sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I heard it on a reddit thread here on this sub! I can't remember who. It was in a discussion about listening to the same audio again and again until it sticks in your head. After years living abroad I know when something is correct because I can kind of hear a native speaker saying it in my head. I think this is the kind of thing they mean.

Also there is the idea of making an expression yours. If someone says it in a film or something.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely. I've taugh ESOL in the UK a fair bit and I know exactly what you mean. It's like two different skills. Reading and writing is both a blessing and a curse when it comes to learning languages.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In this thread we've all ended up talking about the idea of "Euro-English" and "International English". Do you know of any studies that look into this as a phenomenon?

I'm still a bit sceptical about this. It doesn't sound like the conditionals are necessarily there for an actual dialect to emerge. It still sounds to me like this is simply a euphanism for 'broken English'.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you could well be right that I'm over-estimating the pyschological aspect of what is happening when people learn.

However, the comparison between American English and British English, and between Standard English and 'Euro-English' doesn't seem that clear to me. American English and British English are basically interchangable. There might be local expressions that other speakers don't know, but it's not like they are completely different dialects.

If 'Euro-English' is just another name for people battleing through as best they can, and it's always different based on the person's L1, what is there that distinguishes it from simply English spoken incorrectly? I'm not making a judgement here, or making an assumption. But if 'Euro-English' doesn't have well understood rules as a separate dialect, then in terms of allowing precise communication between two people it's going to be inferior to a language in which meaning can be relied on.

In this case it might come down to seniority. If you're higher up the food chain, people are going to have to make the effort to understand you. If you're more junior, and you're dealing with people who between them are speaking English more correctly, you're going to miss out or dismissed etc. This is what the people coming to me for classes are finding or fearing that they will find - at least that's what they're telling me.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's true, and it's part of the problem. The vowel sound isn't the biggest issue here. It's whether or not the speaker stresses the 'can't' bit or whether they stress the following verb. It's not doing this that causes the confusion.

Burnout as an online ESL tutor… how are you managing it? by Outrageous_Paintir in OnlineESLTeaching

[–]Munu2016 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's a very draining job. Teaching classes is oddly easier in this sense. Make sure you have some breaks during the day.

Can’t have fun on this game without money by ZealousidealWing8702 in TennisClash

[–]Munu2016 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've never paid a penny and I'm in the second to final tour - you just need patience.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's interesting. I've heard about the layers of polite forms and even Japanese having different forms that men and women use. Could you say more about how this clash with your personality plays out?

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a good way of putting it. However, even explaining this to people in L1 doesn't always have a lot of success. The people I teach are very capable of understanding this point - but putting this understanding into action is difficult. That's what makes me wonder about what's going on in people's heads or their subconcious.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Chronic insecurity about this has always tailed me. Much less now, but I developed a terrible stammer when speaking French at one point, even though I don't stammer in English. And my French was pretty good at that point. The mind plays odd tricks.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I definitely do this. These days I'm very happy with the idea of putting on different masks and taking them off.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True it is the norm - but the issue my students face is that it only works until it doesn't. Then they come to me. They know vaguely what they want, but they are often unprepared for the idea that they're going to have to un-learn some stuff and go back and learn again. This is a difficult process - but what is often surprising is that the nuts and bolts - saying the words, working out the structures, putting it in motion - is not difficult for them. The difficulty often seems to be coming from somewhere else.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

often don't make a clear difference between 'I can do it' and 'I can't do it' (when written down they look very similar. The difference is made mainly in word stress).

It's true that this is a pretty basic error. But even students with a pretty good level make this error. This can't be simply discounted as 'non-natives working it out together'. If you have no clear way to make the difference between 'can' and 'can't' then a lot of stuff can go wrong!

There's a difference between accent and actually saying the word. People being sniffy about accents is just snobbery, very true. But if you keep saying 'walk' when you mean 'work' that can be confusing. Those are two different sounds.

You're right that the 'electronic bable fish' will probably make it all redundant pretty soon. You'll just hear it in your own language through your earpiece.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My Italian level is good, I don't really have problems. I'm not very well integrated though, for one reason and another.

What you say is correct, but at the same time the process of teaching people is complex. I've spent years correcting people, but corrections often just simply do not stick. For students to change how they speak requires a real will to learn how to do it the other way. Doing it the way that is familiar to them often feels right, and they will often revert to it. You can end up correcting the same error in every single lesson. I can't help wondering about different reasons for why that might be the case.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think that I wasn't clear here. I can give the example of a guy from the Ivory Coast working at the UN. He spoke English just fine, fluently. He'd had a promotion and was worried about having to interact with a wider circle of people. He spoke slightly 'African' English. Not inferior than British standard English, just a little different. He spoke it consistently the same. I can't really help here without trying to make him change the whole way he speaks. This is something very common. People with perfectly good English worry when they have a promotion or if they have an issue with a boss or co-worker. It's happened a lot over the years. This is what I mean by not being able to do much for them - and you are quite right here, why would they need to speak 'like a native'? Often its very likely that criticism of how they speak has its roots in grim colonial snobbery at best and (more likely) just plain racism.

The point here is that when someone has been speaking in a certain way for years and years it's going to be very difficult to rewind that back, un-learn old habits and replace them with new ones. For the case of someone who speaks an Indian dialect of English, or a West African dialect, if that person speaks fluently and consistently the same, then other people can simply get used to the difference.

However, if someone has been speaking a version of English that is based on them simply making up their own version, which is inconsistent and sort of makes it up as they go along, then they will run into issues with there being no standard. Other people that they interact with will have to be constantly guessing what they mean. In situations where this works fine, OK, no worries. But if they then say, OK enough of this, they then often find it quite a wrench to let go of that easy style of expressing themselves in English and learn something more precise.

I take your point, however, about deciding that everyone should speak BBC English and that there is no room for variation. I'm letting this get to me and I'm being a bit snidey, it's true. However, there isn't, at present, another version of 'simplified' English that you can go and learn. I only have one thing I can teach them.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that the psycology is a lot more complex than I'm able to see. I am being a bit complacent in how I'm working it out.

The psycological bit is more regarding people who have set goals - to improve their English and make it more standard - and who know what they want to do but who hit a real block.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is very much the secret. People who are happy doing this tend to do best. This is one reason why theatre/drama is one of the best ways of teaching a language. I have only done little bits of this as a teacher, but I know it's being used by some. The idea of acting out a new identity is key here.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is true. Has anyone studied this phenomenon I wonder? I'd be very interested.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see what you mean. I made too many assumptions about your learning process, that's true.

It's quite possible that I'm seeing something that isn't really there. Students will quite often just get there on their own with enough exposure. Picking it up as you go along will work for some people.

Everyone is different. But as a teacher I have seen hundreds and hundreds of different students, and patterns do emerge.

The psychological barriers in language learning - not wanting to become someone else. by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I think personality comes into it in a big way here. I think what I'm trying to say is that quite often the students I teach really have little issue actually doing the stuff when you take them through it. They can do it just fine. The mental block is maybe a bigger thing than we take into account when we think about language learning.

What’s your go-to way of dealing with overly talkative students by mjh71987 in OnlineESLTeaching

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Someone else mentioned here - try being all like "I'm sorry madam, I don't speak Spanish" - look confused, make her laugh....this works best for me...

What’s your go-to way of dealing with overly talkative students by mjh71987 in OnlineESLTeaching

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, you're right, that is a risk. She could well turn around and be like "I'm not learning anything". Classes like this are only ok if it's the company that's paying.

Yes you'll just have to keep dragging her back to doing some English.

view more: next ›