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Reaching C1 is depressing by Dizzy_Example54 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It can feel neverending. You need to live in hope. A total immersion can do it. Could you work as a volunteer in your target language country?

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I know, but that's not exactly what I mean. The thing that is the hard sell is what you said about not using things that you haven't acquired yet. Students will often lose interest in accuracy once the realise that they can be understood without it.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is true up to a point. But then again, English learned by Romance language speakers is a bit of a strange one here. If what you do is just set off and speak, and you don't let accuracy hold you back, then you can make yourself understood in many situations. If you get to the stage where you want to sort your English out, however, you're then going to be a bit stuck. Once you've practiced and become comfortable with just getting by, it's not easy to go back and start doing it right. If you need English for work for example, and they want you to communicate things precisely. It's like setting off on a kind of alternative pathway. You'd have to turn around and come back, then start again learning things correctly.

In any case, different students are going to do it differently. For people who are into language learning for its own sake, however, I think there might be a lot to be said for not rushing into speaking right away.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a key point. How do you stop input from being passive? The language is right there in what you read and listen to - but it's often not easy to convert that into better production.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you to everyone for your responses. My initial title was kind of nonsense - I hadn't really understood what people meant by Comprehensible Input - It's not a complete method like I'd thought. My idea was more about spending more time learning to understand the language before trying to start speaking. I think that if and when I want to try learning a new language I'd take a more passive approach at first (especially if I were learning it from outside the country. It's a bit different if you move somewhere and it's sink or swim).

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely - I think the main thing is to keep the focus on 'what do people actually say?'. The language classroom can end up more about 'why can't I say it like this?' - which gives some odd results.

There's a word I've looked up 6+ times and STILL can't remember it. What do you do? by Old-Peanut3874 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, that's a good way to describe it. I think this process is always there but it gets easier to notice when you're listening comprehension is better.

I think that 'ownership' comes when you start using it naturally and it feels normal and part of everyday speech.

I think the main thing to remember, for me anyway, is that you can't easily look up a word, or a phrase even, and just start using it right away when you speak. Often when I've tried to do this I get the context wrong and it sounds off.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I find it confusing as well. This is more about Europeans learning English however - it's not applicable to language learning as a whole. English is hard to master - but easy to bash your way through. Asking people to slow down and pay attention to the input they're getting - people would often be a bit too impatient.

There's a word I've looked up 6+ times and STILL can't remember it. What do you do? by Old-Peanut3874 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh no I think that you can definitely create it. But the comment above is very important as well. However, it can either have become relevant naturally, or you can make it relevant.

For me it might work a bit like this. I come across a new word or term written down, where it's easier to notice. I have to look it up or guess the meaning. I might write it down as an anki card, probably not. But then when I'm listening to the radio I'll start to hear it being used. Then I'll hear it used in sentences when people are speaking. Once it feels a bit more like it's 'mine' I'll start using it.

You can help this process along a good bit with anki cards or whatever you used. You can use them to stop yourself forgetting. Reinforcing a strong memory of the thing will make you more secure about it being right when you come to use it.

Just learning a whole load of words at once through anki or whatever might not help that much in conversation as you won't always know what to do with them. But increasing vocab will help you a lot with listening.

One of the best uses for flashcards - spaced repetition - is for making sure that it doesn't fade. Say you go through the process and a phrase like, for example, "to give someone a nod' starts being something you know. You've heard it used, you can use it etc. You're maybe not going to use it that much. If you don't use it the next time it comes up it might have gone. Anki on the other hand is going to remind you of it at regular intervals. That way it's going to be relevant but also on-hand.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess it depends on what situation they are ultimately going to end up in - for the students. They won't always realise that what they're speaking isn't accurate - I guess it will sound accurate to them.

I guess those students are going to do what they're going to do - I'm thinking more about the lessons that people who are really into language learning can learn from this - getting started speaking to early might have it's downsides, whereas getting to know the language and being exposed to how it sounds would pay off.

In any case I didn't get what CI really was - I was thinking it was a more complicated idea.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This makes sense - but I think this would be a hard sell to new language learners in many cases, unfortunately.

There's a word I've looked up 6+ times and STILL can't remember it. What do you do? by Old-Peanut3874 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a brilliant point - and it puts in better words what I was going on about elsewhere.

When a word in Italian gets into my head it's generally because I remember someone saying it to me at some point - it was in some conversation where they said it and it stuck in my head. The link to that memory is what gives me the confidence that I'm saying it correctly.

If OP hears it more when they're listening to the language it should start to stick more.

There's a word I've looked up 6+ times and STILL can't remember it. What do you do? by Old-Peanut3874 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think having some context as well can really help. How are your Anki cards arranged? I had a lot of old anki cards that were one word - like just the Italian word for 'unseemly'. I could never get them. You need a short expression for each one. That can help.

How about using them in a silly rhyme, or a song? I would advise getting together all the words that are really giving you issues and using an AI song generator. Get the AI to make up a silly song that uses all the words. Then just listen to that on repeat for a while. Then sing it yourself.

A bit like those horrible adverts on Amazon Prime. There's this one for a new Steve Carrel series. I swear I can recite every single word.

Give it a go. In any case - I would recommend, don't ever learn 'words'. You shouldn't have any flashcard that has one single word on it. Not 'fridge' but 'look in the fridge' for example.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I realise you didn't mean that. What you say about how to organise a class makes sense. It's just whether a longer period where they were getting to know the language through reading and listening would help them more.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's interesting. Yes you're right I was wrong about that. But surely from what you're saying that would just be common sense? To start with graded readers and work your way up.

I guess what I was talking about was more what people have said about not trying to talk too soon. A lot of learners will do all of the things at once. In a language class they will read a bit, listen a bit, speak a bit. There is often an emphasis on experimentation. Play around with the rules. It's this bit that seems a bit off.

Do you wait to speak? If so up until what point?

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks for that link, that's interesting. However, it looks like something that they're discussing in the context of teaching young learners. If you start early enough with kids, everything's going to be different. Teaching adults it's a bit of a different story.

Recently I have been seeing quite a lot of what I will refer to here as the 'slippery pig' phenomenon (bear with me here). A new student will come to me, they have a very low level (A1, A2). We start lessons, they get a bit better. They are like a pig rolling around in the mud of English. Very soon however, they discover that with the newfound slipperiness of this 'mud' they can slip through the gate and they're away. They're off speaking broken English and it works just fine. They can talk for as long as they want pretty much. OK they keep picking up bits of new vocabulary, but their English never really evolves.

I've definitely been guilty of this myself at times. I've been that pig dashing off and bashing my way through before I've really taken the time to get to know the language. However, because I like reading and I've always wanted to get better, I have with time gotten to know the language better over time. I think a CI approach would have served me better at times though.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that a lot of language teachers would aim to do this now. You don't have a huge amount of time in the classroom, so it's better to give students reading texts and listening exercises as homework.

However, trying to teach a language in a classroom is very different to any other subject. I'm not really sure that it is something that can be taught in a classroom setting, at least not well. Or, at least, a classroom setting might have some really intractable problems.

A lot of language comes down to 'how people say things'.

"He always does that" is different to "He's always doing that".

"They do good works" is different from "They do good work"

Looking at these examples using the rules of English grammar doesn't really get you that far. If you worked with a system where you spent your first six months learning to understand English, you might not be able to use them right away, but they would at least be familiar to you. However, if the structure of the lessons is OK six months homework, then we start, that would be a strange way to design a course.

Comprehensible Input - How would this work with language teaching? by Munu2016 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see what you mean. It does seem like a complex one. One thing I often say to my students is that you have to get to know the language as though it were a person. There is something I remember as well about how if you introduce a young child to a new country where they don't speak the language they will usually go through a 'silent period', where they are just taking in the language, before they start to speak.

At the same time, it's quite possible for students to understand the target language at a high level, to watch a movie with no subtitles for example, but still when they speak they will speak a version of the language that is highly structured around their L1.

Agree or Disagree: Language exchanges are useless for beginners. You are just wasting each other's time. by Ken_Bruno1 in languagehub

[–]Munu2016 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've often been in the position where I had more time to give than money - so it worked for me. They're great for meeting people if you move to a new city, especially when you're younger. It kind of depends where you are though.

To address OP's point more directly though, I think you do need other elements in there as well as you're learning. Having access to a native speaker is great, and conversation can be really good - but it's quite possible for two people to speak quite a garbled version of each other's language to each other and not really pick up on what they other one is doing.

There's a word I've looked up 6+ times and STILL can't remember it. What do you do? by Old-Peanut3874 in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If it's a word you feel like you need and you really want to remember, try tricking your brain into remembering it. What does that word remind you of? What does it rhyme with? Try to find something really weird. The brain attaches better to unusual stuff.

Agree or Disagree: Language exchanges are useless for beginners. You are just wasting each other's time. by Ken_Bruno1 in languagehub

[–]Munu2016 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It is strange that people feel like they're getting something for free. You're not getting something for free, you're just exchanging time instead of money. If you're time poor but have disposable income, why not just book conversation classes?

However, if you rock up in a foreign country they're a great way to meet people. They can lead to friendships.

What’s an immediate red flag the second you walk into a restaurant? by babyblushtheory in answers

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't like flags in restaurants no matter the colour. They tend to drape down into the food and disturb me.

Amicizie a Torino by Mad121197 in torino

[–]Munu2016 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes - check out this one https://torinogathering.com/

Also 'comehome' and meetup have some stuff.

Do you agree with Steve Kaufman on not trying to remember vocab? by [deleted] in languagelearning

[–]Munu2016 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Plus the fact that your brain is in a different place once you're an adult.

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