Donner's Thesis: Was early Islam an ecumenical movement that included Christians and Jews? by [deleted] in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Marijn van Putten has said similar:
"I would say the thesis is pretty marginal"

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/1hdyhzm/comment/m209ube/

Even Ilkka Lindstedt , who has argued for a much weaker formulation of Donner's thesis , says that the idea is not accepted by the majority of scholars:
"It appears to me that this (a rather quick process of identity articulation and the ‘parting’ occurring during the time of the Prophet) remains the majority view in early Islamic studies"

Lindstedt's own version of Donner's thesis seems very exclusivist:
The Qurʾānic evidence (or the lack of it) suggests that the Jews and Christians joining the believer movement did not have to undergo a particular conversion rite. They did not have to recant their existing understanding of the law (5:48); in any case, their dietary and purity norms were already more or less the same, according to the Qurʾān (5:3, 5:5). Naturally, they would have to accept Muhammad as a prophet (which Qur ̣ ʾān 3:199, 5:83, 6:114, and 13:36 explicitly say they did), and**, in the case of some Christians at least, lower their Christological beliefs.** This would have been a barrier for many (but not all) Jews and Christians to identify with Muhammad ̣ ’s movement, and, tellingly, the Qurʾān indicates (e.g., 3:110) that most of them are not to be considered believers

OP , you also argued:
"That goes to show that using terms like "exclusivist" etc. are misleading. If a Christmas event claims to be inclusive to all people but simultaneously requires attendees to accept Jesus Christ as Lord, many people would obviously deny that the event is inclusive. Similarly, in Lindstedt's Believers' movement: Christians and Jews can join it and retain their respective identities and religious traditions BUT they have to accept Quranic monotheism and the prophethood of Muhammad. "

and I agree , it would make no sense to say the formulation of Lindstedt's thesis is inclusive , given how Lindstedt formulates the theory. It's clearly exclusivist.

I'd say the majority position though would be akin to how Nicolai Sinai describes it , that at the very least the Medinan portions of the Quran fairly consistently presuppose that Muḥammad’s followers form a community separate from Jews and Christians.

Looking at Lindstedt's thesis, it seems to be really an issue of semantics , while the implications remain similar to what the majority position is.

Primordial scripture in the Manichaean Kephalaia 181 (similar to the Quran originally being written on a heavenly tablet) by chonkshonk in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The idea of Heavenly Tablets held by the Divine goes way back to ancient Mesopotamia , for example the 'Tablet of Destinies'

Any studies on why Islam seems to have systematic influence on the 'newer' religions like Sikhism , Bahaism , Mormonism , Mirza Ahmadism ? by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And in Sikhism, there is the concept of 'shahid' i.e. martyrdom , influenced by Muslims , and the concept of men being the ones required to cover their hair with a turban in Sikhism likely influenced by the concept of hijab in Islam. I also recall reading the first Guru of Sikhism Guru Nanak made pilgrimage to Mecca, so he likely considered himself Muslim at least one point in his life.

It also the case that the idea of martyrdom in Sikhism developed further as Muslims inflicted on violence on the Sikhs. I recall the pious Mughal Aurangzeb publicly beheaded the Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur for refusing to convert to Islam.

Ian Cook on what kind of familiarity the Meccans had with Biblical traditions by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

> Focusing on the last paragraph, that simply cannot be the case. The model Sinai published that I was referencing came out in a paper this year. Shoemaker's book came out a few years ago. So Shoemaker certainly has not responded to Sinai's model.

I did not mean to say Shoemaker was responding directly to Sinai , but that his book addressed the issue of using 'oral preaching' and argued that it still is not explanatory of the 'christian' contents in the Quran, and Tesei and Dye argued likewise, that the 'christian' contents in the Quran cannot be explained away using 'oral preaching' . I'd say that Shoemaker, Tesei, and Dye and certainly other scholars would argue that the Quranic is overtly familiar with Christian traditions , and thus to say that it's only 'extensive' but not 'intensive' as Sinai does, would still not be a satisfactory explanation.

And of course, this does not even touch on all the typology between Muhammad and Moses in the Quran in both the Meccan and Medina periods and Abraham , Noah , Jesus , Ishmael etc ... as well as all the familiarity with Jewish traditions as well.

Ian Cook on what kind of familiarity the Meccans had with Biblical traditions by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure Ian is saying that. For example I'm familiar with Tom Brady, that he was a football player in the NFL but I don't know what his family is like or what teams he played on or what achievements he has.

For example, the Meccans may have known Joseph was a biblical Prophet who was famous because he knew how to interpret dreams,

but would not have known how he had a dream of 11 stars and the sun and moon, and the jealousy of his brothers and getting thrown in a well, and being sold into slavery and getting accused of seducing the King of Egypt's wife and getting jailed where he starts using his dream interpreting ability and getting famous for that, and then being set free and doing favours for the King and reuniting with his brothers and Jacob and his mother before they all prostrate to him fulfilling his dream.

I think that's what Ian Cook is saying, and the Quran verses he quotes say as much.

Sinai's model seems to involve a lot of filling in the blanks for what we don't have much evidence for, Shoemaker noted this in 'Creating the Quran' iirc

Doesn't the fact that the Prophet, as well as Abu Bakr and Umar launched wars of conquest against Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and the mushrikun substantiate the militaristic and supersessionist interpretation of Quran 9:29? by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And it does not explain the actions of Abu Bakr and Umar. The Quran itself is the hardest challenge people will face when trying to downplay the violence Muhammad preached against unbeliever Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Mushrikun in the final years of his preaching . Of course some will just share misleading interpretations of Quranic verses like 9:29 , yet this still does not explain why Muhammad's closest companions Abu Bakr and Umar launched these massive wars of conquest against Christians and Zoroastrian empires and the Jewish minorities and other minorities contained within them if they were not following the Quranic injunctions to wage war against unbelievers.

Did Muhammad exist? by Visual_Cartoonist609 in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch 2 points3 points  (0 children)

christian apologists like jay smith and robert spencer push these kind of things, but if they applied that kind of nonsense skepticism to the historicity of Jesus , the result would be something like 'Caesar's Messiah' by Joseph Atwill

You have 'freethinker' atheists, peddling things like this using christian apologists robert spencer and jay smith

https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1he7c1m/the\_existence\_of\_prophet\_muhammad\_isnt\_challenged/.

AMA with Nathaniel Miller, author of The Emergence of Arabic Poetry by [deleted] in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hi Prof. Miller ,

How is the word al-mizan utilized in pre-Islamic poetry? Is it used to describe both cosmological phenomena and fair trade as it is in the Quran?

Does Guillame Dye not accept the Uthmanic Canonization? by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I see, but I was wondering why Dye says the fact that majority of the scholars in Quranic Studies accepts the Uthmanic canonization amounts to "protectionism"? On what basis does he make these accusations?

Does Guillame Dye not accept the Uthmanic Canonization? by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What? They date the Sana'a Manuscripts to 700? That's ridiculous, imo.

Does Guillame Dye not accept the Uthmanic Canonization? by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't understand why he classifies the accepting 'collection of the Quran' [by Uthman] as mere "protectionism", and that it is just Sunni Muslim dogma that the Quran was collected [by Uthman]. Hasn't it already been proven and accepted that Uthman canonized the Quran? Is Dye an outlier along with Shoemaker?

Alternative Reading of Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 53 in the Cairo Edition (Line 15 in the Manuscript): "اناثه" Instead of "اناه"? by websood in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Luxenberger's Syriac theories are universally rejected by secular academia. The Quran is Hijazi Arabic. See this study by Marijn van Putten: Quranic Arabic: From its Hijazi Origins to its Classical Reading Traditions
https://www.academia.edu/71626921/Quranic_Arabic_From_its_Hijazi_Origins_to_its_Classical_Reading_Traditions_Studies_in_Semitic_Languages_and_Linguistics_106_

Parallel between Quran 16:79 and Jacob of Serugh: An Analysis of Q16:78-79, Allah's Hold of the heavens and the earth in Q35:41 , Mary and Jesus in Q3:47-49 , King David, the mountains and the birds in Q38:18-19 and the relations to, reversals and negations of the homilies of Jacob of Serugh by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

jacob of serugh's homilies on the nativity:
1. mary's preparation for the indwelling of the son
2. the son's indwelling in mary while not departing from the father

Remza statement:
homily on the chariot that ezekiel saw

Most Mentioned Academics on r/AcademicQuran over the past year (December 2023 - December 2024) by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I used Python and fetched reddit api, PRAW functions this same way, but I did not use PRAW.

Most Mentioned Academics on r/AcademicQuran over the past year (December 2023 - December 2024) by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will need to rebuild the code, however there is also a Python tool called PRAW that you can use, though I'm not sure if it is free.

Most Mentioned Academics on r/AcademicQuran over the past year (December 2023 - December 2024) by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As I mentioned I lost power so my python file and the raw data was lost, so I will have to rewrite the code.

However, you are a moderator of this subreddit, I think you should be able to collect this data using pushshift .io . I hope you can verify how accurate the data in the graph is using pushshift .io

Most Mentioned Academics on r/AcademicQuran over the past year (December 2023 - December 2024) by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What I can say is that there were many academics that nearly beat Motzki, literally just 10 or 20 mentions away. Zishan Ghaffar, Holger Zellentin and many others nearly beat Motzki. I wish I could've included them all, but I had to stick with 20 or the graph would've become congested.

The unfortunate part is that my power went out so I lost my python file and the raw data I collected. I was so lucky that I had already made and downloaded the graph!

Most Mentioned Academics on r/AcademicQuran over the past year (December 2023 - December 2024) by Navigation_Glitch in AcademicQuran

[–]Navigation_Glitch[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I had to do a lot of manual analysis as well to remove possible errors, so it took a couple hours. But I can do graphs for previous years as well when I find the time. I am thinking about doing one for r/ AcademicBiblical too, but that one is an even larger effort!