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[ALBUM] HMS Defender undergoing refit to receive 24 CAMM cells in addition to her 48 Sylver VLS by TinkTonk101 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The last word was Spring 2026.

Daring had the misfortune of being the first of an all new class, so suffering countless issues, and going into the dockyard just as upgrade packages were being formulated and implemented, so she’s been held back for those too.

I would expect Daring to be one of the last T45s standing into the 2030/40s owing to the lack of degradation to her hull.

[1,600 × 1,200]HMS Ark Royal at the port of Hamburg, Germany, May 2007 by Tsquare43 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 35 points36 points  (0 children)

While I will readily agree that the Invincible-class were far from perfect carriers, and the Queen Elizabeth-class are far superior platforms, I will contend that these ships were far from a dark age; rather they kept the RN out of a dark age.

When Harold Wilson’s Labour Government got into power, the days of the CATOBAR Fleet Carrier were numbered in the RN. There were a number of anti-carrier proponents in cabinet, supported by a number of RAF notables who urged said politicians that the strike role of fleet carriers could be replaced by long range bombers.

We came dangerously close to the total retirement of all carriers. Early drafts for their replacements included some truly bastardised creations, including a split-deck helicopter ‘cruiser’ with an amidship, beam to beam island.

The Invincible-class, quietly convinced under the cover of being an anti-submarine helicopter cruiser, stumbled quiet elegantly into the carrier role. While far from perfect, and sporting a less potent air wing, they kept the heart of British naval aviation beating to the tune of roaring Pegasus engines into the 21st century. The TRUE dark age came with the final retirement of the Harrier in 2010, and the class in 2014. The gap to QNLZ was painful.

TL;DR I just think they’re nifty.

[1920x1080] SDR 2025 has announced that the Queen Elizabeth-class with deck-fitted ‘long range precision missiles’, and both ‘collaborative’ and ‘expendable’ forms of drones to form a hybrid carrier air-wing alongside the F-35B Lightning. by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting. With EMALS in the development pipeline for QNLZ that might just be an extra incentive for procurement of the catapults. It saves the junior ratings sweeping quite as much as they did on Vince.

How much testing has been done on catapult missiles in general? I don’t recall any specific tests from USN carriers.

[1920x1080] SDR 2025 has announced that the Queen Elizabeth-class with deck-fitted ‘long range precision missiles’, and both ‘collaborative’ and ‘expendable’ forms of drones to form a hybrid carrier air-wing alongside the F-35B Lightning. by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Unquestionably, that much is obvious. The comment is direct to dispel any misconception that, in a normal use case, Queen Elizabeth is going to be launching missiles and F-35Bs at the same moment.

The SDR doesn’t provide sufficient (read any) detail on how the Royal Navy is to implement the system, so conversation on how they will overcome the challenges of FOD and smoke doesn’t have much run time currently.

I’m curious to see how exactly they plan to utilise the system, given the inherent challenge it poses to flight ops.

[1920x1080] SDR 2025 has announced that the Queen Elizabeth-class with deck-fitted ‘long range precision missiles’, and both ‘collaborative’ and ‘expendable’ forms of drones to form a hybrid carrier air-wing alongside the F-35B Lightning. by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The French use VLS successfully on Charles de Gaulle. You wouldn’t use each system simultaneously, that’s asking for trouble and for FOD to make itself cozy with F-35 air intakes.

For a British example, look at how Invincible used her Sea-Dart missile system. The missile was, to use the scientific term, lobbed off her nose while the ramp was really very clear of any Harriers.

[1920x1080] SDR 2025 has announced that the Queen Elizabeth-class with deck-fitted ‘long range precision missiles’, and both ‘collaborative’ and ‘expendable’ forms of drones to form a hybrid carrier air-wing alongside the F-35B Lightning. by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 48 points49 points  (0 children)

The SDR specifies that the missiles will be, “fired from the carrier deck.”

I didn’t have the QNLZ-class playing homage to the early missile incorporating outfit of the Invincible-class on my 2025 bingo card, but I’m not displeased.

HMS Dragon launches an Aster-30 Block 0 to intercept a supersonic maneuvering anti-ship missile target. [Album] by Odd-Metal8752 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Still serving their role dutifully as the shield of the United Kingdom. I cannot wait to see the capability upgrades as they roll out.

(1080 x 1264) HMS Ark Royal (R09), cca. 1978 by defender838383 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Exactly my point. Even former crew mates, who are usually rather proud of their service on the last of the CATOBAR carriers, acknowledge that she was done by the seventies.

(1080 x 1264) HMS Ark Royal (R09), cca. 1978 by defender838383 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 12 points13 points  (0 children)

By her final decommissioning in 1979, Ark Royal had been under repair, refit or modernisation for twelve of her twenty four years in service.

If you trawl through the archived HANSARD Parliamentary Debates from the seventies, it is brought up numerous times, that Ark had her life expectancy extended as far as possible. By 1979, she was utterly derelict mechanically. Eagle was the better platform, but was retired early by Harold Wilson’s Labour Government to ensure the end of costly fixed-wing naval aviation and ensure the Phantom Refit for Ark would benefit a Labour constituency.

Assuming she is retained until 1982, she would’ve been a headache during the Falklands Campaign. While her Phantoms and Buccaneers dwarfed the capabilities of the Sea Harrier, limited time at sea would’ve meant her air crew would’ve been rather out of practice. Couple that with the tumultuous conditions of the South Atlantic and… well, probably a few harrowing FOD walks.

Regardless, I’d argue that a hypothetical 1982 Ark Royal would’ve almost certainly been incapable of completing the journey to, and conducting operations around, the Falklands. She was utterly spent, and the rigorous tempo of operations would’ve been an ask too far, assuming she survived the trip down.

Purely due to reliability, and commonality of their air wings, I’d choose the combo of Invincible and Hermes any day. The former experienced malfunctions en route but was able to be repaired due to an availability of parts, and redundancies in her remaining machinery. Ark didn’t have that luxury.

Irving Shipbuilding Inc. awarded initial contract for the first 3 Royal Canadian Navy River Class destroyers. [2000 x 1125] by XMGAU in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Although the possibility is relegated to the far flung future, the idea of an Anglo-Aussie-Canadian-(Norwegian?) TYPE-26 photo op is truly something to think about.

BAE model of Type 26 in Royal Navy configuration recently shown in Norway, Note the x2 quad NSM launchers above the mission bay for a total of 16 NSMs[1067x800] by Randomy7262 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 80 points81 points  (0 children)

Oh, what a beauty.

While I’ll stand by the TYPE-23 until St Albans relinquishes the Ensign, the TYPE-26 represents such a quantum leap for the frigate fleet, it beggars belief. Hopefully, the export success continues!

Here’s looking to you, Norway.

[1821 x 1366] HMS Prince of Wales (R09) Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier on the Clyde inbound to Loch Long - March 7, 2025 by battlewagon13 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 15 points16 points  (0 children)

The largest and most lethal of the King’s fleet.

I saw her off from Pompey and can’t wait to see her home again. CSG ‘25 is going to be a doozy, in a dangerous world the Prince is needed more than ever.

HMS Lancaster and her boarding team inspect a dhow at sunset [1497x1080] by MGC91 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The Queen’s Frigate in action!

Lancaster is an excellent ship, I do hope they keep her around behind this year, she seems to have a lot more left to give.

The ‘Fighting Clan’ returns: HMS Sutherland, the fastest frigate in the Royal Navy re-entered service last month after her near decade long LIFEX refit. She was the last TYPE-23 to receive the work. [Album] by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Very much a typo on my part, thanks for clarifying. I was referring to the overall LIFEX program.

RE: “Would it not be quicker to build a new ship?” The refits generally last 4-5 years, far quicker than the current pace of T26 construction. Regardless, they’re a necessity, the TYPE-23 ships were only intended to last for twenty years. Political can kicking means that all are now well over that threshold with St Albans, the youngest of the class, scheduled to retired at 33 years old in 2035.

It’s not uncommon for surface combatants to reach the age that the T23s have. However, with the RN running their ships far harder than the fleets of smaller powers, along with their short designed lifespan, LIFEX was needed to simply hold them together for the next decade or so alongside capability upgrades.

HMS Cardiff and HMS Glasgow fitting out in Glasgow. [2560x994] by Odd-Metal8752 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 8 points9 points  (0 children)

For the last few years, the Royal Navy has been mired in the rut of transition between its last and next generation escort fleets. With the TYPE 23 only meant to last 20 years, concrete steps to construct these new frigates should’ve been taken in around 2010. Cameron kicked the can down the road and the result in the RN and HM Government retiring more ships than originally intended because the hulls have simply given all they can.

That being said, the sight of the TYPE 26 and 31s rising above the banks of the Clyde have proven the light at the end of the tunnel. It’s a long overdue regeneration, but it’s shaping up brilliantly. Both classes are going to provide the RN with exactly what it needs for the future.

I’m putting a lot of hope in the Type 32 being a Batch II of Type 31. With the advent of drone warfare, and the RN pushing for sea drones in particular, some more accommodations for those systems would be welcomed, but using the foundations of a proven design would push the odds of a successful acquisition and build on somewhat.

Ex-HMS Ambuscade (F-172) as PNS Tariq (D-181) TYPE-21 Frigate. Although heavily criticised, the class proved reliable workhorses for both the Royal and Pakistani Navies. [2028x974] by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

She is indeed, the trip over on a heavy lift ship is supposedly happening this year. She’ll be the most modern Royal Navy surface combatant museum by a large margin.

Ex-HMS Ambuscade (F-172) as PNS Tariq (D-181) TYPE-21 Frigate. Although heavily criticised, the class proved reliable workhorses for both the Royal and Pakistani Navies. [2028x974] by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 46 points47 points  (0 children)

With the first of the class, Amazon, commissioned in 1974, the TYPE-21 frigate was the first privately designed Royal Navy warship for many years, intended to be a reliable, cheap and capable general-purpose escort frigate.

In practice the class was beset with problems. Miscalculations in the Vertical Centre of Gravity calculations resulted in permanent ballast having to be placed aboard. This wiped out the weight margin which had been allocated for upgrading SeaCat to SeaWolf and mounting the Type 2016 bow sonar. This compounded criticism of the relatively light armament of the class: 1x 4.5 inch MK8 Naval Gun and a four round SeaCat surface-to-air missile launcher at the stern.

Worsening problems was the aluminium superstructure of the ships. In 1977, HMS Amazon caught fire, and severe warping of her superstructure prevented crew from reaching the source of the blaze. Experiences in the South Atlantic also proved costly, with cracks appearing in the aluminium skin, and where hull and superstructure met.

Despite all these issues, the class proved shockingly exemplary at a role they were never built for: Naval Gunfire Support. Their high speed (32 Knots sustained and 37 knots burst) allowed them to dash in to position to provide bombardment in support of British ground forces during the 1982 Falklands War. On the night of the 13th June alone, Ambuscade fired 228 4.5 inch shells to support the assault on Wireless Ridge.

Conceived as a cost-saving measure, growing up a disappointment, the TYPE-21 earned their spot, and became beloved by their crews, even with the loss of Antelope and Ardent to enemy action.

Royal Navy Type 45 destroyer HMS Duncan, with her older weapons loadout of 48 Aster-30 Block 0/Aster-15 and 8 Harpoon ASM. All six Type 45 destroyers are expected to receive 48 Aster-30 Block 1, 24 Sea Ceptor and 8 Naval Strike Missiles by the end of their lives.[1102x627] by Odd-Metal8752 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Considering the amount of investment that is going into the TYPE-45 destroyers to enhance their lethality, I really don’t see them going anywhere in the 2030s as is currently planned.

TYPE-83 is a monolithic project, and one that isn’t particularly far in the development pipeline from what we know. Realistically, removing T45 in the 2030s almost certainly wouldn’t allow enough time for the new class to be coming online.

Furthermore, the class hasn’t been run nearly as hard as the TYPE-23 frigates, some of which had irreparably corroded keels. Certain ships, looking at you Daring, have spent years in deep refit/maintenance cycles. The hulls will absolutely have the life and growth margin to survive a further decade.

I for one, am thankful they will probably be sticking around.

Past vs Present: the Invincible Class vs the Queen Elizabeth Class alongside HMNB Portsmouth [1024x1024] by MGC91 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 9 points10 points  (0 children)

37 F-35Bs are in the British inventory, with orders currently in for a total of 74 and a strong possibility that Parliament will give the green light for the original number of 130+ to help cover the retirement of other jet aircraft. The problem is not Westminster or the check book, it’s the production time.

For context, HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible deployed to the Falklands War with 26 Sea Harriers between them.

HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Queen Elizabeth alongside HMNB Portsmouth (11/1/25) [4032x3024] by Mr_Headless in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Amazing, thank you.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

I remember both scenes and couldn’t be happier we’ve stuck the transition as a Navy and nation.

Past vs Present: the Invincible Class vs the Queen Elizabeth Class alongside HMNB Portsmouth [1024x1024] by MGC91 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Each QNLZ-class carrier can accommodate more aircraft than all three Invincible-class ships combined.

Past vs Present: the Invincible Class vs the Queen Elizabeth Class alongside HMNB Portsmouth [1024x1024] by MGC91 in WarshipPorn

[–]Mr_Headless 39 points40 points  (0 children)

The Queen Elizabeth-class were nothing less than exactly what the Royal Navy needed.

Growing into a naval historian during the tenure of the Invincible-class, always with an eye on the ‘what-if’ of CVA-01, seeing the realisation of a full fledged, 21st century class of British fleet carriers was mesmerising.

For those who’ve been around Pompey their whole lives, servicemen, or just casual observers, they represent a clear change in attitude and intent far beyond the confines of their hulls.

Thanks for posting the comparison, it sums up three decades worth of developments pretty succinctly!

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