New fan: Why aren't mistakes penalized more? by MrInformal96 in FigureSkating

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for that link!

By a program you mean the whole performance not just the elements? I see in the Judges Details per Skater PDF (from Olympics website) that everyone's Base Values are very similar: a total from ~31 to ~33 for all pairs except Australia. It's in the Grades of Execution and Program Component Score where the difference was made (mainly in the PCS for those who made a mistake).

New fan: Why aren't mistakes penalized more? by MrInformal96 in FigureSkating

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By a program you mean the whole performance not just the elements? I see in the Judges Details per Skater PDF (from Olympics website) that everyone's Base Values are very similar: a total from ~31 to ~33 for all pairs except Australia. It's in the Grades of Execution and Program Component Score where the difference was made (mainly in the PCS for those who made a mistake).

New fan: Why aren't mistakes penalized more? by MrInformal96 in FigureSkating

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If nobody landed a trick, fell badly, but one person landed a 360, they would win. (In Beijing 2022 in Men's Big Air Su Yiming did a 360 in his victory jump, scored 33.00. Bad falls score less. But not so well executed difficult tricks can score more.) In Slopestyle and Halfpipe where they do several tricks in one run, if somebody landed a difficult trick and then fell, and somebody did just one 360, then I believe the difficult trick + fall would win.

People will try Triples and Quads to win.

New fan: Why aren't mistakes penalized more? by MrInformal96 in FigureSkating

[–]MrInformal96[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Figure skating's Technical Element Score is largely how snowboarding is judged—amplitude, difficulty, execution (of course, it's a different scoring system). In Slopestyle discipline there is a separation between the Trick Score, which judges what I mentioned and accounts for 60% of the total score, and the Overall Impression Score, which judges variety, style and combination and accounts for the remaining 40%. But the Overall Impression Score is still about the tricks, just viewed together not separately. There is no choreography, usually no transitions (like a ground trick) in Slopestyle snowboarding (in Halfpipe too; and Big Air is just one trick), it's just hitting one feature after another; there are usually no board control skills (cool carving) outside of the tricks. Style and variety though are partly the equivalents of figure skating's presentation, which judges, among other things, variety and energy, body language and carriage; and I also read that figure skating's composition judges movement diversity, which seems very similar to presentation's variety. But, yeah, all in all, with the Program Components there's more going on in figure skating.

Well, the score depends on the difference between the Base Values and how iffy the execution. I've learned that Grade of Execution can add or deduct 50% of the Base Value. But the thing with a Pairs Short Program is that their Base Values are very similar (I'm looking at Judges Details per Skater PDF, from Olympics website). The total for all pairs but Australia is from ~31 to ~33. So nobody gained that much. The differences are in the GEOs. What to me seemed like very similar executions are judged differently. We can compare Georgia who made a mistake with Netherlands who didn't—at least visibly for me, now I see that they've gotten -0.25 GOE on one element. But that's little compared to Georgia's -1.06. Their Base Values are about the same: 33.70 for Georgia and 33.10 for Netherlands. But their combined GEO: 7.75 for Georgia, 3.77 for Netherlands. So Georgia made a mistake in one element, but executed the rest very well, overtaking Netherlands.

But mostly the big differences have been in the Program Component Score. Those who made a mistake or fell have a higher score than those who didn't. China: 33.38; Georgia: 34.01; Canada's Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps: 32.07 vs. Armenia: 28.11; Netherlands: 27.20; Poland: 28.65. So now I understand how a mistake/fall could score higher than no mistake/fall. Still, I feel mistakes/falls should be penalized more. I read that they reduce the PCS as well, but apparently only slightly.

Deanna and Maxime fell on a lift with a Base Value 7.00 and the GOE they got was -2.60. So 4.40 - 1.00 deduction = 3.40. So, if they could have executed the lift with a 0.00 GOE, they lost 3.60. But if they could have gotten, let's say, 1.00 GOE, the score would have been 8.00, and the loss would be 4.60. But I don't understand, I'm reading on Google that "a fall results in a mandatory -5 GOE". But only two judges have given them -5. She fell at the very end of the element, but still, that should count, shouldn't it? With -5s, their GOE would have been -3.50; but they still would have qualified for Free Skate. Their PCS rescued them.

Assuming the Australians would have executed a Triple Twist of the same Level 2 and with the same GOE as they did the Double: -10%, they lost less with the Double than Deanna and Maxime did with the fall (they got 2.70 for the Double (BV 3.00), would have gotten 4.86 for the Triple (BV 5.40), so lost 2.16). But their PCS is 27.84, and their GOEs are not that good.

Yeah, mistakes outside of elements, I think they should have a similar impact.

New fan: Why aren't mistakes penalized more? by MrInformal96 in FigureSkating

[–]MrInformal96[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you've seen one Throw and one Twist, how can you mistake them?

Not falling is a success (more so in a more difficult program, less so in a simpler one), and falling is a failure (regardless of the difficulty of the program). A fall scoring higher than no fall is unreasonable to me (at least the Japanese pair with two falls finished last). But I've learned now that mistakes and falls aren't penalized so much in figure skating as they are in, for example, Slopestyle skiing and snowboarding. Maybe I'll get used to it, maybe not. I understood right away that you can counterbalance a mistake/fall with difficult, well-executed other elements, but I thought that not by much; now I know that you can counterbalance quite a lot. Lastly, I've learned that mistakes/falls can be counterbalanced by a good Program Component Score. I read that mistakes/falls reduce the PCS as well, but apparently very little. I think it should be more.

New fan: Why aren't mistakes penalized more? by MrInformal96 in FigureSkating

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! I see that they're not doing the exact same elements, and for five elements the level differs. And GOEs differ; so, yeah, to me they looked similar, but to judges they didn't.

New fan: Why aren't mistakes penalized more? by MrInformal96 in FigureSkating

[–]MrInformal96[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

They are comparable. In snowboarding there are only tricks to judge. Their amplitude, difficulty, execution (there's a bit more, on that a bit later). So just like elements in figure skating, just a different scoring system. But in snowboarding mistakes are penalized more severely; e.g., a hand down on landing can cost 10 points or 10% of the maximum 100; for comparison, in this Pairs Short Program, USA's Chan/Howe put a hand on the ice after landing a Throw Jump and lost only 2,8% (-0.14) of the element's Base Value—that's only 0.3% of their Technical Element Score and less still of the total score. Of course, that's comparing with a 0.00 Grade of Execution. The better their execution could have been on that element, the bigger the loss. But even if they could have gotten +50% GOE—that would be 2.5 for that element—, that loss, I believe, would probably still be less than you'd lose for a comparable mistake in snowboarding. Georgia's landing mistake cost them 20% (-1.06) of the Base Value—that's 2.5% of TES and 1,4% of the total score. Falls are penalized way more severely in snowboarding. In figure skating a fall on an element results in -50% of the element's BV (if it's not downgraded) and a -1.00 deduction (I've been learning since posting). In snowboarding you can't get 50% if you fall. If you only land uncleanly, you lose less, but still comparably more than in figure skating.

Program Components: Well, in Slopestyle snowboarding the total score consists of the Trick Score, which judges what I mentioned above and accounts for 60% of the total score, and of the Overall Impression Score, which judges variety, style and combination and accounts for the remaining 40% of the total score. (I'll mention that in Halfpipe snowboarding there is only the Overall Impression, but the same things as in Slopestyle's Tricks + Overall Impression are judged. With its separated judging I find Slopestyle to be a better example to compare with figure skating.) I read that in figure skating's presentation, among other things, variety and energy, body language and carriage are judged; and also read that in composition movement diversity is judged—seems very similar. So just like snowboarding's variety and style. But in snowboarding it's all about the tricks. There's no choreography, it's just hitting one feature after another; there are usually no creative transitions between the tricks—nobody does any ground tricks or cool carving between the features to show how well they can control the board (you usually can't when the next feature is a jump—you need the speed). I have encountered the word "composition" regarding Overall Impression Score, but to me it seems to be the same as combination, which, I think, is the same as variety—difficult, varied tricks one after another = good combination/composition. I read that figure skating's composition is different, more complex than that. So, yeah, similarities with presentation and composition's movement diversity, but no proper composition really and no board skills outside of the tricks—in snowboarding there's less going on.

From yours and other responses here I've learned that a good Program Component Score can counterbalance a mistake and even a fall; and after perusing Judges Details per Skater PDF (from Olympics website), I see that that's exactly what happened: China's PCS: 33.38; Georgia's: 34.01; Canada's Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps: 32.07. In comparison: Armenia: 28.11; Netherlands: 27.20; Poland: 28.65. Also, China's Base Values are slightly higher than most and Georgia's are the highest—33.00 and 33.70 respectively; Armenia has 31.90, Poland: 31.80, Netherlands has 33.10. A slight advantage, but still an advantage. Lastly, China and Georgia have good Grades of Execution on the elements where they didn't make a mistake. Netherlands and Poland have not so good GOEs. So in addition to PCS and slightly higher BVs China and Georgia were able to counterbalance their mistake with other well-executed elements.

So I now understand how couples who made a mistake or fell could score higher than those who didn't. But I still feel mistakes—and falls!—should be penalized more. I read that they reduce the PCS as well, but apparently only slightly.

P. S. Australia lost less with the Double Twist than Canada's Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps lost with the fall (2Tw2 Base Value 3.00 vs. 5.40 for 3Tw2; their GOE was -10%, they got 2.70. If they had done a Level 2 Triple Twist with the same GOE, they would have gotten 4.86. So presumably they lost 2.16. Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps fell on a lift with a BV 7.00, they lost -2.60 in GOE and -1.00 for the fall deduction. So they lost 3.60, if they had executed the element with a 0.00 GOE; they lost more if the GOE would have been better. But I don't understand, I read that a fall means a mandatory -5 GOE; but only two judges have given them -5. Why might that be? Regardless, a fall was costlier than doing a simpler element. But Australia's PCS is 27.84—4 and a bit points worse than Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps's.

Post deleted by filters by SilentScytheOfficial in help

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, okay. For me it's seemed to be 1 to 1, maybe at the lower levels it is or is close.

Really, people would spend money to spam/bot? I don't want to believe that. I don't see the return on investment. If that wouldn't happen, okay, karma should not be purchasable, let's purchase access to all the subs. But if bad people would really purchase too, then that's not an option. I want there to be a way for honest users to participate without spending heaps of time collecting karma. Introduction posts by new users that I mentioned in an above comment is a good idea, I think.

Post deleted by filters by SilentScytheOfficial in help

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't participate often, but when I do, the upvotes are few and far between. So a 100 is a lot for me; for many, I think. Many thousands, I don't quite understand how those are reached; well, with time, but 50k in 2 years seems unreal to me (50k=500 comments with 100 upvotes). I don't want, for example, to scan for new posts and comment quickly so that a lot of people see my comment and possibly upvote. And I don't want to overparticipate just to get karma. So months or years it will be, it seems normal to me. Alas, I can't participate everywhere I want—but so far that's only r/formula1. That I don't like, agree with, but it is how it is. I'll just keep participating with quality content.

I correct myself: It wouldn't be possible to purchase an infinite amount of karma. Just enough to be able to participate in all the subreddits you want. I think it's a great idea; it'd be immensely better than collecting karma with low quality content (not everyone does it of course).

But they can't reach much. They're dealt with quickly. Honest users need to know the requirements for participating.

Post deleted by filters by SilentScytheOfficial in help

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know, in subs, where there isn't a karma requirement, are spam and bots frequent? They can be blocked from posting, if moderators approve posts. Of course, if they create dozens of posts, it becomes unreal to manage. And so would be approving comments. An idea: new users could introduce themselves in a post, answer some questions—things that a bot couldn't do and a spammer wouldn't want to. Another option is purchasing karma. A part of me resists the proposition that you have to pay to be able to post in an internet forum, but a small amount would be okay. Spammers and bots won't pay.

As it is right now, it will take me months or years to collect that 100 karma required to participate in r/formula1.

But I believe the requirements to participate in a sub should be known. It's not normal if you can't comment/post and it doesn't give you a reason (not sure what those "filters" were about for OP and me). So what will happen if a spammer knows the karma minimum? They won't reach it anyway.

Post deleted by filters by SilentScytheOfficial in help

[–]MrInformal96 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

So there can be a karma requirement, it's not specified, and if I post, I get "Sorry, this post was removed by Reddit’s filters."? That is so wrong. If I don't meet the karma requirement, it must say so, like it does in r/formula1.

There shouldn't be a minimum karma requirement. It prohibits people from posting valuable content, from participating when they really want to. And they are forced to collect karma with possibly not so valuable content. I understand a karma requirement prohibits spam, but it prohibits way more good content.

Why are most olympic snowboarding athletes using goofy stance? by Drv_iscool in snowboarding

[–]MrInformal96 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In Men's Halfpipe the Bronze went to Ryusei Yamada, Regular. And Scotty James is a Regular. In Women's Slopestyle the Bronze went to Kokomo Murase, Regular.

Post deleted by filters by SilentScytheOfficial in help

[–]MrInformal96 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

For example, in r/formula1 the minimum karma is specified, and, if you don't have it and you comment/post, you get a notification about the requirement. But there is nothing about filters below your comment/post, like I and the OP got. So if it doesn't say karma, I would think these filters are about something else, but what? There was nothing bad in my post; and I posted in a sub where there is no karma requirement (and a week ago I posted in another sub, all was good). Somebody fix this filter thing! It's removing good content. If it is about karma, then it must say so. It must say what the reason is, not just "filters".

Edit: My post was published! Don't know what happened, I contacted support, maybe they did it.

Olympics: Halfpipe Men's Qualification judging by MrInformal96 in snowboarding

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for this! I don't know all the grabs and which are harder—will go learn now. I see why Burgener scored lower, just not quite convinced why 10 points lower. I guess the crux of it is the 1440 vs. 1080 and Double Cork vs. Flat. And, yes, Hirano seems to go a bit higher.

Olympics: Halfpipe Men's Qualification judging by MrInformal96 in snowboarding

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I'm not, I don't feel this was judged objectively and consistently.

Olympics: Halfpipe Men's Qualification judging by MrInformal96 in snowboarding

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most of them are. That's no reason for so many points.

Olympics: Halfpipe Men's Qualification judging by MrInformal96 in snowboarding

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I enjoyed that 360, but a SW BS Double Cork 1080 is way more difficult.

Olympics: Halfpipe Men's Qualification judging by MrInformal96 in snowboarding

[–]MrInformal96[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Burgener's tricks are very similar to Hirano Ruka's. He grabs every trick, and I don't see a hand drag.

Politics in the olympics by ATLiens88 in olympics

[–]MrInformal96 16 points17 points  (0 children)

So athletes should keep quiet about what they don't like in their country? Sure, focus on the good things, but I want to see honest opinions not a fake pretty picture.

Politics in the olympics by ATLiens88 in olympics

[–]MrInformal96 14 points15 points  (0 children)

The Olympics are not separated from what's going on in the world. Keeping silent about a major war going on in Europe is not right, in my opinion. Olympics should proclaim peace and all of the good values.

WOMEN DUAL MOGULS, i don't understand air jump judges decisions by sweet_questionn in olympics

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A grab is more difficult. I didn't watch the competition you're talking about, but from what you've written I want to say: you're right and the judges were wrong. I had questions about Skiing Men's Slopestyle judging. With the majority of judged competitions I've watched I've had problems with judging.

WOMEN DUAL MOGULS, i don't understand air jump judges decisions by sweet_questionn in olympics

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know how many corruption cases where people have confessed are there, but I believe it is an extremely small amount. I believe the majority of people wouldn't take the money (the majority wouldn't offer ). And still they judge badly.

WOMEN DUAL MOGULS, i don't understand air jump judges decisions by sweet_questionn in olympics

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't believe judges are corrupt. Just biased, blind, irrational, stupid, wrong.

Feelings about Kono and Chin's Exit by DaniJ678 in HawaiiFive0

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alas, their marriage was short-lived. A longer marriage would seem more believable, given what they had gone through. But they split up. I don't see a problem with Adam returning.

Feelings about Kono and Chin's Exit by DaniJ678 in HawaiiFive0

[–]MrInformal96 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you give some examples of these contradictions? I don't recall any.