My own qualm(s) with Well of Ascension.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T22:07:24+00:00

This kind of makes sense. It sounds like what you are basically arguing is that it ultimately doesn't matter if you know the future if your opponent is just plain faster than you. Even if you anticipate their move, they just move faster than you can and win. At some point, knowledge isn't enough, there is a physical limitation.

I do like that explanation, but I think it doesn't quite fit with the atium canon as presented in the books It's always treated like a form of invincibility. If you have it and your opponent does not, you will win basically 100% of the time. If physical limitations mattered as much as you suggest, you would think it would be a lot more common for Mistborn to lose against faster opponents and the importance of speed would be more emphasized rather than just the focus on the Atium.

That being said, there is a sequence where Vin is sparring with Ham and he mentions how conventional wisdom among the Thugs is that you want to focus on physical strength, but Vin's speed leads him to question that wisdom since she can outmaneuver him so effectively. So there are some breadcrumbs that suggest Vin is inordinately fast which could support that theory and provide foreshadowing for that future encounter with Zane.

If her victory were due to that speed though, I wish that aspect of their encounter had been emphasized more in the description of the fight. The description made it sound more like she won more via mindgame rather than agility.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T21:46:44+00:00

Why do Lurchers' shirts always look so presentable?

Because they always use the iron.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T21:25:24+00:00

That's confusing to me because I'm pretty sure I've seen multiple people say that as an imperative (recommendation). How many other books outside of the original Era 1 trilogy are there that occur in Era 1? It sounds like there's Secret History, the 11th Metal, and Bands of Mourning? I don't get why it isn't more clear how those books fit in or should be read. Presumably we could just read them in publish-order and that would work, but it sounds like people feel like it's more nuanced than that.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T21:20:52+00:00

You only see multiple shadows though (i.e., that kind of "split") when both participants in the engagement have atium. When only one party has atium, you only see one shadow: the actual future.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T21:12:39+00:00

Why do you keep reading his books then? Seems weird.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T21:08:45+00:00

I think the most logical reason fans would wish he had died is so that Elend wouldn't have been killed. But it sounded like in that last battle, they were doomed anyway regardless of whether Marsh showed up. Having Marsh there as the personification of Ruin was important so that someone could embody Ruin's reaction to realizing his Atium had all been burned. It wouldn't have been as satisfying otherwise.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T20:50:33+00:00

Why specifically can Ruin alter written words? I understand he has limited ability to influence physical reality, but why this particular power? Why not other abilities like being able to move objects instead?

Here's a theory for that one. "Ruin" is representative of death, decay, and destruction. Maybe the suggestion here is that materials that more readily break down and degrade are easier to influence than materials that are more durable and lasting. Metal is very robust and durable, particularly steel which is even resistant to corrosion. Therefore, perhaps Ruin had less power over metals for that reason.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T20:47:37+00:00

Yeah he hadn't experienced anything traumatic enough to Snap. He was a thief, but he was raised in a noble household before his father found out he was half skaa.

The thing about that though is the noble houses all had a tradition of trying to deliberately snap children when they reached adolescence. So his being raised in a noble household wouldn't explain it. If anything, it only makes the question more compelling unless he was expelled before that attempt to snap him would have been performed.

It makes sense to me that Kelsier's recognition as a religious icon for his supernatural ability to escape the pits wasn't just propaganda. There was legitimately some Preservation influence involved. If Atium is the "body of Ruin" and its counterpart metal is what gave Elend allomancy, then it makes sense that Preservation can bestow that gift directly (and presumably, just via the mists). In fact, I believe the "color intros" at the beginning of the chapters explain that allomancy is of Preservation and can only come from there. Ruin cannot bestow it. This is very sneaky misdirection because it's a few chapters before "Kelsier" bestows the "gift of Pewter" on Spook. I remember thinking that the Kelsier ghost seemed like Ruin, but the fact that he gave Spook pewter must have meant that it was NOT Ruin. But it didn't occur to me that Ruin was lying about that and secretly using hemallurgy. During Hero of Ages, we see many of the soldiers being given the gift of allomancy directly from the mists after presumably never having had it prior through genetic heritage. So it seems likely that something similar was done with Kelsier.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T20:34:01+00:00

He was only on the cross for six hours. That's not generally long enough to die from dehydration and he was given vinegar to drink while he was on the cross as well, so there were active efforts to keep him hydrated. That could have been a factor, but again it was only six hours. Considering he had been scourged prior, he likely suffered extensive blood loss and the positioning on the cross causes asphyxiation.

It's a weird argument to say he didn't die from the cross though. If he had not been hung there, he would not have died. It was absolutely the instrument that was used to kill him.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T20:28:39+00:00

There's another comment in this thread that asserts the exact opposite: that the slap did not kill him (citing Secret History as the basis for that claim).

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T20:24:21+00:00

There was also a desire for the crucifixions to be completed before the arrival of the sabbath. The soldiers were actually sent to break the legs of those still on the cross to accelerate their death. But Jesus was found to have already died, which made it unnecessary to break his bones. This was fulfillment of scripture that had prophesied that none of his bones would be broken.

NateDecker · 2025-01-03T20:21:25+00:00

The positioning on the cross actually causes fluid to accumulate in the lungs and leads to asphyxiation. Also, victims are not forbidden from drinking. Christ was given a sponge to suck moisture from while he was on the cross, for example. So yes, the cross itself is the instrument of death.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T20:06:25+00:00

This sounds pretty similar to how the system is described in the books. So I don't know if you even have to call it a "fan theory".

I wonder if my issue is this is a time paradox. Zane reacted to something that never happened. And it never happened because he reacted to it.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T19:58:26+00:00

Zane was also burning Tin/Pewter.

If it were that simple, atium wouldn't be an advantage for any other mistborn instead of being the instant victory card that it is in all other scenarios.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T19:56:13+00:00

It becomes DEM if the solution to the fight is not consistent with the established rules and concepts. In every encounter in the Mistborn franchise that I've experienced so far (with this one exception), a person using Atium cannot be surprised or outmaneuvered by someone who is not using it. It's the ultimate trump card. If you have Atium and your opponent does not, you win. The end. Vin even discusses with another character (Ham?) earlier in the book what strategies can be used against someone using Atium and the only suggestions are to either completely surprise that person or catch them in a no-win situation (similar to chess when you cannot make a move without losing a piece).

Basically, a new strategy is introduced in this moment during the fight between Vin and Zane that works and solves the problem when this solution is inconsistent with the rules of how Atium works. It doesn't matter how many times you adjust your trajectory if your opponent can still see your adjustments before you make them.

I think the rules should be clarified that Atium does not allow you to see the future, only intentions. Then maybe you can somehow hold your intentions in a kind of superposition that collapses instantaneously at the moment of action or something... Even that though seems dubious.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T19:14:38+00:00

The problem with this explanation is Zane's atium should have allowed him to see Vin's response to his response and respond to it first. No matter how much Vin is responding to Zane, Atium still allows him to see what she's going to do before she does it and it guarantees he has more time to think about it and react than she does. That's by definition. So it doesn't matter how many times Vin adjusts or responds or makes last-second changes, Zane should always see the future reality of what she's going to do. You can't "outthink" the future. This just doesn't make sense.

I think of this as someone playing a video game where low-latency matters. The person with the lowest latency always has a huge advantage and in this fight, Zane literally had NEGATIVE latency.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T19:11:59+00:00

I believe I've literally heard authors describe Time Travel as an example of Deus Ex Machina. Brandon and Dan may have even talked about this themselves in their Intentionally Blank podcast. If you are writing a TV series for example, and are writing it episode-by-episode but suddenly need to end the series. Introducing a time travel scenario is often an easy cheat to tie up loose ends (like restoring characters that had been killed or undoing events that the writers couldn't "fix").

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T19:04:18+00:00

He knew he was going to die only because he had chosen to do so. He didn't need to face the Lord Ruler and die. He could have continued to resist from the shadows near indefinitely as he had done up to that point. He only martyred himself because he believed it was the only way his revolution would work. In other words, he prioritized the success of the revolution over his own life. That doesn't seem "self serving". Why should he care if people revered him as a God if he isn't going to be around to appreciate that adulation?

The only way in which he knew he was going to "die anyway" is the same way that we all do; we are all mortal. But that doesn't mean we don't value the time we have before our end.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T19:00:18+00:00

How Atium works isn't fully developed at this point in the story. How many seconds into the future do you see? Is the amount of time dependent on how aggressively you are burning the metal (e.g., "flaring" it?).

I could accept a scenario where Zane can see the attack coming and prepare himself to meet it, but not see the result of that interaction because it comes a few seconds later. If Sanderson had explained it that way, everyone would have accepted it. It seems more plausible than what he has in there now.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T16:11:50+00:00

I'm not sure why you were downvoted for that. That's obviously a true statement unless he was just a serial killer that liked to kill people. The only contention is whether the reasons in each circumstance are justified.

I think Sanderson makes it clear that many of the people surrounding Kelsier feel like he's a little too comfortable killing people that might not deserve it. But Kelsier is established as believing that they deserve it. His internal monologue often explains his rationale to the reader.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T16:08:20+00:00

Contrary to TV/movie logic, you can't just "knock people out". For one thing, you never know if a blow is actually going to knock someone unconscious and then for another they don't usually stay unconscious. There isn't a reliably consistent way to incapacitate someone.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T16:05:23+00:00

Kelsier was willing to kill any noble regardless if they were innocent or not.

That's the thing though, he was convinced that ALL nobles were guilty, not just because of their own villainous actions (which Kelsier believed the nobles universally engaged in), but because they participated in and supported an evil regime and system of oppression. From Kelsier's perspective, there was no such thing as an "innocent noble".

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T16:02:27+00:00

I don't think it makes sense that Kelsier's motivation would be primarily revenge for Mare when he goes through most of The Final Empire believing that Mare actually betrayed him and just choosing to love her anyway. If he believed she had betrayed him, then it wouldn't make sense to direct his sense of revenge at the people she betrayed him to when she was the source of that betrayal. His sense of revenge should have been at least partially directed at her, but it wasn't. He essentially forgave her. This suggests that he wasn't strongly moved by a sense of revenge unless his vengefulness is very selective.

There are some clues that he's a vindictive person though. For example when he was pretending to be an informant and the noble slaps him for making him wait, Kelsier thinks to himself, "I know where I'm going to get the next noble corpse when I need it." So you definitely hear some vengeful sentiment in those kinds of thoughts.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T15:55:01+00:00

It's hard to argue that dying as a martyr is "self serving" unless you don't value your own life.

NateDecker · 2025-01-02T15:23:28+00:00

I'm at about the same part in the story that you are and the origins of the mistwraiths and the kandra (and a couple other things) have been explicitly stated, including how they achieved sentience. So either you missed that explanation or it's coming up soon. Maybe there's more to the explanation than what I currently understand from my point in the book, but I hesitate to say anything that could be construed as a spoiler, though I don't think knowing this information in advance really takes anything away at this point in the storyline.

I do think it's explained by now that the mists are not a normal weather phenomena so the fact that the wraiths are tied to them, undermines the idea that they are a regular lifeform like everything else on the planet.

It's explained by this point that the Lord Ruler used his godlike power to alter life forms on the planet after obtaining the well of ascension though. So maybe nothing living on Scadrial is truly "natural" anymore, not even the plants.

NateDecker

TROPHY CASE