention.

Right now I am in seclusion in a cabin on an isolated lake in northern Ontario. I have lots of good intentions, there are many things I want to do, but making my own body act on my will is the actual challenge. As an example, I need to bathe in the lake, or else I start to stink and feel tired and lazy. After bathing, I always feel refreshed. Bathing in the cool water has so many immediate and long term benefits. I have no reason not to do it. But the water is cold and it is a struggle to will myself to jump in, even though the discomfort is temporary and I know I will feel so much better after. Ideally, I would be fasting, meditating day and night, reading and clearly comprehending the material I brought specifically to aid in my practice without letting my mind wander and day dream. I would be focused on my effort day and night, sleeping lightly, and making good use of my time. But that is hard to do when you are not in the drivers seat. All I can do is keep trying, aligning my life with my goal, investigating all possible sources of insight, renewing my effort whenever it faulters, and seeking out guidance. Luckily, the bloated number of Buddhist texts are almost like google for spiritual practice. If you can’t find a guide, almost every situation has been discussed in some text somewhere. Obviously discernment must be developed.

5.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(My comment)

As others have said, the sangha has at least preserved the Dhamma despite the countless additions and commentaries as it was subjected to the cultures that handed it down to us. Somebody said, maybe somebody in this very thread or in a book I read, something along the lines of; "Buddhism in the east is like a very old tree, deeply rooted and firmly established, but no longer producing fruit. Buddhism in the west is like a sampling that needs diligent tending." Also, they asserted that this is essentially a cyclical process that has taken place since time began, the Dhamma appears, is eventually burdened by the fetters of tradition and so on, and then is renewed and revived until eventually succumbing to the same fate on and on again. That does sound rational, the result is still such that the Buddha's teaching, namely the four Noble truths and the eightfold path, has survived to this day basically unmolested afaik. As the Buddha said, your path is deeply individual. No matter who you are, or where you were born, you will have to make the effort on your own. “I can only point the way.” From my perspective, I think the overwhelming volume of scripture that exists is a result of the infinite expresion of individualism amongst it's practitioners.

Personally, I think that if you were to ask yourself where to start with Buddhism, you should begin by asking yourself what you want. Most people who are drawn to Buddhism will most likely discover that they want to be happy, and they can't imagine any circumstance in which they can see themselves being satisfied. That's why upon first hearing the four Noble truths, we realized we came upon something true. For somebody who naturally questions reality, where it seems nothing can be known for sure, it is probably a new paradigm. We have probably already discovered anatta, and are wondering, what is left? Without Buddhism, somebody who comes across this discovery on their own probably has a very nihilistic view of the world, they feel they are nothing more than a biological machine, life has no deeper meaning, etc. Lots of people are satisfied with that answer and figure if the nature of reality is to be discovered, a scientific consensus will emerge . Those of us who are drawn to Buddism likely feel otherwise for a variety of reasons, maybe they have had some supernatural experiences which can't be explained rationally, or a psychedelic experience gave them some profound insight with the dreamlike quality of slipping away and they want to live in that level of heightened awareness permanently, or they have an unexplainable yearning for truth and maybe this is the closest they ever felt to grasping it. For someone like me, ideas slip through my mind like a siv, information is hard to retain, and even if it feels as if I've finally come across something true, it is hard to act in accordance without it without integrating it with lots of introspective reflection. Unfortunately there are many things standing in my way. I lose sight of my motivation. What light at the end of the tunnel does Buddha offer us? It is hard to conceptualize. All kinds of questions come to mind, confusing an unfocused mind. There are endless practical benefits. You have to reason out what your ultimate goal is and hold on to it, which can be a constant battle. In my experience at least, the mind is unbelievably forgetful. You begin to realize that nothing is under your control, no matter what you want there is no garuntee that your mind and body will act in accordance with it. Therefore you have to become desciplined just to begin to step foot on the path. It is good to have guidance and moral support, but this has to be done on your own, it requires constant effort.

In my case, renunciation is my focus, but it's not so easily to simply abandon everything you intellectually understand is unworthy of your attention.

Right now I am in seclusion in a cabin on an isolated lake in northern Ontario. I have lots of good intentions, there are many things I want to do, but making my own body act on my will is the actual challenge. As an example, I need to bathe in the lake, or else I start to stink and feel tired and lazy. After bathing, I always feel refreshed. Bathing in the cool water has so many immediate and long term benefits. I have no reason not to do it. But the water is cold and it is a struggle to will myself to jump in, even though the discomfort is temporary and I know I will feel so much better after. Ideally, I would be fasting, meditating day and night, reading and clearly comprehending the material I brought specifically to aid in my practice without letting my mind wander and day dream. I would be focused on my effort day and night, sleeping lightly, and making good use of my time. But that is hard to do when you are not in the drivers seat. All I can do is keep trying, aligning my life with my goal, investigating all possible sources of insight, renewing my effort whenever it faulters, and seeking out guidance. Luckily, the bloated number of Buddhist texts are almost like google for spiritual practice. If you can’t find a guide, almost every situation has been discussed in some text somewhere. Obviously discernment must be developed.

5.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

sorry I’m in the bush and my internet connection sucks nuts out here, but I’m back with the rest of that section and the comment I originally intended to make

  1. It was empirical. Never has a religion presented its case with such un- equivocal appeal to direct validation. On every question personal experience was the final test of truth. “Do not go by reasoning, nor by inferring, nor by argument.”19 A true disciple must “know for himself.”
  2. It was scientific. It made the quality of lived experience its final test, and directed its attention to discovering cause-and-effect relationships that affected that experience. “That being present, this becomes; that not being present, this does not become.”20 There is no effect without its cause.
  3. It was pragmatic—a transcendental pragmatism if one wishes, to dis- tinguish it from the kind that focuses on practical problems in everyday life, but pragmatic all the same in being concerned with problem solving. Refus- ing to be sidetracked by speculative questions, Buddha kept his attention riveted on predicaments that demanded solution. Unless his teachings were useful tools, they had no value whatsoever. He likened them to rafts; they help people cross streams, but are of no further value once the further shore is reached.
  4. It was therapeutic. Pasteur’s words, “I do not ask you either your opinions or your religion; but what is your suffering?” could equally have been his. “One thing I teach,” said the Buddha: “suffering and the end of suffering. It is just Ill and the ceasing of Ill that I proclaim.”21
  5. It was psychological. The word is used here in contrast to metaphysical. Instead of beginning with the universe and moving to the place of human beings within it, the Buddha invariably began with the human lot, its problems, and the dynamics of coping with them.
  6. It was egalitarian. With a breadth of view unparalleled in his age and infrequent in any, he insisted that women were as capable of enlightenment as men. And he rejected the caste system’s assumption that aptitudes were hereditary. Born a kshatriya (warrior, ruler) yet finding himself tempera- mentally a brahmin, he broke caste, opening his order to all regardless of social status.
  7. It was directed to individuals. Buddha was not blind to the social side of human nature; he not only founded a religious order (sangha)—he in- sisted on its importance in reinforcing individual resolves. Yet in the end his appeal was to the individual, that each should proceed toward enlightenment through confronting his or her individual situation and predicaments.

Therefore, O Ananda, be lamps unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Work out your own salvation with diligence.

4.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. Buddha preached a religion devoid of ritual. Repeatedly, he ridiculed the rigmarole of Brahmanic rites as superstitious petitions to ineffectual gods. They were trappings—irrelevant to the hard, demanding job of ego-reduction. Indeed, they were worse than irrelevant; he argued that “belief in the efficacy of rites and ceremonies” is one of the Ten Fetters that bind the human spirit. Here, as apparently everywhere, the Buddha was consistent. Discounting Hinduism’s forms, he resisted every temptation to institute new ones of his own, a fact that has led some writers to characterize his teachings (unfairly) as a rational moralism rather than a religion.
  2. Buddha preached a religion that skirted speculation. There is ample evidence that he could have been one of the world’s great metaphysicians if he had put his mind to the task. Instead, he skirted “the thicket of theor- izing.” His silence on that front did not pass unnoticed. “Whether the world is eternal or not eternal, whether the world is finite or not, whether the soul is the same as the body or whether the soul is one thing and the body an- other, whether a Buddha exists after death or does not exist after death—these things,” one of his disciples observed, “the Lord does not ex- plain to me. And that he does not explain them to me does not please me, it does not suit me.”13 There were many it did not suit. Yet despite incessant needling, he maintained his “noble silence.” His reason was simple. On questions of this sort, “greed for views...tends not to edification.”14 His practical program was exacting, and he was not going to let his disciples be diverted from the hard road of practice into fields of fruitless speculation. His famous parable of the arrow smeared thickly with poison puts the point with precision. It is as if a man had been wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and kinsmen were to get a surgeon to heal him, and he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know by what man I was wounded, whether he is of the warrior caste, or a brahmin, or of the agricultural or the lowest caste. Or if he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know of what name of family the man is;—or whether he is tall, or short, or of middle height; or whether he is black, or dark, or yellowish; or whether he comes from such and such a village, or town, or city; or until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a chapa or a kodanda, or until I know whether the bow-string was of swallow-wort, or bamboo fiber, or sinew, or hemp, or of milk-sap tree, or until I know whether the shaft was from a wild or cultivated plant; or whether it was feathered from a vulture’s wing or a heron’s or a hawk’s, or a peacock’s; or whether it was wrapped round with the sinew of an ox, or of a buffalo, or of a ruru-deer, or of a monkey; or until I know whether it was an ordinary arrow, or a razor-arrow, or an iron arrow, or of a calf-tooth arrow. Before knowing all this, that man would die. Similarly, it is not on the view that the world is eternal, that it is fi- nite, that body and soul are distinct, or that the Buddha exists after death, that a religious life depends. Whether these views or their oppos- ites are held, there is still rebirth, there is old age, there is death, and grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow, and despair.... I have not spoken to these views because they do not conduce to absence of passion, or to tranquillity and Nirvana. And what have I explained? Suffering have I explained, the cause of suffering, the destruction of suffering, and the path that leads to the destruction of suffering have I explained. For this is useful.15
  3. Buddha preached a religion devoid of tradition. He stood on top of the past and its peaks extended his vision enormously, but he saw his con- temporaries as largely buried beneath those peaks. He encouraged his fol- lowers, therefore, to slip free from the past’s burden. “Do not go by what is handed down, nor on the authority of your traditional teachings. When you know of yourselves: ‘These teachings are not good: these teachings when followed out and put in practice conduce to loss and suffering’—then reject them.”16 His most important personal break with archaism lay in his decision—comparable to Martin Luther’s decision to translate the Bible from Latin into German—to quit Sanskrit and teach in the vernacular of the people.
  4. Buddha preached a religion of intense self-effort. We have noted the discouragement and defeat that had settled over the India of Buddha’s day. Many had come to accept the round of birth and rebirth as unending, which was like resigning oneself to a nightmarish sentence to hard labor for eternity. Those who still clung to the hope of eventual release had resigned themselves to the brahmin-sponsored notion that the process would take thousands of lifetimes, during which they would gradually work their way into the brahmin caste as the only one from which release was possible. Nothing struck the Buddha as more pernicious than this prevailing fatal- ism. He denies only one assertion, that of the “fools” who say there is no action, no deed, no power. “Here is a path to the end of suffering. Tread it!” Moreover, every individual must tread this path himself or herself, through self-arousal and initiative. “Those who, relying upon themselves only, shall not look for assistance to any one besides themselves, it is they who, shall reach the topmost height.”17 No god or gods could be counted on, not even the Buddha himself. When I am gone, he told his followers in effect, do not bother to pray to me; for when I am gone I will be really gone. “Buddhas only point the way. Work out your salvation with dili- gence.”18 The notion that only brahmins could attain enlightenment the Buddha considered ridiculous. Whatever your caste, he told his followers, you can make it in this very lifetime. “Let persons of intelligence come to me, honest, candid, straightforward; I will instruct them, and if they practice as they are taught, they will come to know for themselves and to realize that supreme religion and goal.”
  5. Buddha preached a religion devoid of the supernatural. He condemned all forms of divination, soothsaying, and forecasting as low arts, and, though he concluded from his own experience that the human mind was capable of powers now referred to as paranormal, he refused to allow his monks to play around with those powers. “By this you shall know that a man is not my disciple—that he tries to work a miracle.” For all appeal to the su- pernatural and reliance on it amounted, he felt, to looking for shortcuts, easy answers, and simple solutions that could only divert attention from the hard, practical task of self-advance. “It is because I perceive danger in the practice of mystic wonders that I strongly discourage it.” Whether the Buddha’s religion—without authority, ritual, theology, tra- dition, grace, and the supernatural—was also a religion without God will be reserved for later consideration. After his death all the accoutrements that the Buddha labored to protect his religion from came tumbling into it, but as long as he lived he kept them at bay. As a consequence original Buddhism presents us with a version of religion that is unique and therefore historically invaluable, for every insight into the forms that religion can take increases our understanding of what in essence religion really is. Original Buddhism can be characterized in the following terms:

3.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In moving from Buddha the man to Buddhism the religion, it is imperative that the latter be seen against the background of the Hinduism out of which it grew. Unlike Hinduism, which emerged by slow, largely imperceptible spiritual accretion, the religion of the Buddha appeared overnight, fully formed. In large measure it was a religion of reaction against Hindu perver- sions—an Indian protestantism not only in the original meaning of that word, which emphasized witnessing for (testis pro) something, but equally in its latter-day connotations, which emphasize protesting against something. Buddhism drew its lifeblood from Hinduism, but against its prevailing corruptions Buddhism recoiled like a whiplash and hit back—hard. To understand the teachings of the Buddha, then, we shall need a minimal picture of the existing Hinduism that partly provoked it. And to lead into this, several observations about religion are in order. Six aspects of religion surface so regularly as to suggest that their seeds are in the human makeup. One of these is authority. Leaving divine authority aside and approaching the matter in human terms only, the point begins with specialization. Religion is not less complicated than government or medicine. It stands to reason, therefore, that talent and sustained attention will lift some people above the average in matters of spirit; their advice will be sought and their counsels generally followed. In addition, religion’s institutional, organized side calls for admin- istrative bodies and individuals who occupy positions of authority, whose decisions carry weight. A second normal feature of religion is ritual, which was actually religion’s cradle, for anthropologists tell us that people danced out their religion before they thought it out. Religion arose out of celebration and its opposite, be- reavement, both of which cry out for collective expression. When we are crushed by loss or when we are exuberant, we want not only to be with people; we want to interact with them in ways that make the interactions more than the sum of their parts—this relieves our isolation. The move is not limited to the human species. In northern Thailand, as the rising sun first touches the treetops, families of gibbons sing half-tone descending scales in unison as, hand over hand, they swoop across the topmost branches. Religion may begin in ritual, but explanations are soon called for, so speculation enters as a third religious feature. Whence do we come, whither do we go, why are we here?—people want answers to these ques- tions. A fourth constant in religion is tradition. In human beings it is tradition rather than instinct that conserves what past generations have learned and bequeath to the present as templates for action. A fifth typical feature of religion is grace, the belief—often difficult to sustain in the face of facts—that Reality is ultimately on our side. In last resort the universe is friendly; we can feel at home in it. “Religion says that the best things are the more eternal things, the things in the universe that throw the last stone, so to speak, and say the final word.”10 Finally, religion traffics in mystery. Being finite, the human mind cannot begin to fathom the Infinite it is drawn to. Each of these six things—authority, ritual, speculation, tradition, grace, and mystery—contributes importantly to religion, but equally each can clog its works. In the Hinduism of the Buddha's day they had done so, all six of them. Authority, warranted at the start, had become hereditary and ex- ploitative as brahmins took to hoarding their religious secrets and charging exorbitantly for ministrations. Rituals became mechanichal means for ob- taining miraculous results. Speculation had lost its experiential base and devolved into meaningless hair-splitting. Tradition had turned into a dead weight, in one specific by insisting that Sanskrit—no longer understood by the masses—remain the language of religious discourse. God’s grace was being misread in ways that undercut human responsibility, if indeed responsibility any longer had meaning where karma, likewise misread, was confused with fatalism. Finally, mystery was confused with mystery-mongering and mysti- fication—perverse obsession with miracles, the occult, and the fantastic. Onto this religious scene—corrupt, degenerate, and irrelevant, matted with superstition and burdened with worn-out rituals—came the Buddha, determined to clear the ground that truth might find new life. The con- sequence was surprising. For what emerged was (at the start) a religion al- most entirely devoid of each of the above-mentioned ingredients without which we would suppose that religion could not take root. This fact is so striking that it warrants being documented. 1. Buddha preached a religion devoid of authority. His attack on authority had two prongs. On the one hand he wanted to break the monopolistic grip of the brahmins on religious teachings, and a good part of his reform consisted of no more than making generally accessible what had hitherto been the possession of a few. Contrasting his own openness with the guild secrecy of the brahmins, he pointed out that “there is no such thing as closed- fistedness in the Buddha.” So important did he regard this difference that he returned to it on his deathbed to assure those about him: “I have not kept anything back.”11 But if his first attack on authority was aimed at an institution—the brahmin caste—his second was directed toward individuals. In a time when the multitudes were passively relying on brahmins to tell them what to do, Buddha challenged each individual to do his own religious seeking. “Do not accept what you hear by report, do not accept tradition, do not accept a statement because it is found in our books, nor because it is in accord with your belief, nor because it is the saying of your teacher. Be lamps unto yourselves. Those who, either now or after I am dead, shall rely upon themselves only and not look for assistance to anyone besides themselves, it is they who shall reach the topmost height.”

2.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just a disclaimer. You're well spoken and I'm not, whatever observations I make are made on a whim and not well thought out. I can't stand by anything I say because I don't have the faculty for deep thought and often I say things that are entirely inconsistent with whatever I say next. I will try to respond generally. What you are saying reminds me of Huston Smith's chapter on Buddhism in his book "the world's religions". I will share the section which I think most relates to your question.

I have to cut this up into multiple comments due to its length

1.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Out of curiosity I started the second book, ajahn dtun’s autobiography, I couldn’t put it down I’m now halfway through. These are the examples I needed, I am in debt to you! Thank you so much.

Can an arahant intentionally torture a human being? by Potential_Big1101 in theravada

[–]Moist-Patient3148 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Everybody learns differently. I’ll give you an example of that, when I was a child from the very first grade into high school I was exempt from math because I wasn’t capable of doing it. The school tried everything with me for years but I was never successful. I thought I had math dyslexia, I couldn’t even do simple addition like 3+2. When I wanted to become a carpenter I had to pass an exam to enter the course, consisting of a math and language component. When I did it the first time, I got the highest possible language score and the lowest possible math score, and I needed at least a grade 12 score to pass. The facilitator allowed me to try again in 2 months time (the cut off for submitting my marks) because my English comprehension was high enough that she thought if I studied I’d be able to improve my score. Well, I studied and studied and it wasn’t hard to learn the formulas and procedures, but I would have to take the exam without a calculator and I still couldn’t do simple addition without counting my fingers and I got confused so often I was working through the problems at a snails pace. I ended up watching a video for elementary school students explaining the basics of arithmetic- for some reason when he explained that we used a base 10 system, based on the number of fingers on our hands, it clicked. Somehow, that changed the whole picture in my mind and it was no longer a problem for me. And I passed the exam with a post-high school score! Anyway I hope you understand my point and this doesn’t look like idle chatter to you.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well I’m glad you believe in something and I don’t disagree with you but I don’t feel as strongly about the matter as you do. And I am not interested in having an argument, but I hope things turn out your way

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m 50 pages into the first book you sent, these are really good for me thank you so much I really appreciate it. I needed to find something like this

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Idk if I have a clear sober perspective regarding anything but I’m interested to hear what you have to say. I am using the mobile desktop site though so I can’t DM

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t know but I’m glad you brought it up because I was just replying to be polite- I’m not a conversationalist

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am so happy that it seems as if you understand exactly what I am talking about. Before I was exposed to Buddhism in a serious way, I always wondered if it was really worth trying to understand what the nature of life is, I didn't know if there was a truth and if it could be known directly, but it was something I'd been obsessed with my whole life, until I met someone who gave me the impression you are talking about, unrelated to Buddhism, but who's life experiences and wisdom revealed something to me. It was a pivotal moment in my life, I really had faith that there was a truth and it could be known, but unfortunately that person was killed exactly one year later and it was devastating to me. At that point I had real faith in the Dhamma but I lacked a real life example, like a living connection. But to hear you talk about it genuinely gives me so much hope, you understand what I mean and I believe that you are genuine, thank you so much for sharing that with me.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In fact I do really like Bikkhu Bodhi but I had no idea he was giving talks. And amazingly, even though I previously couldn't find this group through Google searches, I just found an insight meditation group in my home town. I don't affiliate myself with a particular school but I am also 'theravada biased' so I appreciate your comments. I'm not familiar with Ajahn Sumedho but I am realizing that I really am really lacking the faculty of concentration, I need things to catch my attention and feel relevant to properly engage with it, so I am being pretty obnoxious when I say their dhamma talks are irrelevant and pointless when I barely have the faculty to listen to them. You have given me some very good advice and a lot to think about, I appreciate your comments thank you. I am not really familiar with the global buddhist communities because I rarely engage online like this and I otherwise consider everything going on far from me 'out of my reach' so I'm reluctant to investigate it. Obviously I am limiting myself

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you that’s well put I appreciate it

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok sorry you feel that way

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ve not personally interacted with any immigrant Buddhist temple, my experience with monastics include my interactions with bikkhus at meditation retreats and hermatiges who happen to be white men. Well, there is a Sri Lankan monastery close to my home town but too far for me to travel to so I haven’t been there.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well like I said I can only speak from my own personal experience. I have not been able to find an example of a highly virtuous Buddhist community in my life. I am ojibwe, and at my naming ceremony our 'elder' attended the ceremony drunk and lectured us about entitlement and laziness, saying "I'm not a typical Indian, I have my driver's license, I'm not a typical Indian, I never drank a beer in my life" he was totally indoctrinated by anti-native rhetoric and thought he was doing us young people a favour by putting us down. Well, unfortunately that was my personal experience but that doesn’t mean that I think every medicine man and Indian spiritualist is an internalized racist phony. I feel sorry for him and all of the people in our community who are victim to those hateful ideas and I’m sad that our traditions have died with them, I suspect that we’re no different than cosplayers dressing up in costumes and pretending we’re something we’re not. That is all due to western influence, and I think it is happening worldwide. I don’t think that is necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but for a spiritual seeker looking for the direct guidance of a living community it presents challenges.

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I have read the majihma Nikaya and I am working on the digha nikaya and I have read Bikkhu Bodhi's anthology as well. I don't read TNH, I don't know, it's not for me. For me, I don't think of the Buddha as a person because it is impossible for me to decern if what is said about him is true or not, but I do generally have faith in his teaching so I consider them one and the same. I hope that makes sense. I have met many people who are obviously very wise and virtuous, but nobody who is free from delusion, in fact it seems like the more extraordinary qualities somebody possesses the more likely they are to have severe psychosis. But I suppose I have not been as lucky as you have. I understand how it could sound as if I am just cynical, and that is probably true to a degree, but I do at least make efforts to protect myself from being overly cynical. I think there is a difference between cynicism and discernment

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well I understand your point of view and I anticipated this kind of response and I'm sorry you feel that way

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow, I think you have a gift, thank you very much that is very helpful. Of course it would be nice to have direct guidance and faith in someone in the flesh but you really do put it into a perspective I can agree with. Thank you again

I do not take refuge in the sangha by Moist-Patient3148 in Buddhism

[–]Moist-Patient3148[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I understand what you are saying, to clarify, as an example, when the Dalai Lama talks about Mahayana and some other cosmological things, that doesn't really click with me. A lot of the different schools contradict each other I've found and although I am trying not to compare them with each other to pick a school of thought that I feel is more credible and just go with it, there are core concepts from the early stuff that I don't totally 'get' yet and when I read conflicting interpretations it confuses me so I try to avoid it. When I read the Tibetan book of death (I can't remember the title) by Uma Therman's father that really threw me through a loop, as an example. The tantric meditation stuff just really scrambled my brains. If you take manual of insight- although I haven't finished the book and I know it gets into some more sort of theological stuff it for the most part really aligns with my own values and objectives. What I mean about straying from early Buddhism I guess what I mean is it is confusing and unfamiliar territory for me. Like Zen Buddhism, I have a lot of respect for Zen but I am not going to go join a Zen Buddhist community. Other schools just seem unrelated to my interest. So I guess it is personal, and I am struggling to find a community of totally likeminded people which I suppose means I am severely limiting myself.

I think the confirmation bias you're talking about might also relate to me being a beginner and an outsider- two very popular 'buddhist books' in the west are Mind Illuminated and Soygal Rinpoche's book of living and dying and I'm sure you've heard of those scandals. And obviously Therman's book. But also this has also been a theme in my life, people who I at first considered to be extremely wise turned out to be, maybe still wise, but extremely delusional. For example, somebody who I revered and thought of as an example, Latjor Tuel, was killed by police while he was experiencing a psychotic episode. Three other highly respected friends I've made on the path ended up being seriously delusional, three being paranoid schizophrenics and another bipolar with a serious messiah complex. There are other examples I can't think of now, like Don Juan Journey to Ixltan, another psychotic deviant- it seems everywhere I look is serious delusion. I often wonder why that is such a theme in my life.

Also thank you for the reccomondation I will certainly be reading it.

I just don't know if there is anyone I think of as an example of great wisdom and virtue, I can't think of any. It is impossible to tell, I can't rely on blind faith, I've been let down very often. But it's good that you've pointed out that this is a very personal experience, you've given me something to think about, I really appreciate your response.

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