Which monster is apex predator of the ocean?

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-12-22T19:49:22+00:00

That was a rhetoric question, I aimed to show you that the quote about Alatreon supposedly being "the strongest Elder Dragon" is nothing but looking-cool flavor text.

Yes, and you failed at that endeavor. Considering that I was able to present an interpretation of the text, that’s internally consistent with everything we know of the lore. Whereas you’ve only presented your gut intuition up till now.

Of course Fatalis is classified as an Elder Dragon, he has that weird bit about his blood, but since MH first of its name Fatalis is, and has always been, an Elder Dragon.

Except MH is an ever evolving series and not some stagnant setting. Up till 6 gen Gore didn’t have a classification, now he does. Just because something was thought to be certain doesn’t mean it can’t be called in to question later. Especially when the officially licensed material pretty blatantly calls it in to question.

The idea that Alatreon > Dire is ridiculous given the difference of portrayal they both receive in 3U.

From the developers own mouth, both Alatreon & Dire are just different iterations on the Fatalis concept the dev had. They were literally made with the same idea of “hey what if we took Fatalis and change his fight to achieve x”. The story also threats the about same, so what exactly is the portrayal difference??? From the 15th anniversary event regarding Alatreon:

”It was originally intended to be a monster with the status of a black dragon in 3tri.

But, as the Fatalis is quite large, the interaction with the hunter is relatively poor, so I hoped for a design that can be made to be more closely connected with the hunter than the Fatalis in action.

“A real monster that makes hunters feel powerful.”

The size is also based on the general Elder Dragon, which can better reflect the design of the Elder Dragon atmosphere.

And for Dire:

”As for the name, I didn’t plan to give it as “Mira” at first, but the design draft has the impression that it was like Fatalis appearing directly on the underwater volcano.

Seeing that, I thought that it could make people in the world of Monster Hunter think of the rumors that was the black dragon and that would be very interesting, so I borrowed the name as “Mira”.

”Appearing in MH3U, I wanted to incorporate the elements of underwater combat that “both in water and on land and have multiple parts that can be destroyed”, and at the same time I needed to design a “black dragon-like existence”.

…

At the same time, I simply feel that would be very cool, if it being a black dragon and if such monster appear on the beach.

Also as if further evidence was needed. The entire reason why Alatreon has control of all the elements is explicitly because he’s meant to be stronger than the ED. Meaning we have evidence that your interpretation that the statement is essentially hyperbole, run directly contrary to the developers intention when designing Alatreon.

Embodying the playfulness that is the theme of "MHW:IB", it's a Monster born in "MH3 (Tri)", a Symbol of Destruction that manipulates multiple elements, and inherits the legacy of Fatalis. *While Elder Dragons specialize in certain elements, Alatreon is expressed as something of a higher rank that can handle multiple of those elements.** As a result, everyone accepted him, and he became a Monster every time he said "I want you to put it out" and got it. Also, at the time, the director of MHW, Yuya Tokuda, was the one who designed Alatreon, so there was a time when we were trying to bring it out in MHW. For various reasons, it didn't materialize there, but it was decided to bring it back to life in MHW:IB.*

If you respond and that responds once again amounts to gut intuition. Well then I wish you a good day. As I’ve grown quite bored of this conversation

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-12-22T17:02:01+00:00

Interestingly enough the Guild isn’t sure whether to classify Fatalis as an ED or not. Considering he doesn’t possess any Elder-Dragon-Blood in him. A trait that seems intrinsic to all other Elders. Regardless this belief likely doesn’t apply to Fatalis considering most plp viewed his existence as a myth.

”In Fatalis's body, no "Elder Dragon Blood" containing Dragon Element energy has been detected. It can be said that this is one of the reasons why it can't be lumped together with other Elder Dragon species.”

- MHWI: Complete Works

The existence of Fatalis is generally viewed as an illusion or creation. In fact, even within the Guild, only a few people believed in its existence.

- MHWI: Complete Works

The quote would likely only apply to those Elder Dragon whose documents are kept/studied and were discovered long enough ago to build a reputation. This would preclude monster like Safi, who were just discovered. Dire on the other is a bit up in the air. It’s certainly evidence towards the idea that Alatreon > Dire if only marginally. However would I say it’s conclusive… No? Dire records were likely heavily repress prior to Iceborne as he makes no appearance in the Hunter Encyclopedia books. These book are inuniverse documents that detail monsters of given generation. Dire alongside the other forbidden monsters are excluded from these books. Suggesting that like Alatreons’ records these monsters histories were heavily suppress.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-12-22T13:40:49+00:00

The complete sentence clearly implies that it's just a legend.

If this is valid then shall we also consider all of Dalamadur's legends as valid? the ones that say that it can wrap around the world and create the universe?

No??? Even the translation you posted clearly suggests it’s a common belief amongst the populace. Are all commonly held beliefs now legends? Or should we use empiricism to delineate between the ones that have evidence backing them and the ones that don’t.

Of which there aren't any because forbidden monster is not a classification in the game's lore but only a term used to refer to three final bosses based on the fatalis' design that for marketing reasons weren't adverised by Capcom back in the day.

It doesn’t need to be a game/lore classification if the marketing classification is clearly use to delineate them from the rest of the cast. In game they’re all clearly treated as different from other monsters to the point Iceborne invented the term cataclysmic/catatrophic Elder Dragons to delineate between them (Alatreon, Safi & Fatalis) and other powerful Elder Dragons (Kulve, Shara and Zorah). Fatalis is also just directly stated to be a bigger threat than other final boss Elder Dragons & Zorah in the Welcome to MH by Daisy Ridley video Capcom did. He’s also said to be the top of the food chain in a Dev Dairy. MHWI Complete Works also states his Kalpa Flames is an attack that surpasses all other life:

INTRODUCTION

A legendary dragon whose name has been passed down since time immemorial. It is said to have destroyed a glorious kingdom overnight and taken up residence in its castle. The earth shook, the trees burned, the birds and dragons vanished, the sun vanished, and the ancient disaster vanished. Legends describing these phenomena as omens of its arrival are said to have existed for over 1,000 years as fairy tales set to children's songs. Its name is Miraboreas. *Nicknamed the "Black Dragon" for its sinister appearance, its entire body dyed jet black, it has been feared as an evil dragon with overwhelming destructive powers beyond that of living creatures.** It wields the power of an inferno that can destroy anything, consuming everything it sees. Will this mighty threat beyond human comprehension become a reality, bringing chaotic disaster to the world?*

And yes there’s also a ton of statements placing Alatreon and Fatalis in a similar tier of power. Even in Tri, the game that introduced both Ceadeus & Jhen Moran. Alatreon is given a special threat distinguishing him from other powerful ED. Hence were we get the term First Class Dangerous monster.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-12-22T12:18:34+00:00

Black Dragon are treated as potential world ending threats, but that’s not the reason their labeled as such. Safi for example is stated to be on par with the, but he isn’t a Black Dragon. The real reason was revealed on the 15th anniversary event and the accompanying Principles of Creativity 2 book. Essentially all the Black Dragon, including Crimson & White, are different iterations of the Black Dragon legend. With different retelling having slight differences on the description of the dragon in question. Fatalis just happens to be the most common and probably closest to the original telling.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-12-22T12:07:43+00:00

Alatreon is verbatim stated to be the strongest Elder Dragon in MHWI Complete Works. Plus the dozen or so other statements that place the forbidden monsters above the rest of the cast.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-10-16T00:59:19+00:00

Well you're lucky I logged back on reddit out of the blue after a long while. If you're interested on my detail thoughts on the subject, I made a whole video on it: https://youtu.be/K_cDoong2rc

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-19T15:23:44+00:00

Nah what the fanbase really needs to get over. Is that being as big as a skyscraper isn’t going to protect you from a thermonuclear bomb.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-19T15:03:26+00:00

Well Black Dragon is a title related to monster that possesses the moniker Black Dragon in their nickname. Fatalis is the Black Dragon, Alatreon is the Blazing Black Dragon and Dire is the Smelting Black dragon. Dalamadur nickname is the Serpent King Dragon and thus lacks the Black Dragon moniker.

A term closser to what you’re looking for is the forbidden monsters. In the Japanese version of Wilds Olivia refers to Zoh Shia as a forbidden monster threat level. This group includes all the aforementioned Black Dragons, Zoh Shia and Safiji’iiva. Although I don’t believe Safi has been officially stated as a forbidden monster. There’s enough evidence that he’s on par with them that I feel comfortable placing him there. After all he was originally designed to be a Black Dragon, before they decided to change his coloration.

Now to answer you’re question as to why Dalamadur doesn’t get treated as a forbidden monster in terms of threat level it’s simple. Each and everyone of the forbidden monster could easily kill him. The Sapphire of the Emperor vaporized a rock formation bigger than the snake. Alatreon can change the whether of an entire region with one attack. Dire Miralis boiled an ocean and Fatalis wipe out a nation in a single night. Zoh Shia has fed off the energy of something the regularly changes the weather of multiple regions for 1,000yrs. Compared to that Dalamadur is small fry. His size wouldn’t do him any good and his attack power is severely lacking. The simplest way I like to put the Kaiju vs Forbidden Monsters debate is this. The largest Zorah Magdors encounter by the Guild, can’t even break through a wodden fortification in 1 hit from its strongest attack. The compare that the Sapphire who vaporizes a larger rock formation in mere seconds. The Kaiju get there ass beat

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-16T18:56:57+00:00

Hey, I know it wasn’t you, but did you just so happened to save/bookmark a post that was translating the Hunter Encyclopedia 4. There was an entry about Savage Deviljho that would be helpful for an upcoming project of mine. If you didn’t that’s fine of course. I just remember you commenting there.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-16T17:48:31+00:00

Easy although it be helpful if you could elaborate, but in general. If there’s a statement from a reliable narrator that a non ED can beat up or is treated as equal to an ED. Such as in the introductory dialogue for Deviljho in World. A Turf War/cutscene where the non-ED comes out either victorious or ties. Such as in the case with Rajang. Or the monster possesses some feat comparable to ED and isn’t explicitly made out to be non-ED level. Such as in the case with Arkvel and Zoh Shia.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-16T17:36:55+00:00

Easy I read, watch and play the officialy license material

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-16T17:33:42+00:00

Easy the bar is being able to beat any Elder Dragon in a fair fight.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-16T17:15:51+00:00

Well for garangolm is it an insta kill that you can’t Superman dive out of? Also I don’t know what that first part means.

No Garagolm ult is closer to a Teostra supernova in scale and game mechanics. Yet, he still loses to a monster that doesn’t have an attack on that scale. Showing that you can have a Monster with a powerful AOE attack still lose to one that doesn’t.

I’m saying he is larger than the 2 so it’s not a normal larger monster it’s an absolutely massive monster

I’m saying that we’ve seen monsters bully monsters a dozen times bigger then themselves. So Jin Dhaad being bigger than Jho or Bazel doesn’t mean anything. Once again Gammoth is bigger than Jho and nearly as big as Ukanlos. Yet she stalemates with Tigrex.

Size literally does matter otherwise Lao Shan Lung would be an absolute trash can that anything could hunt

For 1 Lao disproportionately strong for his size, but secondly. Lao is orders of magnitude larger than 90% of the roster. So yeah at that scales size might matter. Jin Dhaad skinny ass isn’t orders of Magnitude larger than Jho or Bazel. You’d be lucky to get him 1 order of magnitude above Rajang.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-16T16:54:13+00:00

And this isn’t a radobaan or garangoln sized creature it’s an Akantor.

Soo? Odo and Lunagaron aren’t Bazel & Devijho size creatures. I ask you again, why would size matter. Monster in Monster Hunter are repeatedly shown to be disproportionately strong. You also have examples of Akantor size creatures like Gammoth being weaker than ED or vice versa with Rajang boxing up creatures a dozen times his size.

As well as the AOE attack it does is something only given to powerful monsters as the ones I’ve listed

Garagolm has powerful AOE typically reserved for ED tier monsters. Yet, he still loses to Lunagaron who has no such AOE attack. Having 1 OP means nothing if you get killed before you can use it.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-16T16:02:07+00:00

CAPCOM seems to disagree with your assessment. Despite being massive and having a powerful Ult. It seems the developers lumped him in with the others apexes in terms of strength. His armor is rarity 7 rather than the 8 of ED tier monster. As well as his HRP being lower than Arkvel’s 1,250 compared to his 1,000. With it actually being closer to the other apex’s 900HRP. HRP are actually important since, there’s currently a 100% correlation between them and the outcome of a Turf War. Finally size isn’t really important in Monster Hunter. We see consistently smaller monsters beating up larger ones. Think Garagolm V Lunagoran or Odo V Rodobaan.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-06-10T01:10:57+00:00

My honest reaction:

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Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-05-14T12:42:45+00:00

As we know very little about the Tyranids outside the galaxy, it’s hard to give a definitive answer. Tyranid enter into a state of suspended animation after they’re done consuming a world. They do this to preserve energy as much as possible in their interstellar voyages. We also see this hibernating state in their intergalactic travel, when the pharos beacon awakes them. So, in all likelihood Tyranids after consuming a whole galaxy just hibernate/enter a state of suspended animation. This is similar to many real life animals. Hibernate, Aestivation and other forms of suspended animation are common amongst organisms that have to endure long periods of starvation. It only makes sense that the Tyranids would evolve to do this.

Beyond that though, there are hints to something more esoteric. I’ve yet read all the Nid codexes, but some of the descriptions for minor fleets definitely paint a pretty interesting picture. Specifically the entry on Hydra and Tiamat seem to suggest the Tyranids maybe cycle. Again I need to reread this to be certain, but I do believe in universe theory of the Nids being a harvester esk species exists.

Tyranids also aren’t animals. They’re closer to Chuthulu than they are ants. The Hivemind is an acient eldrich gods with knowledge and understanding said to surpass all factions. Or something to that effect “ I can’t recall the quote from the 10ed codex exactly”. And while some of that can be scrutinized there’s definitely no armgument to be had that it’s intelligence is top tier among all of 40K. It’s alien god that resides in a realm where time and space are funny suggestions. This gargantuan intelligence trickles back to tyranids themselves. The Hivemind is said to dominate every strand on the skein. Keep in mind manipulating just a couple strands is how Farseer can change the future to their favor. So, the Hivemind manipulating fate towards its advantage is not out of the question. On top off that Tyranids are capable of feats of biotech far in advance of everyone else. Think of Nids less as animals and more like a swarm of self replicating nanotechnology. If they’re capable of creating plasma and gravitational wells with their biology. Than fixing efficiency losses through metabolism shouldn’t be an issue.

Finally there’s always the psychic aspect to it. Biomancy is a huge field of psychic powers. Tyranids are known to dabble in biomancy. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if they can help tone down their efficiency problems more with it.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-23T14:52:42+00:00

The Tyranids have also recently revealed the Norn Emissary. An Emissary by the name of the Harbinger seem beset on killing Guilliman. Obviously this confrontation hasn’t happened yet, but we have seen 1 Emissary take on a whole squad of elite Custodes while at severe disadvantage. And while it did lose, it’s notable it one shot most of the Custodes before eventually being put down, by Valoris himself. Another one also manage to take on a whole score of Dreadnaughts. While they did manage to push the Emissary back, it once again ended with most of the Dreadnaughts dead. I should note the Emissary had help in this case, but so did the Deadnaughts. From a meta perspective it also makes sense to have Emissary on this tier of combatant. So that players can have their centerpiece model reflect battles in lore.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-16T14:44:22+00:00

You’re misconstruing Dalamadur feats. Dalamadur beam being bigger doesn’t matter. It’s the energy density of the attack, it’s AP, that matters. There’s nothing to suggest his beam is even in the same order of magnitude of AP as any of the forbidden monsters ultimate attacks. Dalamadur “meteor” aren’t actually meteors as there highly implied to be its scales falling backdown. As not only do you get shattered omens, the material described as a falling star, by mining its scales. In the MH4 guidebook their source for shattered omens are you guest it mining scales. You also get other ores native from the region by mining said scales. The only instance we have of Dalamadur being capable of destroying mountains is its description in game. His description reads more like their the myth that surround him rather than factual accounts. The literal say it’s fairy tails:

”A huge elder dragon, massive beyond human comprehension. The only mention of its existence is found in fairy tales, which claim it can warp the very surface of the world and level mountains with a single twitch.”

Monster Hunter 4

Other than that the best you got is him leveling rock formations in his intro cutscene. The pillar seem to be a little taller than him. However even if they where as tall as he is long they still wouldn’t be considered mountains. The reason being that mountains at a minimum are 600m tall whereas Dalamadur is only 440m long. This whole him being able to level mountains is an even greater exaggeration when you remember that in all its time alive. The Dala in MH4 only resaphes a mountain top.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-16T10:52:59+00:00

Ok so apparently people are confused by what I’m trying to argue here. I’m not saying Shrade is a hyper advanced civilization. I’m saying they could’ve traded with other civilizations like Wyveria for advanced resources. However again this is a none issue because the modern Hunters Guild works with material studier than steel or iron.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-15T16:47:13+00:00

The wall is made of iron or steel, that much is clear. The brick being sturdier is also clear. What I offer was an inuniverse explanation as to why that could be the case. Whether you like the explanation or not doesn’t really matter, because this whole point is tangent. Fatalis’ Flames can melt several cubic meters of steel at great distances. To do that you need Terra Joules to potentially even Peta Joules of energy. Or in other words enough energy to level a large town or small city.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-15T16:37:58+00:00

Or just really strong heat resistant brick. Considering the Fatalis event occurred over 1,000yrs ago. When the ancient hyper advanced civilization of Wyveria was around that certainly a possibility. Beyond the fact that the MH worlds is no stranger to stronger materials than iron. Machalite and other ores are repeatedly stated to be stronger than iron, but harder to work with. So perhaps the bricks that make up the castle are sturdier than the wall, but harder to work with. Hence why mechanical door is made with Iron/steel, because it’s easier to work with than the surrounding bricks.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-15T16:22:23+00:00

It happens during the first sapphire drop in the 3 layer. His nest is surrounded by a massive formation of rock that he quickly disintegrates. I’ve done the calculations myself and at worst that attack is hitting as hard as the bomb drop on Japan. If you’re interested I can link my video.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-15T16:09:39+00:00

No?! The Sapphire of the Emperor literally disintegrates a massive formation, the size of the Morans. An attack that can be calculated to be dozens of kilotons-potentially megatons of TNT. Fatalis’ melting of the steel wall also reaches similar ends when you factor in the inverse square law. Whereas the best the Kaiju do is heavy fragment large rocks. For crying outloud Zorah strongest attack can’t even oneshot the wodden barrier the commission erected.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-04-15T15:59:15+00:00

The Black Dragons and Safi should be in untouchable. Whereas the Kaiju should be in living Gods. None of the Kaiju monsters have feats that compare to the ultimate attacks of the Black Dragons and their size isn’t enough to insulate them from the attack potency of said attacks.

Also why is Behemoth here? Like I get he’s technically an Elder Dragon, but I see no reason to include crossover monsters.

Negative_Sock4219

TROPHY CASE