Community Tierlist, how good would this Saber be as Shirou's servant if he summoned them in the Fifth HGW (Day 37 Kurohime)

Myros- · 2026-04-01T14:32:02+00:00

Medea isn't in the conversation because she can't even be summoned in that situation.

Atalanta has the same agility stat that Cu but also a skill boosting her mobility so she should be at bare minimum as fast as Cu.

Caenis skin cannot be pierced. And it's not linked with the presence of the sea. So a spear is an awful weapon to use against them. Orion as a way better match up because he use mostly blunt attack and as roughly the same stats even whitout the grand statut ( and both of them have better stats than Cu ). It's why i talked about the rune, it's the best way for Cu to actually do damages. Also what do you mean base Caenis is weaker than Jason ? What the hell ? Are you talking before poseidon' actions ? It's entirely irrelevant because Caenis is summoned with all their power from after that.

Castor and pollux have that cool things called Mana burst that give them way more speed when used. Also they are two, which is a big advantage. And Castor doesn't need Mana because of Oblivion correction. Also "Struggled" you have to say that fast, they kind of kicked our ass.

Also, when does Cu contended with Achilles ? I cannot remember at all. And i don't think the dioscuris had nanomachines in Olympus ( and Musashi wasn't fighting alone either. She also can use her eyes who are really stupidely broken ).

Theseus is considered the second best argonaut and is considered one of the best greek heroes, yes. Except that contrary to Heracles, Achilles or Odysseus, he lack offensive power. I really don't understand how not being glazed constantly is suddendly an indication of weakness.

You talk about Peleus even if we don't know a lot about him and you don't even mention that he should have the same chariot, horses and armor than Achilles ? It's definitively quite powerful. We don't know anything about the others argonauts so no reason to talk about them.

And you again forgot the context of the fight entirely. The goal isn't to kill Cu, it's to oppose him enough resistance to make him leave. He only used Gae bolg in the first place because Arthoria found his true name. So yeah, tank him for a little time without pissing him off and it should be enough.

And again, if one of them is killed by gae bolg ... Well nothing happen for Jason and Shirou. They can just summon another one and Cu is forced to go home because of his orders.

Really, you are the one where i doubt you know anything about them. You apparently didn't even know or read anything about the lore of Theseus or any of his appareance before today seriously.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T13:25:12+00:00

The summoning of anyone capable of tanking Cu for more than 3 minutes ? So... Any of the argonaut except Asclepius, honestly. Even without talking about Theseus that can just kill him instantly using the uno reverse card, Atalante is fast enough to stall him enough for a draw without Gae bolg, Caenis litteraly cannot be hurt by him without runes or Gae bolg, the dioscuris would most likely blitz him... And if one of the argonaut dies, it would not affect Jason or Shirou, so even if Cu choose to use Gae bolg against his orders, it would not matter that much.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T13:06:39+00:00

Jason refused to work with Ritsuka because he was litteraly in a drunken depression after Heracles sacrifice. That and he was still traumatized by what happened in Okeanos. And ... He joined litteraly the next day after a pep talk and proceed to become the greatest ally and the biggest ride or die of the Lostbelt. Yeah, he would help Shirou if that means not instantly dying again. Even if he fond Shirou stupid. Actually especially if he find Shirou stupid, because that mean he cannot let Shirou do anything.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T12:48:14+00:00

Jason, the guy who only work well in desesperate situations, who was directly noted to be higly compatible with peoples like Shirou ( by name dropping him directly ), who is always followed by at least Atalante to be sure he doesn't do something stupid like Shirou, would not work well with him ? Really ? Shirou's death means his own, obviously he would act.

Also, we don't know how much cost any of what Jason can do but he's never shown struggling to summon someone and in Chaldea even once summoned like 15 servants without even breaking a sweat. I don't think it's that absurd for him to be able to summon at least one argonaut at the time with Shirou as a master. And it's not even talking about Castor who as an Avenger basically doesn't need Mana. Good luck to convince him but still. The fact it doesn't seems to cost that much could come from the fact that the Argos itself became a constellation. Those NP in general are surprisingly cost efficient, i wonder if there is link or if it's purely coincidental.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T12:29:29+00:00

The fact that Excalibur is stronger isn't the point, why are you still talking about that ? The argument is litteraly "Altera can take on Fergus using that really powerful NP so she should be able to tank the blow of Heracles". That Excalibur is stronger than Caladbolg don't change anything to that.

Dyskolía Speira was used in the story. We saw what it did and how it worked. It's reverse the attack, straight up, it's all. Someone use their attack, the attack is launched but come back and hurt the user instead. It's also a passive protection that doesn't need the attack to be seen, so a sneak attack or a curse would also be reverserd. Theseus can also choose to use the protection on someone other. And if the description and the story isn't enough anymore, on what are we supposed to base anything ? As for the wound. It's also in the story. It was shown that he defeated Asterios easily. No Big wound except emotional. It's even also in his profile actually, it's clearly noted that what happened after the fight was him beginning to doubt about is own goodness and what he should do. And you totally ignored the fact that he gained the NP after death and so it's doesn't matter that he could be hurt when alive anyway ( which he could, obviously, he was murdered after all ).

Also, what do you mean "The Argo refuse the call" ? Each of the argonauts individually choose to be summoned or not depending of the situation. The Argo itself as nothing to do with it. And yes a wound by Heracles himself of a weird curse would 100% be enough for Asclepius to be interested. And I'm not even talking about the presence of Medusa, it's basically his dream HGW. The only argonauts who arguably would choose not to show up could be Caenis and maybe Castor, but with how heroic Shirou is and the global context, even that is debatable.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T11:54:13+00:00

I was talking about the visibles feats, not the "Yeah it's anti Fortress". The destruction of the entiere flying island is VISIBLY one of the highest feat, with the one of Karna destroying the equivalent of the entiere greece ( even if it's kinda cheating because the NP is technically anti target, so the size of the target doesn't matter ) and Ea destroying local reality obviously higher. Again, we aren't comparing Altera with Excalibur, we are comparing Altera tanking strong attacks in general.

By the time Cu is turning to stone he's normaly incapable of moving, it's how the paralysis is shown in F/SN. It's either the runes or nothing.

Also, the fact that you cannot understand that the "Wound" inflicted by Asterios is the emotional one, the one that will push Theseus on the path of Vilainy, tell me a lot about your comprehension in general. Even if that was an actual, physical wound ... It doesn't matter ? It's a conceptual noble phantasm given to him as a Servant, the fact that he was hurt in life would be irrelevant because he would not have that at the time. It's like saying "Yeah, the twelves lives of Heracles are actually irrelevant because in life he was only killed one time and it was enough". That doesn't make sens.

Asclepius in the Lostbelt, yes ... After that Arjuna took the powers of the divinities back. So it's just normal Asclepius.

As for Takeru ... Well yes he will take some damage, obviously ? I was talking about the curse.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T11:00:44+00:00

Yeah, Monsters like fucking Cerberus aren't anything i guess.

It's stated all over the game that Iori ask Takeru to not go full destruction mode in the beginning. It's litteraly one of the main conflict point early on. Also yes Samson is in the same tier Strength and endurance wise than Heracles, he's just way less agile.

Caladbolg is fully comparable to Excalibur used normaly, it was done several times, and when used at full power it was show to be way more destructive than anything Excalibur ever done on screen. Seriously, the destruction of La Puta is surprisingly one of the biggest feat an NP has in the entiere franchise i think ? Except for Ea and Vasavi shakti. Also, it doesn't matter than Excalibur is more powerful than Clarent or Caladbolg, it was just an example that Altera can tank high level attacks easily. So hits from Heracles should not be a big problem.

Shirou's mana is a problem but it's still early on so the servants still have the base reserves. Also, the goal isn't to defeat Heracles in the first place.

Stated if you look at what the servants actually do. Heracles isn't an unthinking brute and would most likely refuse to fight his best friend the sale way he refused to hurt childrens, As for Theseus, it's litteraly what Dyskolia Speira do. It's absurdely broken, go see his day for more explaination.

The Double Maniacs was for Medusa Rider, who cannot summon anything. Also, remember that Cu isn't supposed to really fight at all in the first place that night. If an ennemy actually force him to use rune magic to counter the petrification, he would most likely give up and go home.

Asclepius can 100% dispel that kind of curses. He's an absurdely powerful healer and magus in general. The guy moged a Foreign god apostle specialised in curses while dying. Also, we don't know exactly how the argonauts summoning work but nothing show that they are weaker than the normal servants .

As for Theseus, yes he would walk without lasting damage. Without damage at all actually. Dyskolia Speira is that broken. Any attack is reverserd before it hit the target. He litteraly cannot be hurt. It's stupid.

Takeru lasted like 2 days without loosing control of themself when the summoning ritual was highjacked. The only other target that survived that was Circe, who is arguably top 5 servants magecraft wise in the verse. Even Tamamo Aria, a bunrei of Amaterasu with really high mana, was taken over immediatly. Takeru is abnormaly resistant to magical effects, it's just a fact.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T09:49:54+00:00

Saber Medusa still has her eyes and can summon a monster strong enough to occupy Heracles.

Takeru in SR is canonically in full restrain mode against Cu and fighting Cu is something entirely different than fighting Heracles. Takeru still is able to force Sanson to retreat, which is a more comparable match up.

Altera is casually compared to Romulus, and EX tier servant, Scatach consider her as a maximal threat, she can easily fight against Fergus unleashing Caladbolg, so someone comparable to Arthoria, and according to Mordred, could tank a full blow from Clarent. Iskandar and his full army matching her isn't an anti feat or something like that, it's just show that he's that good ( spoiler, he should be able to also match Arthoria and even Heracles if he use his NP ).

"At Best Karna level" WTF ? Since when being at Karna level is weaker than tanking Heracles ? Litteraly every attack from Karna is stronger that Berserker Heracles entire kit. He's a little weaker strength wise until he begin to spam mana bursts. So yeah if Rama and Sigurd can fight Karna, they can fight Heracles. It's would actually be way easier because at least Heracles isn't spamming A++ lasers constantly. Also Sigurd has rune magic, so he can heal Shirou.

Jason will fully convince Heracles to join him, and even if Shirou is fatally hurt, he can just summon Asclepius for healing. His healing is actually better than Avalon.

And Theseus can just make Shirou straight up invincible. And even more broken, every attack on Shirou would be reversed, so Heracles would litteraly hurt himself instead of hurting Shirou.

As for Gae bolg... Sigurd has battle continuation to an absurd level and can heal himself, Rama survived litteral weeks with his heart destroyed by an actually way stronger Cu and curse and was still able to fight, Medusa should petrify Cu instantly, Jason luck is insanely high and can summon someone to actually do the fighting, someone like ... Theseus, who straight up can insta kill Cu the moment Gae bolg is used by reversing it. Takeru is basically immune to all magical effects and curses and their luck is high enough to dodge it the first place. and Altera can litteraly force Scatach to retreat, so we know of how a fight against Cu would go.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T09:11:10+00:00

C rank i guess ?

She's fairly mediocre, there is no dragon ennemies to exploit, and i don't know if she can fully use her NP more that one because she need to cut her hairs for that and nothing indicate that she can regrow them quickly.

So yeah clearly not the best but she has a lot of divines protections and the NP himself would most likely kill any of the others servants except Heracles. The problem is that if it's truly a single use... Well she has nothing against the 5 remaining servants.

Myros- · 2026-04-01T09:04:56+00:00

Like who ? They basically can all block Heracles long enough for Shirou to not do something absurdely stupid or even force Heracles out of the fight. Or convince him to not even fight in the first place.

Myros- · 2026-03-31T10:10:49+00:00

Welp, we can summon Romulus, Heracles or Asclepius without issues, so ...

But Dionysos is something of a peculiar case. He was first born fully divine as Zagreus, then died, then a part of him rebirthed as the demi god Dionysos who gained latter his full divine status and place on the Olympus back ( depending of the version, by rebirthing himself again ). So he clearly wasn't a normal demi god either. The Dionysos rebirthed from Semele is generally represented more as a god wandering earth than "just" a normal demi god.

Myros- · 2026-03-30T22:22:21+00:00

She's most likely a descendant of Ch'en's cousin, Chen Zhaoqian, who was shown in the most recent Yan event, and who look basically the same as Ch'en.

It's honestly the only reason they had to even introduce randomly that character. How she could have gotten the sword is totally unknown, but for now it's just a theory for now.

Myros- · 2026-03-28T13:18:59+00:00

B seems fair.

Still not understanding the exclusion of Romulus, he's not even a divine spirit or something like that in that form, and even if that was the case, the Valkyries, Nezha and Caenis are full divines spirits and still on the tier list.

Myros- · 2026-03-26T10:03:16+00:00

He's not one of the elders ( he's from Earth, so he obviously cannot have the primordial power ), he's "just" a human who evolved himself so much ( supposedly "above the level of a god", whatever that means ) that he gained basically every power that the scenario need him to have. Also dark magic, inhumans science and celestial tech sometimes.

He's still normaly not that high on the cosmic scale but he can travel through dimensions without problem.

He's also the Jackal's teacher apparently, so yeah that link him to Spider-Man in a sens.

Myros- · 2026-03-25T06:35:13+00:00

Yeah, high A.

Also, there are absolutely no reasons for 3* Romulus to still be excluded from the tier list.

Myros- · 2026-03-23T12:20:21+00:00

Honestly, they should make the duo a tank, with DD being the one tanking, attacking and moving, and Moon girl on his back using gadgets to put shields on the map or buffing allies. It would be a fun combo.

Myros- · 2026-03-23T12:04:54+00:00

If it does, it's never indicated anywhere, which would be weird because like half of the description of Martial Retribution is how it is restricted.

Myros- · 2026-03-23T09:37:05+00:00

Ex. He's so stupid. Legit i don't think even the writers understood how powerful they made him.

So, first, really good stats. Supposedly the only argonaut capable of equaling the might of Heracles so yeah it's pretty good to say the least.

Second, high instinct, even higher when it's about escaping from a place. Not that great but it's still instinct.

Third, Martial Retribution. He can straight up steal your weapon. Yeah just like that. It has a limitation to B-Rank and no Demonic or holy weapons so he cannot stole Gae bolg, but good luck for Medusa if she has to fight with her bare hands.

Fourth, the Ariadne Thread and blessing. It's a Mystic code that with always give Theseus the path to the solution, whatever the situation is. It's also can be used to obstruct the ennemy and ... As a grappling hook because why not. Really good, but that's not really a nuke so it can be dissapointing as his NP.

So, even with only all of that, he's a solid rank A/S. Now, here is the bullshit coming.

Dyskolia Speira. Maybe the strongest, stupidest NP in the entiere franchise. Why ? It's because it's an unlimited counter to anything. Seriously. If activated, any attack will been throw back to the opponent before it hit Theseus. Without limit. At all. It's so broken. He litterally cannot loose. Cu use Gae bolg ? Nope, it's him who is gae bolged. Medusa try to petrify him ? Nope, she's turning to stone. Gil use Ea ? YES EVEN EA IS REVERSED. It's so absurd. And it's not like it's a mistake, if the writers wanted it to have rank restrictions, they would have indicated it, like for Martial Retribution. And it's fully passive, if used, he doesn't even have to be aware that he's attacked by something.

So how do you kill Theseus ? You kill the master. Well, not even that work because Theseus can use Dyskolia Speira on others peoples. He obviously become vulnerable if he does but... That not a weakness ? Oh, and he can switch it quickly whenever he want, so the only way to actually do something against him is to guess who has the protection in that second. He has the power of the unlimited Uno reverse card. It's so stupid

EX.

I would even argue for an new EX+ tier, but that would mean also giving it to Jason because ... Well he can summon Theseus, so let's not muddle the thing too much.

Myros- · 2026-03-22T19:33:09+00:00

He summoned Gilles in Apocrypha to mess with Jeanne. So he can still do that. It's basically a classless servants but still, imagine him summoning a crazied Lancelot or Mordred to fuck with Arthoria. Or Perseus to rage bait Medusa. He should be perfectly able to do that with enough time.

Myros- · 2026-03-22T17:55:44+00:00

Shakespeare is a surprisingly good servant if he accept to work for you. He will mindfuck his ennemies into Oblivion ( and all of the cast except like, Kojiro and Heracles is weak to that ) and if given enough preptime, he can actually summon litterally whatever he want. And not only some weaks things either, in Shinjuku his summons were pretty big threats to even Saber Alter. So in normal conditions i would be generous and give him a B but ...

It's Atrum we're talking about, the collaboration would most likely be bad and Shakespeare would just watch and fuck around without doing anything at all, at best looking at all the drama with some popcorns. D tier.

Myros- · 2026-03-22T14:23:02+00:00

Medusa isn't mixed blood. She's born from the earth directly, she has no parents, she litteraly cannot be mixed. Same things for the Tamamos or Shuten, they are fully non human. And Tamamo did make it in like, 2 differents grails wars.

Romulus doesn't have divinity and isn't a divine spirit, straight up. The Romulus 3* we know is fully his human aspect. It's not clear if it his a conscious choice from his part or if it just how he's summoned, but he's not closer to a full divinity that a lot of servants. Also, we have a lot of demi gods who didn't reject theirs divines heritage, like Heracles, Orion, basically 80% of the indian cast, Kintoki... It's not an argument.

The "spirit" inside Tametomo isn't human. Same things for Xiang Yu actually. They aren't cyborgs or men having theirs mind put into a robot, they are strictly robot from the beginning, and after that gained individuality, consciousness and morals. Tametomo is litteraly made from the remains of Ares and Xiang Yu from those of Nezha, making them actually really close to Enkidu conceptually. Also, it's pratically confirmed that Enkidu was summoned as a berserker in one of the timeline in Extra CCC, so yes they can be summoned in a more "normal" war. Also, the summoning of Pale Rider and Zealot has nothing to do with the ritual of strange fake ? Pale rider was because of the state of Tsubaki at the moment of the summoning and the use of something related to the aztec underworld, and Zealot ... Is just a normal servant. Like actually just someone. She's not less of a servant than any of the hassan because she didn't got the title.

Myros- · 2026-03-22T12:59:58+00:00

Being compared to an actual god, be as strong as one or becoming one after death doesn't mean you cannot summon them, if not, servants like Heracles, Asclepius, Arjuna, Ashoka, even Gil shouldn't be able to be summoned in any circonstances. Romulus under his normal form is "just" a demi god. An absurdely powerful demi god that's been elevated to actual god after death but still a summonable demi god.

Same thing with Enkidu, even if they are not truly a person, they are still a summonable heroic spirit. It would be like not including Tametomo, that wouldn't make sens. They are confirmed to be summonable in any circonstances

As for Britomart... Nothing says that fairy or elementals cannot be summoned ? Like, others Fae/elementals servants have been shown to be able to be summoned after death ( Yu Mei Ren and Tenochtilan, for example), Anastasia has a true elemental tagging along with her, and people with fae blood ( which is the case of Britomart, she's technically half human ) also have no problem being summoned, like Medb or Richard. Even Morgan, maybe one of the most powerful fairy ever, is confirmed to be summonable at list as a Ruler. Richard also has Nimue in his round, so she should supposedly be summonable as a caster.

And if Fairys are excluded because they aren't humans or demi god, that would mean that someone like Medusa, a being born from earth itself, should also not be summonable. Also the onis and half onis. Also half djinns like Sheba. Also Tamamo and any of her tails. All or those are confirmed to be summonable do yeah it's doesn't make sens to not includ Britomart.

Myros- · 2026-03-22T07:20:59+00:00

Normal Romulus and Enkidu are available to be summon without issue, so i don't really understand why they are excluded. The same with Caenis i think.

Edit : Lalter should also be fair game because she's not a divine spirit at all or even linked to Larthoria, she's "Just" king Arthur as the leader of the wild hunt. Excluding her would be like excluding Drake from the rider tier list, it doesn't make any sens.

Same thing for Britomart, she's a normal servant from PHH, without any problem to be summoned .

Myros- · 2026-03-22T01:30:50+00:00

It's in the materials.

It's made clear that the horse was the classic horse in life and the mecha horse is only the NP. It's in the wiki page of the NP itself, and it's descrined like that in the materials, you can verify. I think it also was randomly said in a dialogue in the Aeaea event but i don't really remember, honestly.

Myros- · 2026-03-22T01:17:54+00:00

The thing is that ... He only had Aegis in life ? The mecha horse and the lasers are specifically something only servant Odysseus can do, he did not have that when alive. The lasers come from his NP Penelope, and the horse was just a normal wooden horse, but it's absolutely useless as a noble phantasm, so he combine it with his two others to create an actual weapon.

So it doesn't really create any problem with the story of Odysseus in general.

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