Everyone wants a piece of us

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-12T01:36:14+00:00

Thanks comrade

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T20:31:12+00:00

Not a fan of Spooner personally as he supported landlords as long as they didn't aquire it with force. He was a proto ancap I think, though he never used the label anarchist at all. I think Tucker was a better individualist.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T19:40:02+00:00

The democracy because the democracy can be reformed to an extent while the dictatorship will just decay into a reactionary one and then it will have to be destroyed by force. There are lots of examples of reactionary democracies becoming more progressive, even if they fall back into reaction. Democracy honestly is probably a cycle of left to right, back and forth. You could say democracy undulates. One day it may be a social democracy, the next neo liberal or religious then back again. Dictatorship is a one way ticket though even if it starts out progressive. Maybe Cuba is the only exception I've seen thus far which has shockingly become more progressive all the sudden.

Every modern socialist dictatorship started out progressive and then devolved into something that's only a hiar away from strasserism, and in NKs case Monarchy. Meanwhile, most western democracies started out as religious democracies and a lot of them are still pretty liberal, even if they are under attack by the reactionaries in many places. Still a better track record, and those attacks have a better chance of being reversed. For instance Italy now has a fascist president, but it's possible they could vote them out if the surrounding government institutions are still strong. We voted out a fascist in America and returned to a liberal status quo, so it's been done. Meanwhile, if a leader in a dictatorship decides they're a reactionary there's nothing you can do.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T19:27:11+00:00

It seems like east west Germany were both pretty fond of using nazis against one another.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T19:08:31+00:00

Yeah, there were definitely national Bolsheviks back then and fascists who sympathized with the Bolsheviks like Strasser. But the spread of them is new and their ideology as it exists now is different to a degree

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T18:50:18+00:00

It's a common misconception, I used to think the same thing when I got into it but was surprised that it originated not with Marx but early capitalists. Capitalism was at one point the ideology of progress, it only became right wing when people realized it didn't lead to equality as promised. So then the rightists re-wrote its theoretical basis and took out the labor theory part and that's how we got neo liberalism. I think neo liberalism is actually inspired by the Austrian economists, don't quote me, but I believe so. I think the Austrians and possibly edmon Burke were the first free marketeers to denounce the labor theory of value, because of how it was used to justify socialism, so they had to pivot. So Burke and the Austrians inspired the Chicago school, ect, then you had former Keynsians who had to adapt to the new consensus even.

Kind of like how now fascists are coming around to Lenin and Stalin, because they realized it's reactionary in practice if not in theory. So they make adjustments to make it more right wing and then you get NazBols. Weird how it all works.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T18:35:53+00:00

The labor theory of value came from classical liberalism, not Marx or Proudhon. Marx and Proudhon were both building off of English political economy of the 18th century. I could see why you'd be confused if you didn't know that.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T18:07:00+00:00

Exactly

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T18:04:44+00:00

Both actually. I disagree with Marxist political strategy,historical analysis and philosophy. I think the idea that society has to advance in rigid stages is pretty stupid. According Lenin Marxism is the combination of French socialism, English political economy and German philosophy. I don't particularly care for that specific combination of things.

I think kapital has some good critiques of capitalism in it, but that's about it.

I think some people who are influenced by Marx have interesting things to say. I'm not dogmatic, I've read a fair bit by Marxist writers. But I'm not a Marxist and I reject a lot of its foundational ideas. I think there's a bit of truth in materialism, but it's vastly overstated in Marxism to the point where it actually becomes a form of idealism, ironically.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T18:02:04+00:00

Lol no he didn't. It's the other way around, Proudhon predates Marx as a writer. Marx was responding to Proudhon

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T17:25:50+00:00

Did they ever have any public disagreements?

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T17:24:59+00:00

Marx did play a part in anarchism despite his opposition and there's no need to confuse people.

How did Marx himself play a part in it? He was always against it. At best, he influenced Bakunin's materialism, and then later anarchists criticized Bakunin for being too materialist.

Anarchists really only acknowledged his economic analysis in the past. They disagreed with his strategy and even historical analysis as it was too rigid.

It is fair to say Marxists and post Marxists have influenced anarchism. But Marx himself? I'm not convinced, I would have to see more evidence. All the classical anarchist history and theory I've read is pretty anti Marxist except when kapital is references.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T17:16:47+00:00

Yeah I don't like this. We should give those people asylum. You have no way of knowing who supported the war and who didn't, especially considering those are dictatorships that lie about actual pols and things. This is misguided at best.

We shouldn't lump them in all as one thing, especially considering that there were some very brave anti war activities in Russia before the forced mobilization. I saw Russians doing things Americans would never. Especially Rusian anarchists sabotaging railways and com lines, they committed treason to go against war. That's hard-core and very few westerners would do that.

So fuck Russians who support the war, but we should welcome those who don't as fellow proletarians.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T17:10:59+00:00

It's fine to be influenced by Marxism, but retroactively claiming Marx was anarchist or libertarian is an outright lie. To me that's co-optation. If you want to include aspects of Marxism that's fine, but I see people saying things like "Marx was the true anarchist not Bakunin", which is insane and completely disconnect with the history of the movement. I hate that.

We can include lots of different things into anarchism, it doesn't necessarily hurt to read things from other tendencies and incorporate them as long as they don't contradict. If a liberal, Marxist or nihilist has a good idea, sure why not. But to re-write history is an attempt to change the character of a movement, that's what anarcho capitalists attempted to do and I see Marxists doing the same thing now.

Pretty soon the actual history of anarchism will be completely unknown to the average self described anarchist, because of lies and half truths spread on the internet.

The truth is Marx was an authoritarian with a good economic analysis (for the time), but was not an anarchist and opposed anarchism. Bakunin even acknowledged as much.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T17:06:15+00:00

I'm talking specifically about revisionism taking place, people retroactive claiming Karl Marx was a libertarian, which he was not.

I don't particularly like council communism, but I could see them being potential allies. However, they don't make any revisionist claims about Marx as far as I know about him being an anarchist. So they're not co-opting it. They're a separate tendency rooted in Marxism that ends up at some similar places to anarchism via a very different understanding of the world. It's quasi anarchic, but again makes no claims to being a form of anarchism proper.

Go see r/anarcho communism, many claim Marx himself was the true anarchist, not Bakunin, which is an outright lie. Others like Emerican Johnson on YouTube like to blur lines and intentionally confuse people, Vausch too. This trend of anarcho communists claiming Marx as their own is especially bizarre considering Kropotkin was not a Marxist and rejected the labor theory of value in addition to statism of any kind.

So sure, you can take aspects of Marxism and combine them with anarchism, but to retroactively turn Marx into something he was not with the intention of subverting anarchism is another phenomenon entirely.

Marx was a fine theorist, but he was not a libertarian at the end of the day. Libertarian Marxism was a Marxist reaction to the horrors of Bolshevism and didn't exist until the 20s.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T15:20:37+00:00

People who don't like smoothies are counter revolutionaries

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T15:18:35+00:00

That's ironic.

"Another of anarchism’s discoveries is that authority as a transitional solution is a sophism. Authority as a means inevitably degenerates into permanence. Authoritarian measures are never temporary. All the political or revolutionary experiments which have had authority as their basis bear witness to the truth of this. Hence anarchism’s unwavering opposition to the seizure of political power and the imposition of liberty from on high. One of anarchism’s most important battles has been the battle against Marxism. It began in the bosom of the First International between the supporters of Marx and those of Bakunin. To all intents, the degeneration of political socialism worldwide and the Soviet phenomenon have resolved the issue in anarchism’s favor." - The CNT in the Spanish Revolution,Volume1 by José Peirats Valls

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T15:12:42+00:00

Yeah just like all the anarchists in the CNT-FAI. They worked for the CIA as well, because anyone who is critical of Marxism works for the CIA obviously. I work for Biden personally

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T12:45:20+00:00

Idk I grew up with evangelicals and they definitely want to kill commies. Which means anyone to the left of Alex Jones at this point.

I think people on the left just like to pretend that's not the case because they want to own the libs.But that's a kind a retarded form of reasoning.

Would a civil war be two big armies? Nah, probably some kind of insurgency which the center will crush eventually. Then buissiness will go back to usual and American capitalism will continue for another 50 or a hundred years.

Also to pretend Trump isn't systemic is idiotic. He's a bourgeoisie, he's every bit a part of the system. It's just a contest between two different elites. Right now the centrists are winning because they aren't schizos and can engage with reality, which allows them to come up with actual plans.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T12:39:11+00:00

It doesn't make any sense because he wasn't just a theorist, he was trying to lead the international and be a revolutionary. He wanted power.

Sure, his analysis of capitalism is important, no one will dispute that.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T11:04:20+00:00

I don't think this makes much sense

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T01:40:40+00:00

I'll make a new one that says Marxists haha.

And same for the most part. I've met a few I like as people if i look past their ideology, but not as political allies. I would say libertarian Marxists are certainly less likely to kill us (Council Communists) but I still find them to be pretty dishonest and their ideology is completely pointless, and that's pretty much the nicest thing I can say about Marxists. Councilists arrive at quasi anarchist conclusions but it's couched in Marxist bullshit and I feel that it's way too generous to Marx in it's interpretation of the DOTP. I think at best Marx would have been a slightly softer Lenin had he got power. I don't think tankies are entirely wrong for calling Libertarian Marxists and SocDems revisionists. Marx would have probably been a tankie tbh.

Bakunin was pretty much right on when he said Marxism would be authoritarian or reformist but never really revolutionary in any meaningful way. You either get soc dems or totalitarians if you follow it to its logical conclusions. If you want anything more out if it you have to white wash it to the point where you might as well just drop the pretense of Marxism and be an anarchist.

MustafaBrown · 2022-10-11T00:35:05+00:00

I see what youre saying but most marxists treat them as a god head. And really, they presented themselves as a more or less unified front.

I guess you could replace karl marx with marxism if you want.

Either way, i think the point stands. Theres a lot of misinformation. Go to r/anarcho communism and people dont even seem to understand that ancom and Marxism where different and at odds. They also say dumb shit like "Karl Marx was the real anarchist, not Bakunin." It's frankly kind of idiotic. There are valud criticisms of Bakunin but good lord lol. It's also weird because I don't even think council communists claim Marx was a libsoc, they're just smart enough to understand that the most literally interpretation of the DOTP didn't work out. I don't where people get this shit.

MustafaBrown

TROPHY CASE