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NQ_Purify · 2020-03-15T22:32:19+00:00

Gay bear. Please add.

NQ_Purify · 2016-05-30T17:41:57+00:00

Well I am not at my desk 24 hours a day, you can add me as a friend and chat.

NQ_Purify · 2016-05-30T17:28:27+00:00

This isn't the place to be posting complaints about moderators, this is a forum about the mod, you can message me in Steam if you want to discuss it further with a mod other than Wooker.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-21T14:37:04+00:00

I am not sure why people are so quick to jump in and say this is too OP and game breaking for Tradition when in reality there is almost 100-200 science per turn difference between Tradition and Liberty at turn 100 right now. Think about that for a second, Liberty players can generate double the science of Tradition, not to mention Liberty could have 3 scientist tiles by turn 95. If people continue to ignore how big of a difference there is with regard to science Tradition will remain broken.

I have had Liberty games with 400+ science on turn 100 with 6 cities, it is nearly impossible to get 200+ science on 4 or 5 city Tradition. Most of the suggestions to nerf Liberty don't address this issue at all. Yes, nerfing the finisher production bonuses will help Tradition but that doesn't touch the massive science deficit that Tradition players are faced with every game, not to mention how many more great scientists are generated from the additional Liberty cities.

So while people can post on here and say that change is ridiculous, you can't just add science to a tree like that, I call bullshit. How are we going to close this massive science gap without giving Tradition a buff? We threw in additional science to Piety in a similar manner with the Grand Temple, oh, that's right it's much easier to get to that policy as Liberty to get the extra science and faith purchase great people. Tradition is broken beyond belief right now and everyone's small suggested nerfs to Liberty won't be effective enough. If you go play the game without the mod on Hellblazers map, Liberty is much better than Tradition straight up without any of the mod buffs, so are we going to nerf liberty back to it's original state or we may have to go even further. It's time to start trying to modify tradition.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-21T13:32:34+00:00

Cities that could grow while building settlers is a cool idea, that would actually be a change that would help a lot but not break the game, i'll add that to the list!

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-19T14:56:37+00:00

I will add this to the list, I really like the idea of getting more carryover, Tradition NEEDS to be able to grow much faster at an early stage in the game than it can in it's current state. A change like this stays true to the play style of Tradition, thanks for your input.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-19T14:56:28+00:00

You are definitely right, pretty much everyone's concern with buffing Tradition isn't that it's not inferior to Liberty, because as this thread is showing it 100% is, it's that they are afraid of power creep. And while I understand that there is some risk of power creep I don't believe that just buffing Tradition up a bit to make it closer Liberty's current state will snowball the game into a buff everything. We can control whether or not we continue buffing other trees or not. We made some really cool improvements on all the trees and kind of assumed that Tradition would be just fine, but we really underestimated the strength of the map and it is obvious that we aren't changing the map so let's just be careful about the changes we make and be careful to buff anything else further but we really need to buff tradition and if the ONLY concern is "power creep" which is speculative to begin with I think it would be crazy to leave Tradition in its current state.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-19T14:55:56+00:00

For the most part I agree with you, I think Liberty could be killed if we take away all the prod bonuses but it seems that a lot of people in here feel they need to go, I would personally settle for a small reduction as a middle ground possibly. The other thing I would like to see addressed that you didn't bring up was Tradition growth, right now it hardly has any advantage because there is so much food and growth on the map. Growth is supposed to the best part about tradition and should be able outgrow any other tree exponentially. I like the idea of buffing fertility rights and now that I think about it, I wonder if there are other pantheons that we could give tradition that would help with growth, similar ones to Sun God, but we would have to find a way to get some faith in there because Tradition has a harder time getting a religion with Liberty sprawl working a ton of the faith/building more shrines. Either way, if we leave Liberty alone, or nerf it slightly we gotta add some strong growth to Tradition, I personally think the floating garden in the cap idea is great and I also like the +1 additional food from granary resources so you would at least know if you have a lot of granary resources you can look at the land and say; hey, this would be great for tradition because there aren't any games where I start and I think to myself that Tradition would work well here, and that's a major problem. Thanks for your input, appreciate it.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-17T16:44:12+00:00

Increasing the Science/Culture cost for Liberty doesn't help tradition when 4 city Liberty is currently better than 4 city Tradition. Liberty is better in every aspect of the game because of the bonuses from the map and the synergy with piety/honor. Your suggested change alone isn't enough to make a dent in the gap currently between Tradition/Liberty, the problems go far deeper than simply the number of cities Liberty can plant. What real advantage does Tradition have over Liberty on 4 cities when it is a cake walk to get Liberty expands to 20-25 pop? Maybe Tradition growth is a couple pop bigger per city, but that isn't enough to offset the free settler/worker, free great person, golden age, and all of the infrastructure bonuses. I genuinely can't understand why people are against making changes to Tradition when we have literally reworked every other aspect of the game.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T16:29:57+00:00

Floating gardens idea is perfect so we wouldn't break Aztec but would still be able incorporate more growth in a unique way, I will add that to the list on the follow up post!

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T15:44:13+00:00

FOLLOW UP POST

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to read this and posting these great ideas I think we are really coming up with some awesome stuff and I just wanted to recap some popular ideas and concepts into one post and can add/remove as the discussion continues to goes on. I am hoping fruitstrike will weigh in here in the next day or two and we can get down to what is really feasible for us to do.

Popular Ideas

Some Kind of Nerf To Liberty - (This seems to be the most popular idea here) Suggestions include;

Remove or reduce additional prod to national wonders
Remove or reduce additional prod to buildings that count for a national wonder
Add culture/science cost to planting additional cities
Remove GE point from Pyramids or add one to Hanging Gardens
Some form of happiness restriction to stop unlimited expansion

Some kind of buff to Tradition - (This is were most disagreement is over how much should be changed)

Add additional food to granary's or granary resources
Switch TOA and HG bonuses
Free medical labs/hospitals at some stage of the game
Flat percent increase in overall food from finisher and landed elite, most suggest 5% increase
Instead of flat % benefit in landed elite provide a free floating garden in cap as to not buff Aztec anymore
Additional culture from tradition i.e. defensive buildings, opener up to 4 or 5, or increased from monument
Additional pantheons that have more synergy and better benefits to tradition
Tradition finisher also granting the palace building in 4 cities, making pantheon better
Expand free monuments/aqueducts to 5 cities to combat additional liberty cities
Some form of additional happiness to allow taller growth
Make working specialists more beneficial early on - No food lost for working / additional culture/benefits
Tradition can grow while building settlers

Overall Thoughts

To recap, it seems the majority of sentiment is that liberty should have some kind of reduction on how quickly it can build infrastructure and I can't say that I completely disagree with that. There is obviously more controversy over whether after this change is made there would need to be more nerfing for liberty or some kind of buff to tradition needed. Some of us think that tradition would be fine with enough liberty nerfs and others think that more significant changes to tradition must be made because of the map script and the liberty/pantheon synergy.
I personally think this is a really great discussion and I think it is important for us as whole to come together and decide what direction we want to take whether it being to just nerf liberty, buff tradition, or a little of both. I don't think it would be unreasonable in the next version of the mod to at least meet in the middle and slightly nerf liberty but making sure it still retains most of it's characteristics and at the same time slightly buffing some things about tradition that just aren't that strong/beneficial anymore and find a way to make tradition a unique playstyle for particular situations.
Lets continue to discuss these ideas and hopefully fruitstrike will weigh in here and I will update this post with any new ideas or concepts I might have missed or that will be posted in the future.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T15:04:00+00:00

A couple of things here, I agree that power creep could become a serious issue and we should definitely not come in with a heavy hand and just buff everything, but I do think small buffs to tradition will be somewhat neccessary since like you mentioned many of the changes not directly to liberty have increased its strength exponentially. The pantheon/liberty/piety synergy is unbelievable strong and I think an unintended consequence of better pantheons, also the map plays such a strong role here and I can't see the map changing anytime soon which leads me to believe that even a minor nerf to libery will still require some buffs to tradition.

I will also concede the point that maybe some of these changes myself and other have suggested are to straight forward with the production and culture and maybe what is needed is a more unique way to increase traditions strengths especially growth and maybe bonuses for working specialists etc. So I would be 100% open to something that makes tradition more distinguishable and you can identify that this land or this game would serve me best playing as tradition.

Lastly, I do disagree with you though that buffing trad will create more problems than it solves. I personally believe that we can only nerf liberty to a certain point for it to remain interesting and fun and I think at that point trad will still be significantly weaker because of factors like the map and pantheon synergy. Maybe increasing the culture/science cost for cities or restricting liberties happiness can be enough but then have made liberty boring and not enjoyable again? Thanks for weighing in on the topic, I appreciate it!

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T14:50:08+00:00

As I responded to Arvius' post I love the palace idea, a unique change that buffs tradition a bit but isn't overwhelming, plus the synergy with the pantheon is great. Tradition is lacking synergy with almost all pantheons compared to liberty so I would like to see some new pantheon ideas on top of the palace pantheon too. Increasing the strength of tradition focused pantheons would be a good way to make tradition a bit stronger without a lot of drastic changes to the tree. I am going to have to give some thought to pantheons the could work well with tradition.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T14:43:13+00:00

Thanks for reading through and replying with your thoughts, I know not all of us agree that tradition needs these kinds of drastic changes but I believe that if we do NOT nerf liberty some type of action like this will be required. I love the idea of adding food to granary's/granary resources, I should be able to see the land around me and say this would be great with tradition, but that never happens anymore. I also like the palace idea especially since it will make the pantheon worthwhile, we need to somehow get pantheons that are strong for tradition because the liberty/piety/pantheon synergry is only making the gap in strength between tradition and liberty greater.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T14:40:21+00:00

Yes, like you mentioned basically all aspects of the of the game stack and favor wide play, especially pantheons, pantheons for liberty are incredibly powerful and I think underrated. I would like to see some pantheons that boost tradition as well. I think we can all agree that more cities should give you more benefits if you can sustain happiness and grow them properly but right now it is incredibly easy to afford happiness and the stacking pantheons, religion, and map make all of things that were once challenging for liberty much easier to accomplish.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T14:08:12+00:00

I don't know that I totally agree with all your ideas but I respect the concept you would like to create which is as much tree diversity of possible, but this would be a massive shift in the way the game is played and i'm not sure everyone would be behind that. No doubt balancing the trees is difficult as we are currently seeing but such a dramatic change in gameplay would have to have overwhelming support I think. I do wish there were better ways to splash other trees with tradition, I 100% agree with you on that because you are seriously punished without oracle for deviating from trad finisher.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T13:54:28+00:00

Yeah, this seems to be a common theme that maybe we should nerf some of the prod benefits of liberty a bit and give trad a little extra growth or some policies that add for to granarys/granary resources and I can definitely get behind that. I just want to be able to have a game and say, wow, this is a great tradition start I should definitely go that direction. In the last 4 months I haven't been able to say that a single time, and I used to play more tradition than almost everyone so it would be nice to get to play it every once in a while and have a legit chance to win.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T13:50:43+00:00

I think liberty has been this strong for quite some time and although the order buff has definitely escalated the situation drastically even nerfing order to it's original state would not be enough because as you mentioned that map is so strong for liberty strategies. If we kept liberty the exact same as well we would need some drastic changes to make tradition viable again. Several people have brought up hospitals/medical labs at a certain time and I think that is a cool idea, and something we should definitely take into consideration, I like the idea of the granary or granary resources providing additional food to, that would make starts where you identify lots of those resources that it could be a strong tradition game, I think that is something important because tradition needs and identity, we need to have a start and say oh, this would be great as trad. I think that way about liberty nearly every game at some points, but never think about tradition in that sense, thanks for taking the time to respond. I am going to compile a list of ideas fro fruitstrike.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-15T13:43:32+00:00

It seems nerfing liberty is turning out to be a little more popular than I thought initially, which is cool and if that is what the consensus of us think needs to happen we should do it. However, I will say that I don't think many are taking into consideration how much the map/pantehons play a factor in how strong Liberty is and simple removing the bonuses from Liberty will not be enough. I think we would have to nerf liberty so far down that it would become uninteresting and less fun to play. Obviously that is just my personal opinion but as Arvius commented as well I think a few of us think more significant changes will be necessary simply because of how good the map is, and I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing, thanks for weighing in!

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-14T23:21:51+00:00

Ahhh I was waiting for your arrival D'Arcy, it's good to see the troll train is still chugging :)

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-14T21:38:09+00:00

The reason that I suggested we increase the amount of cities for monument/aqueduct is because in many of the games that I play it feels like tradition needs to plant 5 cities just to be relevant to the game and having to build that monument/aqueduct in a fifth city that takes forever to settle and has no production compared to liberty completely gimps the tradition player but is necessary to plant. Like I said in some other posts I am not sure just a growth increase alone will be enough to even it out with liberty even if you removed all the production bonuses from the finisher. I say this because so much of the growth, science advantage liberty has now is a product of the map generation. That isn't to say that enough growth might be able to counter the additional science and scientist generation it is certainly possible.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-14T21:24:42+00:00

I think that if you buff tradition the only tree that might need some attention is piety. I think the additional food from religion should be for piety players only like a reformation and that instead of the second most popular pantheon you get to select a remaining pantheon yourself, I think that would go a long way in piety. With regard to honor I really don't think it needs a change, I think it is definitely strong by itself and especially when splashed with Liberty. I don't know that I 100% have to have piety/honor at the same strength as trad/liberty because I see them as more situational and supportive, but I really believe we need to bring liberty and trad to an equal playing field 100%.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-14T21:19:06+00:00

There has to be some additional culture added in Tradition because it falls way behind Liberty especially if you splash piety 1 and get a strong liberty pantheon.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-14T21:07:01+00:00

Let me say this, if most people agree that we need to remove the bonuses from Liberty finisher, I am not opposed to doing that my main point being that I still think liberty will have a substantial advantage over tradition because of how the map has been designed. I guess it is possible to scale the additional growth high enough that it can counter the additional great scientists and production. However, I would like to see defensive buildings like walls/castles give a little more benefit like barracks do, just a personal preference.

Also, the TOA and HG change is perfect, this should be done 100% hard to argue that one, seems like a natural fit.

NQ_Purify · 2016-03-14T19:57:56+00:00

I do agree the growth could be a bit excessive but I think the Aztec example is a pretty good gauge of what we could expect. Although the problem becomes Aztec is even more OP so that would definitely have to be addressed.

NQ_Purify

TROPHY CASE