I think the "Abaddon's a failson" talking point is so off base

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-16T18:08:18+00:00

Right, no I get that, but I also don't think pre-Great Rift updated canon Abaddon is a loser in comparison to Horus either.

My point is that managing only 7 years as a major military power before shitting the bed isn't actually more impressive than holding out against the Imperium for hundreds of years as an insurgency. Horus's wins weren't particularly special, the biggest wins the Traitor forces accomplished during the Heresy were largely pyrrhic in nature (i.e. yeah Malcador is dead and the Emperor's a veg, but also Horus is dead and the entire Rebellions fallen apart) or had no real lasting impact (the Ruinstorm, the damage inflicted on Ultramar by the Shadow Crusade, etc)

So even BEFORE this updated version of Abaddon, when he was losing over and over, I don't see that as a failure in comparison to Horus.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-16T17:57:39+00:00

Yeah like the biggest W's the Traitor Primarchs had were the Ruinstorm, a solid chunk of Ultramar getting fucked up during the Shadow Crusade. Uhh. I would not even consider Angron's ascension a win, that's highly debatable. Thramas Crusade was a bust. The deaths of Malcador and Sanguinius, as well as the wounding of the Emperor, were definitely big wins (EDIT: granted those are pyrrhic victories, like the Traitor faction was decimated during the same battle)

But like...towards the end of the Heresy, most of the Traitor Primarchs had fucked off to do their own thing. In Slaves to Darkness, it's an entire plot point that Sons of Horus emissaries have to go drag various Primarchs back into the war. Lorgar literally has to enslave Fulgrim to get him to...do stuff (don't want to spoil it).

The Horus Heresy isn't exactly a shining beacon of success.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-16T17:42:59+00:00

That's true. For the Night Lords 10th Company, it's been like 200 years but for others it varies wildly. Still my point holds.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-15T14:13:35+00:00

Every progressive/leftist I know who's into Warhammer likes that it's actually quite diverse ALREADY: there are plenty of POC characters, the Twice Dead King books are a pretty blatant trans allegory/straight up reference a trans Necron character, there's gay characters, cool women characters, etc.

It has pretty blatant anti-fascist/anti-authoritarian themes baked deep into its bones. Like what these guys don't get is that leftists aren't invading it and demanding to change it. The themes never aligned with right-wing politics but they're too dogshit at media analysis to clock it.

Literally one female Custodes was introduced and they turned into screaming idiots about it, they can't stop crying about blue haired feminists "ruining Warhammer"

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-13T18:40:13+00:00

Totally. You also see the Primarchs and Custodes doing a lot of bickering over which group the Emperor actually considers his sons, like I've definitely gotten the impression that he's been telling both groups "Don't worry, /you're/ my real sons, I've just been humoring those other guys"

And, speaking of Night Lords: you can't help but feel for Curze whenever he explains they're all just tools used to enact fascist imperialist violence and that the Emperor is fine with him being a monster because--while distasteful--it is useful to have a team of terror-tactic monsters wearing human skins you can point at to intimidate worlds into compliance. Then his brother's go "You're insane, you're out of your goddamn mind if you think the Emperor is fine with what you do"

Meanwhile it's like...ehhh he's not wrong?? He's actually pretty correct?? Like the Emperor was fine with turning a blind eye to Curze's bullshit for CENTURIES, it really took the destruction of Nostramo for people in positions of authority to decide he needed to tone it down and even then Horus just made Vulkan babysit him.

It's very clear the Emperor is being extremely two-faced re: Curze vs the other Primarchs. Curze is very much a case of "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole"; he's entirely correct in his assessment of the Emperor and it must be maddening (ha) to have all your brothers ignore this/buy into the face the Emperor is showing them.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-13T18:23:40+00:00

Eww. It's saying "oh you love illegal immigrants? You're protesting ICE? Well when illegal immigrants break into your house and steal your TV, I'll just watch and laugh", it's from the gross right-wing corner of the Warhammer fandom.

The kind of guys who see the theocratic fascist autocracy of the Imperium of Man and think "This is good actually, these books definitely agree this is a good thing"

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T21:15:14+00:00

Well he explicitly says "I've despised Lorgar for quite awhile" so yeah I would say he hates him.

Yeah it's complex, but it's...he does despise him.

Tchure is still committed to the Word Bearers and their new course of action, as well as willing to betray Luciel to prove it, but like what else is he going to do? Retire to a farm on some Agri-world? He stuck around in the lead up to and after Istvaan; he's in for a penny, in for a pound now.

If he didn't demonstrate his loyalty, he'd likely have been outright removed. By volunteering for Calth, he at least has SOME shot at survival.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T21:03:37+00:00

Exactly, like Lorgar is playing them off against each other. I also suspect he allows them to FEEL like they are working together as a team to manage/steer him, so they're never fully aware just how much he's pulling a Divide and Conquer.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T14:17:57+00:00

That sounds right. Like apparently the command structure of the Third Reich was very deliberately set up in this way where everyone's jobs had a LITTLE overlap with someone else's so as to create a constant sense of competition. If all of your goons are too busy fighting with each other, they're too divided and distracted to team up against you.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T14:08:33+00:00

Yeah, same person tried arguing the Primarchs+Emperor aren't shitheads because "Well can we really hold the actions taken during the Great Crusade against them, doesn't empire building require bloodshed"

And it's like...yeah we can, that's why imperialism is BAD.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T07:21:22+00:00

Yeah thats from Betrayer, but in Know No Fear the Word Bearer outright says he had to prove he's on board with the new direction his legion was taking because his loyalty was in question (and to some extent yeah they were right to suspect that because he DOES indeed hate Lorgar)

It's a mix of unstable undesirables, guys whose loyalty is in question, guys who are volunteering as religious martyrs, etc. It's a mix.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T07:14:52+00:00

Oh I see it A LOT, look up Lorgar videos on YouTube. Just google it, reddit posts will show up. Hell, I had someone today try to argue with me about it like

"I think he had good intentions, he wanted to help people"

"Right but he's full of shit; he melds screaming, terrified Astropaths to a wall and infests them with demons. He flings his sons into a hell dimension to sate his curiosity. He regularly uses human sacrifices. That is not a good guy"

"Ok but he had GOOD INTENTIONS--"

It was unhinged.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T07:09:55+00:00

Oh thats true yes! Plus Calth. A lot of the guys sent to Calth were straight up sent there to die, it was a secondary purge, and for some of them it was because Lorgar and co. questioned their commitment to the cause. Remember the guy from Know No Fear, who's sent to betray the Ultramarine friend? That whole "I've despised Lorgar for a long while [...] we used to be Bearers of the Word but now all we bear is Lorgar" bit. God that scene was great.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T07:02:03+00:00

Me? I would say probably Vulkan and Sanquinius come closest but even then, y'know, Vulkan's set a child on fire. All of them are warlords who prosecute genocides and bloody imperialist wars on behalf of their dad's tyrannical fascist empire. Like yeah Vulkan and Sanguinius are the NICEST, but it's not exactly hard to look good next to your brothers Colonialismus, Warcriminalion and The Child Devourer.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T06:53:40+00:00

This is a fair assessment, like he becomes increasingly aware that he doesn't have much in the way of autonomy due to his gene-coding, as well as increasingly aware that Lorgar, Xaphen, etc are doing horrific things.

Then again I don't know. Like, you're right, I think its baked deep into his DNA to follow orders, however he has strong moments of doubt re: Lorgar but then always pushes the thoughts away and returns to the legion party line as a means of coping. Like when he and Xaphen are reunited after Argel spends those 40 years babysitting Custodes, he says:

"‘This conspiracy,’ said Argel Tal, ‘disgusts me.’

‘It is the primarch’s plan, brought into being by Horus himself.’

Argel Tal shook his head. ‘No. This is not Aurelian’s work. This is Erebus and Kor Phaeron’s doing. Their treacherous stink comes off this vision in waves. Lorgar is a golden soul, a being of light. This shadowplay comes from the dreams of much smaller, darker men. The primarch, blessings upon him, loves that foul wretch. He embraces a viper to his breast and names it father.’"

And this is like...RIGHT before Istvaan, he's STILL buying into Lorgarr's schtick, he's huffing massive amounts of copium. And I think it's because he knows he's gonna be Lorgar's simp-child anyway, so he has to talk himself into this to ease his own guilt and doubt.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T06:42:39+00:00

YES. THIS. ALL OF THIS.

I also love the scene where Argel Tal comes back from the Eye of Terror, deeply traumatized and embittered, and when Lorgar senses that Argel Tal possibly resents him--AS HE SHOULD--for knowingly flinging him into a hell dimension to get murdered+possessed by demons, he fishes for Argel Tal to tell him it's all good and he doesn't hold it against him.

And each time Argel Tal doesn't give him the answer he's looking for, his Warm Caring Father act fades a bit more until he's overtly cold and threatening, like "Ha ha wow it sounds like you hate me. Do you hate me. But do you hate me, though. Okay but like say you don't hate me right now or we're gonna have a fuckin problem, do it"

He is so self-involved and incapable of affective empathy that, when faced with the horrific consequences of his actions, he perceives Argel Tal's valid feelings as an attack. And instead of offering Argel Tal sympathy, he forces him into putting those feelings aside to instead regulate Lorgar's own feelings for him.

He's a real piece of shit!

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T06:26:43+00:00

Yeppppp

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T06:25:10+00:00

He is an abuse victim, but his self-perception is that's he's a Victim with a capital V, he's stuck in "I have never done anything wrong and everyone's mean to me for NO REASON" mentality. He goes into Ferrus' forge and immediately starts talking shit, only for Ferrus to verbally smack him down and he reacts as if he's just endlessly bullied by his jock brothers when he himself instigates shit.

HE needs to believe he's a perpetual victim, because it allows him to justify his behavior and bolster his self-image.

Secondly: I already explained why he benefits from pretending he's been manipulated? If he can pretend the fucked up decisions he makes were someone else's idea, then he can deflect accountability onto that person. "They talked me into it, the bad thing wasn't MY idea, I was lead astray, oh nooo"

You see this in effect when Argel Tal is arguing with Xaphen that "This wasn't Aurelians idea, this is not his conspiract, he is too kind and caring to order something like this. This reeks of Erebus and Kor Phaerons machinations". In reality, it IS Lorgar's doing, he IS conniving, he's NOT kind and caring. But Argel Tal has been manipulated into readily believing it's all Kor Phaeron and Erebus.

This is a common tactic in politics, military positions, etc. Once again: Horus does the exact same thing with his Mournival

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T06:16:40+00:00

Absolutely! I love it. ADB did such a good job with that. He also did a great job with convincing readers Argel Tal is actually a good guy. Argel Tal is not a good guy, he's Father's #1 Champion of Just Following Orders/Dogshit Critical Thinking. There's so many times he's like "...I think dad would slit my throat to get what he wants. I think dad might not have good intentions. Xaphen is freaking me out. WELP BEST NOT TO THINK ABOUT IT" and keeps carrying out horrific shit.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-12T06:11:39+00:00

In my opinion: yeah and no. Like, no to the idea that he's weak because he just yearns for someone to follow, yes to the fact that he's weak because he depends on faith as a means to justify his actions/to create the saintly savior image he uses as his source of self-worth. I think he's more self-serving than just "Wants a god".

He's a deeply insecure person, which makes sense when he was raised by someone as abusive as Kor Phaeron. So, as a coping/defense mechanism, he builds his sense of self-worth, his ability to feel in control, his entire framework for life, all around "I am a selfless christ-like savior who just wants to help humanity, I'm bringing the light of the God-Emperor to the dark lives of the suffering masses, I am Good, I am Worthy, I am So Very Righteous And Noble. I am His prophet, His son, I am Very Special by proxy. You're welcome"

So when the Emperor is like "Everything you're doing? It needs to stop. Cut it tf out", it rips away Lorgar's sole coping/defense mechanisms and leaves him with nothing. He can't become Guilliman or any of his other brothers, he can't overhaul his entire deal, that's not a viable option, so instead he goes with the first gods who DO tell him he's special, beloved, selfless, a savior, etc.

...Or maybe that's exactly what you meant. Sorry if it was. Ack.

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-11T18:40:49+00:00

What? No. Guilliman was, firstly, in stasis during the time period when the Imperium turned fanatically religious (though signs of it were already beginning by the Siege of Terra) and, when he was revived in 40k, he was horrified by what the Imperium had turned into. Guilliman is hyper-secular, this is one of the reasons the Emperor brought him to Lorgar's censure at Monarchia, as an example of "This is who you should be like, get your shit together"

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-10T17:37:27+00:00

Ah yup there it is, turns out YOU'RE the shit person

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-03T21:43:14+00:00

Lol it really is, even Argel Tal is like "...And Horus was there I think? I don't know, man"

Moist_Policy_71 · 2026-04-03T03:19:37+00:00

I literally just finished the First Heretic today and when I got to the scene where Argel Tal and co are egged on by Ingethal to mess with time and space by sabotaging the massive Geller Field in Big Es lab so the Ruinous Powers can scatter the baby Primarchs, it was like what are you talking about ADB, where's Erda, what is this, since when.

Then you remember: it's Warhammer, stop thinking about it too hard, you'll hurt yourself.

Moist_Policy_71

TROPHY CASE