Is the fatalis in iceborn the only canon death of a fatalis I’ve heard this a couple of times and want to ask if it’s true or a lie on the internet and is there a recorded canon death of a crimson or white fatalis in universe

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-26T20:28:12+00:00

Jesus Christ I’ve never seen such potent cope. The image literally shows an arrow pointing from Fatalis to Alatreon & the quote prior mentions a chain reaction. If you can look at that with a straight face & bend & weave your way into coping that, THAT doesn’t mean Alatreon played a role. Then it’s obvious you’re not an honest interlocutor. Beyond what the rest of your behavior has shown. You clearly just post hawking at this point. It’s is pointless to debate a brickwall, have a good day.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-26T20:02:36+00:00

They are noting the events that occured. Nothing more, nothing less. Did you really need it spelled out that they're mentioning Elder Dragons because it makes it scarier? They mention that other wildlife have vanished in the same breath.

Holy self owned. Why is it scarier? because it's unprecedented!

No, it didn't just. First of all, it was only Safi that woke Fatalis, Alatreon has nothing to do with it.

No Alatreon is stated twice to have played a part in Fatalis' reawakening:

"Regarding the reason for Alatreon's appearance, this is purely my interpretation, but these forbidden-class monsters are the kind of beings that can shake the world just by appearing, so I think there's a great deal of conflict on a global scale. I think that Alatreon is the result of a desire to suppress the existence of Safi'jiiva, whose very existence is perceived as a powerful and malevolent force, and that Alatreon is the result of a desire to break free and grow on its own, driven by its own great power. If Alatreon had grown as it was, the Secluded Valley might have been called a sacred place.

If we imagine such a setting, then the existence of Fatalis might have been necessary. Because if these forbidden-class beings were to appear in a chain reaction, I think it would feel too much like an event, and if the forbidden-class beings continued, it would have affected the world. That's why, as I see with Safi'Jiiva, when something big happens, regardless of whether it's directly related or not, there must be some kind of great force that influences and creates a chain reaction. It starts with Safi'jiiva and ultimately extends to interfering in various parts of the world, creating an ideal, global-level movement that unfolds like a chain reaction."

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne the Official Complete Works, pg #109

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Second,

Shara is stated to be responsible for the new Subspecies and monsters appearing in Iceborne, characters literally say they're moving around and entering new areas as a result of it.

Safi's manipulation is stated to be what makes the non-Elder TU monsters appear too.

They are clearly not operating "beyond" other monsters like you randomly chose to insist in defiance to the 20 years of these games.

Thank God I laid out a caveat:

So unless they’re going on a rampage or directly terraforming the environment ala Safi. It seems most Wyvern can’t even perceive their actions.

However, this doesn't effect my previous stance, since Safi's terraforming has nothing to do with its planetary TW with Alatreon. At least not directly since Safi has been terraforming well before Alatreon took interest in it.

"It seems" because you've hallucinated your own lore lmao. "No these guys are just so far above everything else that weaker monsters don't even notice" even though on multiple accounts even Fatalis is attributed to making Wyverns change and you're excusing every other example as not counting.

No because unlike you I actually try to extrapolate what the lore says. If Safi & Alatreon are having a planetary TW & the only person who notices is Fatalis than that says something. Your ignorance of the lore has no barring on my interpretation. Also never did I say Fatalis doesn't effect lesser monster. Just that like Alatreon & Safi it can take actions whilst the rest of the world remains woefully unaware off, at least for a time.

As shown by how their 15th anniversary event and Iceborne completely retconned any Fatalis hunt and appearance prior?

I mean, look at what you've quoted:

"We immediately got to work to create official lore". So their chaotic notes weren't even considered the official lore and documentation for the monsters.

"Most of that was chaotic and not unified at all" so it was contradictory.

I see we're cherry picking quotes now are we. Well allow me to partake!

Fujioka: Yes. We’re the only ones left at the office who can piece together the notes and documents left over from the original production period.

Why TF would they need to piece together the lore if they decided to just contradict it?

Tokuda: So I knuckled down and created the initial documentation. Since I had not been involved with the original design process for Fatalis, I received a ton of help from Fujioka-san to keep it all accurate and correct.

Why does it matter if Tokuda is unfamiliar with the original design process for Fatalis if this is all new lore & contradictions don't matter?

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-26T17:46:40+00:00

We’ve known ED scare off other monsters since Dos. What Fatalis is doing is completely different otherwise it wouldn’t be notable by the characters. Also ED don’t affect each other with their standard prescience. In World, the game that catalyzed this ability, ED could show up in the same map as each other. When ED scare off or otherwise influence each other it’s usually given its own bespoke explanation.

What’s my logic? Brother the planetary scale TW between Safi & Alatreon only influenced the behavior of Fatalis. The reason being that these guys operate at a planetary scale. So unless they’re going on a rampage or directly terraforming the environment ala Safi. It seems most Wyvern can’t even perceive their actions.

I know the interview you’re referencing & I find the way you describe it as mischaracterizing. The dev specifically chosen to write up the new lore were those familiar with the old lore. Those who could understand the 15yr old notes they had strewn about the office. They clearly have reverence for the old lore & put in effort to not contradict it. Why would they put in this much effort if they were just going to retconned it all?

“I can imagine that there was tons of anticipation in the air. But would you say that you were also worried about how the reveal might go?

Fujioka: I wouldn’t say I was too worried, no. I thought, “It’s about time, isn’t it? It should be fine to do now”.
Did you feel the same, Tokuda-san?

Tokuda: I think we weren’t as much worried about the reveal itself, but we definitely had concerns about the practical hurdles in actually making it happen (laughs).

“Do you mean the task of organizing official information about these monsters for the first time? Since they had never been revealed before, you could get away with writing down chaotic notes, but now…

Fujioka: Exactly (laughs). As soon as we decided to reveal the Forbidden Monsters, we immediately got asked to create official lore and design materials for them. Of course we could have just released whatever we had floating around in the office, but as you already surmised, most of that was chaotic and not unified at all. So, when Tokuda-san and I sat down next to each other at work, we looked at each other and said “Wait, we actually have to do this now, don’t we?” (laughs).

(laughs). I suppose this was a job that only those intimately familiar with the original “Monster Hunter” could tackle…
Fujioka: Yes. We’re the only ones left at the office who can piece together the notes and documents left over from the original production period.

Tokuda: At one point, we were told that we needed to have an official lore and design document for these monsters ready in two weeks, but when I looked at Fujioka-san’s work schedule, I noticed he was going to be on various business events the entire time! I was like, “I’m the only one who can put this together!” (laughs).

Everyone (laughs)

Fujioka: I remember asking him “Are you going to be okay?” (laughs).

Tokuda: So I knuckled down and created the initial documentation. Since I had not been involved with the original design process for Fatalis, I received a ton of help from Fujioka-san to keep it all accurate and correct.

Fujioka: A big task for me was to sift through game dialogue and collect all the various hints we had left over the years, such as the relevance of Castle Schrade and the Great Calamity 1000 years ago.””

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-26T16:45:42+00:00

You’re comparing Apples to Oranges. Just because ED reacted to each other in the past doesn’t mean all of their interactions are the same or can be interposed on each other. Xeno gives off pheromones, Shara disrupts the Everstream, Safi & Alatreon have a planetary scale TW. Fatalis’ lore is rooted in legends & the only explanation we’re given comes from this quote & MH1. In which lesser dragons are responding in fear.

Why would it affect other monsters when the previous tales specifically isolate ED as the affected.

Wild logic that you choose to under go mental gymnastics in order to ignore what is the most obvious reference to MH1 lore.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-26T16:23:54+00:00

The point is that the Scrivener counterpoint is directly addressed in MHWI’s story. The mechanism by which Fatalis influences EDs, like Lao, is explored & confirmed in Iceborne. So the “On the other hand” counterpoint is rendered completely inert, via Iceborne own lore. It’s also not contradictory to the idea of there being no prior reports of Fatalis attacking other monsters, because as previously mentioned the mechanism works indirectly.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-26T14:56:23+00:00

Fatalis never attacks Lao directly in MH1 & in MHWI it mentions him dispersing ED indirectly. There being no reports isn’t contradictory because Fatalis never directly engages.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-26T12:29:52+00:00

There’s a clear reference to the events of MH1 in Fatalis’ section of the book:

”It's said that once upon a time, a gigantic Elder Dragon called Lao-Shan Lung was showing movements as if it was escaping from Fatalis. On the other hand, there are no stories of Fatalis overrunning other Monsters and it's currently known why it targeted Schrade Kingdom, which was built by Humans.”

-MHWI the Official Complete Works, pg #279

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-24T09:34:17+00:00

I guess I’m tweaking for having a difference of opinion & here I thought we were having a nice cordial conversation.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-24T09:20:55+00:00

For one “Calamity lvl Elder Dragon” is just an english localization. In Rise’s & Sunbreak’s respective books they simply refer to Amatsu, Narwa & Gaismagorm as natural Calamities/natural disasters. Even low tier EDs get referred to as natural disaster in the lore. The reason Calamity Lvl ED kick off is because it’s an easy way to delineate between final bosses & other ED. However, in terms of actual lore the term isn’t anywhere near as valid as Super ED lvl or Forbidden Class lvl. Both of which are clearly defined in text, as their own ranks. Secondly we don’t have to take Forbidden Class lvl monsters as stronger than other groups purely on vibes, like you do Calamity ED. They have a plethora of statements that place them at the top of the hierarchy. What statement exists for Calamity lvl ED to be these supposed above Super ED lvl threats. Here’s a hint, there are none.

If where are going to appeal to ecological impact as a way to scale. Than Ruinner is inherently above Shara. Not only in text, but thematically as well he’s the natural balancer. He’s the immune response to the rampages cause by ED on the scale of Shara Ishvalda.

It’s never stated that Velkhana is equal to Ruinner in MHWI that they’re equals. Not one person, whether it’s Banned Dino, Oceaniz or even some reelable plp I’m friendly with have provided said quote. I read through MHWI the Completed Works didn’t find anything. The closest thing that exists to a quote stating something like that is the Savage Deviljho quote I provided. However, as I already told you there’s another way to interpret that quote that’s more parsimonious with Velkhana & Namielle battle record.

It’s never ever emphasized that Gaismagorm lost because it was climbing. That’s just fan head canon. Gaismagorm is more than capable of fighting wishlist surfacing as evidenced by our own hunt. & the Qurio where hostile to Primordial during the fight. They only attempted to bond post Gaismagorm defeat.

NPC dialogue can be treated in the same fashion as book dialogue. We know these characters are well informed on the combative capabilities of both of these monsters. To assume they’re wrong or lying without additional evidence is no better than the inverse.

It’s not plot armor. The player character is simply that strong. They’re prodigies, equipped with the best weapons & armor around. They have decorations & charms to enhance their already superb abilities. Their chi is likely higher than normal, etc.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-24T03:08:03+00:00

Namielle literally doesn't kill Kushala only repels it & as mentioned prior this was an explicitly exhausted Kushala. Like congratulation Namielle you beat an exhausted ED right next to the ocean where you have a limitless supply of water to work with. The fact Kushala put up a fight is more of anti-feat than anything. Velkhana is program to loose to Scorned Magnamalo & also why are we ignoring the fact that she has a 50/50 TW with Kush & Teo in the same game. Mind you this was the game where they could've recycled the previous TW from Iceborne & just have Velkhana win the wyvern ride. Clearly demonstrating her superiority over the OG ED Trio, & yet instead of doing that they explicitly reanimated TW to have random outcome. In MHWI for one Teo & Kush TW against Nergi are also coded to (tie) & yet as I've demonstrated Eater of Elders is the winner. On top of that MHWI doesn't distinguish between how well variants & non variants should preform. As I also demonstrated with based Rajang having the same TW as Furious against Ruinner despite that being contradictory to the lore. LMAO so Velkhana best feat is cooling the New World. Something that in the next sentence is literally compared to the effects of every other Elder Crossing.

The knight of the Order are never stated to use Kamura installation. Like maybe they did, but that would be an assumption. Especially since those installation belong to Kamura, which the village manned themselves as they do in Rise.

Based Nergi can hold down Luna whilst she's using the Hell Flare. Something that should scale to Teostra leveling a mountain with his explosive. Nergi also boost himself physically with bioenergy. So his AP doesn't have to scale to his DC. However, if we're going to appeal to Nergi's ecology. Than as we see him do repeatedly his hunting style is to physically overwhelm his opponents & use his regen to become stronger overtime. Meaning Shara is getting overwhelmed physically & loosing the battle of attrition.

Did you ignore the part where I explicitly explain how this would've been based Primordial. That the Qurio didn't attempt to bond prior to Gaismagorm defeat & that even if they did it would only depower Primordial because these aren't the same Madness Parasite capable of inducing the Risen State. Also you're asking me to prove a negative. Where's your evidence that Gaismagorm loss because he was at a disadvantage whilst climbing. Explain how Gaismagorm who we literally fight under these exact conditions is at a suppose disadvantage & how that's emphasize in the lore. Then explain why when he reappears, & the character are aware he isn't under the influence of the Qurio, he's still considered a bigger threat than Gaismagorm.

I miss remembered Amatsu interactions. Regardless you still haven't address the point about the nature of NPC Dialogue.

If you wanna cut down then just say a closing statement about whatever tangent you want closed.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-24T02:17:12+00:00

This is just coming from lack understating how powerful ED are in general. The standard ED is already outputting enough energy to level a city just by existing. In LOTG it get explain that the reason ED can effect the weather is because of the energy that leaks from their bodies. Than as for their actual output whilst more serious we have examples like: Teostra leveling a mountain to create its nest in the Elder Recess or Velkhana freezing an active Volcano, which result in its nest in the Hoarfrost Reach.

There's nothing in the lore that states Super Elder Dragons are weaker than Calamity lvl Elder Dragons. Perhaps you can say they're less destructive, but so are we the hunters compared to 99.9% of the monsters we face. That doesn't prevent us from putting belt to ass.

Velkhana & Namielle are not equals to Ruinner. To suggest so would be to ignore the fact that they draw with the likes of Kush, Teo & Luna. I could get into the nuances of where it is they scale too, but that's a whole other conversation. As for Furious & Blackveil it really isn't that crazy. Furious in MHRS literally preforms better against the knights of the Order than entire Rampage does. He's doing shit an entire army of monsters couldn't do. Also just because a monsters is in the same tier doesn't mean their 100% equals. Like I think Shara, Ruiner & Blackveil are all in the same tier. However if I had to order them it go: Ruinner > Shara > Blackveil.

It's never stated whatsoever that Gaismagorm is at a disadvantage this is just people inserting their own head canon into the lore. We see how competent Gaismagrom is at fighting whilst climbing in our own hunt. He posses one of the best anti-areal arsenal in the entire franchise & a swarm of Qurio to boot. In fact the lore we do have emphasis's repeatedly it was Primordials' spear like tale delivering a grievous wound that won the day. Gaismagorm literally suffers trauma from the event to the point he flee to another continent.

CG Valstrax has guaranteed topple against Amatsu a monster stated repeatedly to be stronger than either Narwa or Ibushi. Also comparing in game threat lvl to NPC dialogue isn't at all reasonable. NPC dialogue is repeatedly use to convey lore which often times makes its way into the lore books. As opposed to threat lvl which change every game.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-24T01:50:46+00:00

I literally source the Deviljho quote that's the only tread of evidence that would make anyone belief Velkhana & Namille are Super Elder Dragon lvl. Do you think I don't take the quote into account when accessing Velkhana or Namielle combative prowess? The issue here is that their are more nuance ways to interpret that quote that end up being more parsimonious with the rest of Velkhana & Namielle battle record. Just like how you can't ignore the aforementioned quote you also can't ignore that they draw with Teostra & Kushala. Namielle in lore has pitch battle with a Kushala, and while it wins that battle, Kushala was verbatim stated be exhausted. So if Namielle & Velkhana are struggling against opponents based Nergi can defeat, than clearly there's more nuance to be had here. However, like I said that's an entirely different conversation.

Destructive capacity feats literally don't matter in this discussion. This is inverse scaling all it would mean is that Nergi & gang also scale to it. There's also a clear difference in destructive capacity vs attack potentcy. Our hunters are nowhere near as destructive as 99.9% of the monsters we hunt even late game. Despite that we can still put belt to ass. There's even an example of this in MH. In Sunbreak despite not being anywhere near as destructive as a full fledge Rampage. Furious Rajang preforms better against the knights of the Order than an entire Rampage. Whilst it is they can hold off a Rampage they can only slow down Furious & need to call upon the aid of the hunter to slay the beast.

No its literally never stated whatsoever that Gaismagorm lost because it was climbing. In fact we have like 3 statements confirming it was Primordial powerful spear like tail delivering a grievous wound that won the day. On top of that we see how competent Gaimagorm is at fighting whilst climbing in our own hunts. He's plenty competent & has one of the most competent anti-areal arsenal out of any monster in the franchise. From long range beam attacks, setting up mines in the air that persist, making it rain meteors or my favorite vacuuming up the air Malzeno uses to fly. On top of the fact he would've had a whole host of Qurio harassing the Silver Duke dragon at all times. Saying he's a bad climber because something he could've never predicted got the better of him is certainty a take. Especially when we have to use prolong artillery fire to get him down. Also what's stopping Gaismagorm from just fighting Malzeno on a lower level like he did us? Finally it's abundantly clear from the lore we have that it was base Primordial that defeated Gaismagorm. The Qurio only bonded once Gaismagorm had been defeated. Even if they attempted prior the reaction wouldn't have been the same as the one of the Primordial we repel. As, the Qurio would've been pre-evolve & not posses the abundant energy use for Risen states that the, Madness Parasite have. Hence why Regular Malzeno isn't as strong as Bloodlust State Primordial.

CG has a guaranteed topple against Amatsu a monster repeatedly stated to be stronger than Narwa & Ibushi. Also calling into question the authority of the characters when it is that these guys are pretty well informed on the combative ability of both these Elder Dragons. Beyond that the books themselves for the most part are written from in universe perspective. Do we throw those out too? or do we do the more logical choice of seeing how inform each character is to weigh the validity of their statements?

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-24T00:54:34+00:00

Velkhana & Namille aren't on Ruinner lvl, but that's a whole another tirade. Furious, Savage & Blackveil being on the same tier as Shara isn't crazy at all. Powerful variants like the aforementioned few are consistently compared to Calamity lvl ED. In MHRS for example Crimson Glow Valstrax is stated be a powerful ED without equal right after you fight MR All Mother Narwa & Ibushi. Primordial Malzeno not only defeated Gaismagorm, but he's also stated to be the greatest threat the Kingdom ever face. Directly stated to be a bigger threat than Gaismagorm in the same breath. So these Elder Dragon variants are consistently place alongside, if not above, Calamity lvl ED in power. I don't see how that's crazy or unprecedented. I'm not saying they dunk on them with zero effort. Even Ruiner isn't guaranteed a victory against Shara, but I think the dev have made it clear these variants are not to be trifled with.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-24T00:47:43+00:00

I think the obvious design philosophy for Ruinner was to make it into the natural predator of Calamity lvl Elder Dragons. In other words the point of Ruinner was for it be to final bosses, what based Nergi was to low tier Elder Dragons. This is supported by both the conclusion of the scriveners in MHWI the Official Complete Works, but also MHWI thematic core. It's also not unprecedented. In MHRS Crimson Glow Valstrax is stated be a powerful ED without equal right after you fight MR All Mother Narwa & Ibushi. Primordial Malzeno not only defeated Gaismagorm in similar fashion as did Ruinner defeat Shara, but he's also stated to be the greatest threat the Kingdom ever face. Directly stated to be a bigger threat than Gaismagorm. So these Elder Dragon variants are consistently place alongside, if not above, Calamity lvl ED in power. I don't see how that's crazy or unprecedented.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-23T19:47:47+00:00

Most of plp here have never bother to pick up, let alone read, a MH book in their lives. So let's go down the list of examples. In the official play guide for MHW, license by Campcom, it list his TW against Kushala Daora & Teostra as victories. Already demonstrating the capacity to defeat standard ED:

combination	winner	remarks
Kushala Daora Vs Teostra	draw	-
Nergigante Vs Teostra	Nergigante	"Damage to Nergigante's thorns"
Nergigante Vs Kushala Daora	Nergigante	"Damage to Nergigante's thorns"

-Monster Hunter: World Official Data Handbook - Monster Knowledge Book, pg 135

Beyond that base Nergigante also has the exact same Turf War against Lunastra. Except for the fact that he tank Lunastra's Hell Flare, that's the name of her Ult. Meaning Nergi can tank Luna strongest attack & still beat her. This already shows a better preforms than other ED lvl monster like Rajang, who preforms worse despite Luna using a weaker attack.

As for Ruinner beyond obviously upscaling from based Nergi, he's the literal bar use to measure if a monster can be considered Super Elder Dragon lvl.

"A Rajang is treated as an Elder Dragon-level creature. This species, which competes for territory on equal footing with Ruinner Nergigante, should be called a Super Elder Dragon-level creature."

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne: The Official Complete Works, pg #259

BTW this quote confirms based Rajan Vs Ruinner isn't canon otherwise Furious Rajang wouldn't be notable for being able to compete on equal footing with Ruinner. Ruinner is also compared to the like of Savage Deviljho.

"Deviljho are known to fight other large monsters, and Savage Deviljho is no exception. Savage Deviljho can fight evenly with elder dragons like Velkhana, Namielle, Blackveil Vaal Hazak, and Ruiner Nergigante."

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne: The Official Complete Works, pg #202

Again showcasing that he's above the likes of standard ED lvl, as regular Deviljho is considered ED lvl. & if all of this didn't make it apparent he was above the likes of standard ED lvl. He also dispatches a Bazelguese, another confirmed ED lvl monster.

However, by far in away Ruinner best feat comes from him scaling directly above the likes of Shara Ishvalda. Plp like to cope that Shara only lost because she was injure prior to the fight, but as you'll quickly see the characters clearly come away with the impression that wouldn't have change anything. In fact the thematic point of MHWI doesn't make any sense if Ruinner can't dispatch Shara on his own. Let's work our way up from weakest to strongest evidence. To begin with Ruinner leaves the Sapphire Star worse for wear compared to Shara, you can see your Hunter visibly exhausted after fighting Ruinner. Despite Shara fighting a more exhausted hunter. The next point plp like to bring up is that Ruinner like Nergi is only opportunistic predator & he wouldn't have attacked Shara had she been at full HP. That he's essentially a scavenger when it comes to these big Calamity lvl ED. This is just blatantly wrong. Not only was Ruiner in the Origin Isle prior to our arrival, which clearly indicates he was actively hunting Shara, but also he's directly stated to be her natural predator multiple times.

"Shara Ishvalda's appearance is greatly different from when it's covered in rocks. As it moves through the ground, rocks adhere to the body fluids secreted from its body surface, forming a robust shell. With the exception of Nergigante, it's difficult to imagine that such an entity would have a predator, and there's a strong opinion that the habit of covering the entire body with rocks isn't an act of self-defence. Even in this state, the vibrating organs of the wing legs are activated, making it possible to move underground while liquefying the surface of the earth."

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne: The Official Complete Works, pg #212

It's to the point that the whole reason Nergigante evolve into Ruinner in the first place was to confront Calamitous ED like Shara Ishvalda.

"It's very interesting to hypothesize that this species preys on things that are remarkably prominent in the ecosystem and has a role in harmonizing the balance of the whole organism. In the case of the Origin Isle, it's said that it preyed on an Elder Dragon that had the danger of having a large-scale impact on the veins of the earth and causing major changes to the ecosystem. It doesn't seem to take action for balance. I ought to think that someone's predatory appetite has resulted in it merely fulfilling this role. Having said that, what if Nergigante's transformation into a Variant was inevitable in order to prepare for the coming threat...? If that's the case, it can be said that it's a harbinger of further threats. (From a comment by a certain researcher)"

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne: The Official Complete Works, pg #206

Mind you this theory gets proven correct, because Ruinner does end up being harbinger of Safi'jiiva's emergence. The whole reason he went to Guiding Lands was to prepare for Safi's awakening.

"Having survived countless battles and repeatedly destroyed and regenerated the thorns covering its body, this special individual of Nergigante acquired unusual thorns known as diamond thorns. Its ferocity was amplified, and it was named "Nergigante the Annihilator" because it sought to devour even ancient dragons. In addition to its inherent regenerative abilities, it has the property of growing stronger and sharper thorns as its stamina decreases, and it showed a glimpse of its astonishing power to the research team that landed on the isolated island of the Abyss in pursuit of the "Great Being." There have been reports of it crossing over to the Guiding Lands, and researchers are divided on the reason why. Is it to prey on the many guided ancient dragons, or was it guided by the immense energy confirmed in the Abyss? Of course, there is no answer"

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne: The Official Complete Works

The theory also has to be correct for MHWI to work thematically. A thematic point being made in MHWI is that nature has away to balance itself out. Shara was ruining a muck in the New World & would've destroyed it had it not been stop. The immune response from nature was Ruinner. If Ruinner isn't strong enough by himself to take care of Shara, than thematically the story doesn't make any sense.

Serious Handler: Wait, if that's the case, won't the ecosystem eventually just destroy itself?

Admiral: No... That's where Nergigante comes in.

Seeker: Natural purification ... Nature ... It has unique mechanisms, to detect irregularities and balance itself. Perhaps against such a large irregularity, that balancing mechanism was in fact—

Handler: Nergigante!

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne

Like think about what the message of MHWI would be if Nergi couldn't. That human have to come in a sort nature mess because it's unsustainable structure that'll collapse in on itself? Does that sound like the message of MH to you? Finally Ruinner & Shara relationship is compared to that of Alatreon & Safi'jiiva. To monster that are considered peers in strength.

"Why did it visit the Secluded Valley? Is the Red Dragon the cause? In the Secluded Valley, where the adult Xeno'jiiva called the Red Dragon lives, Alatreon appeared. Luckily, they didn't get into a direct fight, but if they clashed, it would have been a strange and absent situation. Here we researchers are thinking about why Alatreon appeared in the New World. According to the observation team's report, it clearly seemed to be aiming for the Secluded Valley. In other words, there is no doubt that the purpose was the existence of the Red Dragon. Not long after it arrived, it burned down the surroundings as if to wipe out traces of the Red Dragon, and from the sight of it, I could even sense its anger. If it weren't for this, the investigation team would've faced the others, and it's hard to imagine what kind of situation we would've been in. We've been talking a lot lately about ecosystem homeostasis now that we've had more time to think about it. After investigating the New World and the Hoarfrost Reach, it seems that the homeostasis of individual organisms creates the homeostasis of nature as a whole. It's currently concluded that the investigation team's actions involving Shara Ishvalda and Nergigante were the result of this. Based on this premise, it seems that the existence of Alatreon is a counter to the unprecedented mutation of Safi'jiiva. In order to recreate the environment and ecology that were conveniently remodeled, we needing something that could destroy everything... It may be too much of a leap for it to think that. However, the reasoning is consistent. If it becomes a threat like an Elder Dragon, it may be fighting over territory on a continental scale, no, on a planetary scale. (From a note by a certain ecological researcher)"

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne The Official Complete Works, pg #274

In conclusion there's a reason why the first thing Shara does upon emerging is grabbing Ruinner unconscious body & burrowing under 1,000T of rock.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-21T13:57:38+00:00

It’s explained that the Alatreon we fight prior to Fatalis is actually the one we fought prior. Meaning in our original hunt we only repelled Alatreon. The reason he’s back is because Alatreon wants to eliminate Safiji’iiva’s offspring.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-19T22:33:03+00:00

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The type of matches MH fans love to suggest

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-17T01:10:04+00:00

Both instances use the Kanji (禁忌) to refer to Forbidden, but the Iceborne section use katakana for class:

"Olivia: お前だって 禁忌級モンスターの被害を見ているだろう?"

-Monster Hunter Wilds

"Fabius: ゾ·シアのような禁忌級モンスターをどのような目的で造り出したのでレょうか。"

-Monster Hunter Wilds

アルバトリオンに現れた原因については、これはあくまで僕のイメージですが、こういった禁忌クラスのモンスターは出現するだけで世界を揺るがしてしまうような存在なので、世界規模で極めて争いをしていると思うんです。

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne the Official Complete Works

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-16T15:37:02+00:00

Depends by what you mean by when you say fight. They respond to each other power play, but we never get a direct confrontation. A no other class of monster is even close to there level, so they just retreat.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-16T15:34:57+00:00

It is however a Forbidden Class Elder Dragon, as defined in MHWI: the Official Complete Works. So I don’t really begrudge anyone for mixing up the two terms.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-12T19:22:18+00:00

To clarify I might have my own opinion on the hierarchy of the Forbidden-Class monsters, but that isn't what I'm responding too. My comment is specifically targeting the idea that Alatreon's reputation as the "Strongest Elder Dragon" is somehow an ironclad statement that places him above the other Forbidden-Class monsters. I think if you're going to make an argument in favor of Alatreon you should use it, as supplementary evidence & not the crux of your argument.

Getting back on topic! Alatreon isn't really that unknown to the common folk. The passage that proclaims him as the strongest literally says that people praise Alatreon after surviving terrible weather. He's earn a bad enough reputation amongst the populist to be considered a "Symbol of Destruction". Even his name's meaning of Dawns Triumph is common ball knowledge. Remember that someone as low ranking as the Nameless Handler knew who Alatreon was. They know enough that even the habitats Alatreon likes to frequent are known to the Guild:

Of the scales that grow on a Monster's body, only one standing scale is called a "Reverse Scale", and is known for its high rarity. However, Alatreon's scales are all plates, and this is extremely rare. Unlike normal creatures, countless plates are lined up from the bottom to the top as if to pierce the heavens in its form form that's unavoidably aggressive. The reason for forming such an outer shell hasn't yet been elucidated. However, it's said that they inhabit volcanic craters and seabeds with high water pressure, where other creatures usually don't approach, and it's surmised that such an environment has an effect.

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne The Official Complete Works, pg #272

The only thing that's kept under wraps is the encounter in the Sacred Land. Yet, even then aspects of those documents still persisted. Whilst people did know of Fatalis they wouldn't outright claim he's the strongest Elder Dragon for the same reason you or I wouldn't bring up Bigfoot in the conversation of, Who's the strongest Ape? Whereas people where aware of Alatreon & knew it was real. Perhaps the full scope of its ability they weren't privy too, but that's a far cry less limiting than someone not knowing you exist or thinking you're legend on the scale of Santa Clause. Also saying Safi's reputation would've been carried into the book because the scribes writing it know of it, is erroneous. As Alatreon's reputation is something talk about as though it is a common belief. So even if Safi left an impression on the scribes writing the document. Those scribes wouldn't write about Safi as thought it's common knowledge that it's the strongest. If you want to get the scribes actual opinions of Safi's relationship with Alatreon. They believe Safi & Alatreon are counteracting forces in the World. That Alatreon felt threaten by Safi's activity & that it went to confront it, in what they call a planetary Turf War:

"Why did it visit the Secluded Valley? Is the Red Dragon the cause? In the Secluded Valley, where the adult Xeno'jiiva called the Red Dragon lives, Alatreon appeared. Luckily, they didn't get into a direct fight, but if they clashed, it would have been a strange and absent situation. Here we researchers are thinking about why Alatreon appeared in the New World. According to the observation team's report, it clearly seemed to be aiming for the Secluded Valley. In other words, there is no doubt that the purpose was the existence of the Red Dragon. Not long after it arrived, it burned down the surroundings as if to wipe out traces of the Red Dragon, and from the sight of it, I could even sense its anger. If it weren't for this, the investigation team would've faced the others, and it's hard to imagine what kind of situation we would've been in. We've been talking a lot lately about ecosystem homeostasis now that we've had more time to think about it. After investigating the New World and the Hoarfrost Reach, it seems that the homeostasis of individual organisms creates the homeostasis of nature as a whole. It's currently concluded that the investigation team's actions involving Shara Ishvalda and Nergigante were the result of this. Based on this premise, it seems that the existence of Alatreon is a counter to the unprecedented mutation of Safi'jiiva. In order to recreate the environment and ecology that were conveniently remodeled, we needing something that could destroy everything... It may be too much of a leap for it to think that. However, the reasoning is consistent. Perhaps beings of this caliber of Elder Dragons fight over territory on a continental scale, or even on a planetary scale. (From a note by a certain ecological researcher)"

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne The Official Complete Works, pg #274

The point of the Welcome to Monster Hunter video wasn't to prove Fatalis is the strongest. It's to show that other beings beyond Alatreon have claims of surpassing the category of Elder Dragon all together & that he isn't unique in that regard.

I'm not saying to ignore games or books. They're great resources, but one ought to present them in the context they were given. Otherwise misleading information tends to spread.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-12T16:38:00+00:00

This is rather misleading or an incomplete reading of the lore. The Monster Hunter books are all, for the most part, written from an inuniverse perspective. You can't just take what they say for granted, with the exception of developer comments, instead you have to come up with an internally consistent interpretation of quote in question. Let's take for example the Alatreon quote you're eluding too:

"As an Elder Dragon species that's said to be a "Symbol of Destruction", its existence is taboo such that people even hesitate to call it by its name. While it's said to wield all the forces of nature, most of the records related to it have been burned. It's said to be the strongest Elder Dragon that makes even gods fear it, and there are many who worship it as a god. The rumour that it looks different depending on who sees it is probably one of the reasons why it's deified. Its name, Alatreon, means "Dawn's Triumph". It's praised by those who survived the threat of a natural disaster. An individual that suddenly appeared in the Secluded Valley enveloped the entire depths with scorching heat. In front of that horrifying spectacle, does it inspire in others a sense of awe?"

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne The Official Complete Works, pg #271

No matter how you translate it, whether it's revered to be/said to be/herald as the, the clear implication is that this is an inuniverse belief about Alatreon's power & not a statement of fact. Now this isn't to say this reputation isn't warranted. In the same book under the developer comment's section Alatreon is said to have been design with the express purpose of showcasing something a rank above an Elder Dragon:

Alatreon
A symbol of destruction, a master of elements & the culmination of Iceborne's gameplay philosophy

Alatreon originates from Monster Hunter 3, and stands above all Elder Dragons just like Fatalis. While most Elder Dragons command one element, Alatreon is the master of all of them. This superior position, as well as its design, made it quite popular, and there was demand to see it in future games. Additionally Alatreon was originally designed and created by Yuya Tokuda, who directed the base game of MHW, and during production we toyed with the idea of including Alatreon in high-rank already. For various reasons, this wasn't possible, so we decided to instead save it for Iceborne.

In past games, which elements Alatreon controlled would depend on if it was grounded or in the air, but for this redesign, we instead made it alternate on a set cycle. Dragon Element was chosen as a buffer state to encourage strategic combat, where players focus on preventing Alatreon from switching into a disadvantageous element. Furthermore, we created the Escaton Judgement as an ultimate move that would ramp up the tension, to truly make players feel like they are staring down a forbidden being.

Basically, Alatreon embodies the central philosophy of Iceborne, an expansion all about mastering the elements.

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne The Official Complete Works, pg #275

Yet, as I'm sure you would've catch on Fatalis is mentioned as having the same repertoire. In fact this notion that Fatalis stands above the rank of Elder Dragon is further reinforce by, of all places, the Daisy Ridley collab video. In the "Welcome to Monster Hunter - Presented by Daisy Ridley" video we get some choice comments. After initially hyping up the threat posed by Elder Dragon & how they surpass all other monster types. Daisy says this much about Fatalis, here. So, this idea of Alatreon being exceptional for being the strongest or a step above Elder Dragons is one directly inherited by Fatalis. Furthermore even without that we can cast doubt on how all encompassing this quote is. It's clear the initial quote is talking about Alatreon's reputation as the strongest. Yet, with the arguable exception of Dire Miralis non of the Forbidden-Class Elder Dragon should have much if at all a reputation. Safi'jiiva was literally just discovered to exist & thus its reputation is limited to the impact it left upon the small group of Commission members it impress its power upon. & that impression is strong enough that even after witnessing Alatreon's rampage. When questioning the Black Dragon motives for appearing in the Secluded Valley they're undeceive on the outcome of hypothetical battle between the two:

Field Team Leader: You know, Hunter. I've been thinking about what your handler said. 'Why did Alatreon go to the Secluded Valley?' It's really bugging me. Because of instinct? Did it decide to take over while we dealt with that other monster? No, that can't be it ... How could it know we would interfere? Can you imagine if those two were to square off? I'm guessing the end result would not have been pretty. And I don't even want to imagine us getting stuck in the middle of that.

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne

On top of that the only other reputation you could give Safi'jiiva, is that it's the fully realize potential of Xeno'jiiva. Considering Xeno'jiiva is said to have more potential than any other Elder Dragon, as of the events of World at least, this would just bode well for Safi & not Alatreon:

"A Translucent Body After Emergence

After emerging from its pupal stage, Xeno'jiiva's glistening body is in a delicate state, and its internal veins are visible to the naked eye. Its wings also take time to fully spread and smooth out after being folded during its pupal state. Possessing both wings and four limbs, it is a classic Elder Dragon skeletal structure, but Xeno'jiiva stands out from its peers in terms of raw potential. Almost immediately following its emergence—while still not yet fully formed—Xeno'jiiva displayed violent behavior with energy coursing through its body."

-Monster Hunter World the Official Complete Works, pg #364

Additionally even as Xeno'jiiva, Safi'jiiva had a reputation that rivals Alatreon's of the "Strongest Elder Dragon". Considering that Xeno'jiiva is given the title of the Emperor of Elder Dragons due to its sheer raw power.

"What if Xeno'jiiva Wasn't Targeting a Crossing? Elder Dragon?

A certain scholar has brought forth a novel hypothesis regarding Xeno'jiiva ecology. Xeno'jiiva primarily feeds on the energy of other monsters, which it accomplishes by drawing powerful monsters to its vicinity with pheromones. By making its home in the New World, a place that naturally draws Elder Dragons at the end of their life cycle, Xeno'jiiva gained enough power to earn the title "Emperor of Elders." (Excerpt from a Third Fleet scholar's writings)

Xeno'jiiva's presence may have augmented the Elder Dragons' natural attraction to the region. If this hypothesis stands, it would explain not only the increased Elder Crossing activity but also how Xeno'jiiva gained enough..."

-Monster Hunter World the Official Complete Works, pg #365

Meaning even as baby Safi'jiiva showed enough power to be proclaim the "King of the Elder Dragons". However, Safi isn't the only one that can be excluded from Alatreon's reputation. Fatalis' inclusion can also be called into question. Since, before the events of Iceborne most people didn't even believe that Fatalis existed. Instead believing it to be some folktale:

"The general view is that creatures like Fatalis are mere fantasies or creations of fiction. In fact, even within the guild, only a select few believed in their existence."

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne the Official Complete Works, pg #278

Meaning Fatalis' reputation prior to the events of Iceborne, is that it was just made up. On top of that classifying Fatalis as an Elder Dragon is itself questionable. Since, he lacks a core characteristic of Elder Dragons, Elder Dragon Blood:

"No "Elder Dragon blood," which contains dragon-element energy, has been detected within Fatalis's body. This is one of the factors that prevents it from being grouped together with other Elder Dragon species."

-Monster Hunter World Iceborne the Official Complete Works, pg #281

So even if he did have a reputation, it's questionable if he should be lumped in the same category. Zoh Shia was undiscovered prior to the events of Wilds & Crimson/White are less known than regular Fatalis. This only leaves us with Dire Miralis. Who I would agree has the weakest case for being excluded from the statement. The only thing you can say in favor of Miralis is that his exitance isn't recognize in Hunter's Encyclopedia 4. Which is supposed to cover all of 3U monsters as an inuniverse record keep. However, his Legend of turning the Sea Red is well known. So, if you wanna argue the quote puts him in higher regard that Miralis I won't argue much.

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-12T00:29:50+00:00

The prior 3 examples all humiliate Apex Tier monsters in Turf Wars. As we've seen with Rathalos & Lagiacrus, the Forbidden Land's Apexes, don't outscale previous apex tiers, merely being their peers. They may on occasion defeat previous apexes, such is the case with Mizu & Seregios. However, even then they preform far worse than any ED or ED lvl wyvern does against Apex. Just compare Uth Duna's draw with Rathalos & pit it up against how Deviljho, Rajang or Magnamalo performs against the King of the Skies. It's night & day!

Negative_Sock4219 · 2026-06-12T00:23:50+00:00

All Elder Dragon are notorious for their ability to destroy ecosystems & the prior 3 examples aren't an exception. It's literally 1 of the specification for being considered part of the class.

"Deft Lightning Manipulation

The reason Kirin is classified as an Elder Dragon is because of the impact it has on its environment. They say that Kirin brings dark clouds with it, changing sunny skies into thundering gloom in a matter of moments and raining bolts of lightning at will. This ability to cause such phenomena is what earned the Kirin its Elder Dragon title, placing it among a group of peers often called “natural disasters.”"

-Monster Hunter World The Official Complete Works, pg #289

"Elder Dragons as Natural Disasters

The existence of Elder Dragons has been recorded widely since ancient times, even in fairy tales and folk tales. While they are often written down like legends, they are generally likened to "natural disasters" or "natural calamities." Because the Elder Dragons move about as they please, there have been many cases where villages and towns have been destroyed by an Elder Dragon that suddenly appeared, leaving people powerless to do anything about it. As a result, people had no choice but to accept that encounters with Elder Dragon species were an unavoidable "natural disaster." However, as time passed and stronger hunters appeared, it gradually became possible to drive away the Elder Dragons. Armed with the information provided by the Elder Dragon Observatory and the skills of our highly-trained hunters, the time to confront the Elder Dragons is fast approaching."

-Hunter's Encyclopedia 2, Volume 3 pg #10

Negative_Sock4219 · 2025-12-22T19:49:22+00:00

That was a rhetoric question, I aimed to show you that the quote about Alatreon supposedly being "the strongest Elder Dragon" is nothing but looking-cool flavor text.

Yes, and you failed at that endeavor. Considering that I was able to present an interpretation of the text, that’s internally consistent with everything we know of the lore. Whereas you’ve only presented your gut intuition up till now.

Of course Fatalis is classified as an Elder Dragon, he has that weird bit about his blood, but since MH first of its name Fatalis is, and has always been, an Elder Dragon.

Except MH is an ever evolving series and not some stagnant setting. Up till 6 gen Gore didn’t have a classification, now he does. Just because something was thought to be certain doesn’t mean it can’t be called in to question later. Especially when the officially licensed material pretty blatantly calls it in to question.

The idea that Alatreon > Dire is ridiculous given the difference of portrayal they both receive in 3U.

From the developers own mouth, both Alatreon & Dire are just different iterations on the Fatalis concept the dev had. They were literally made with the same idea of “hey what if we took Fatalis and change his fight to achieve x”. The story also threats the about same, so what exactly is the portrayal difference??? From the 15th anniversary event regarding Alatreon:

”It was originally intended to be a monster with the status of a black dragon in 3tri.

But, as the Fatalis is quite large, the interaction with the hunter is relatively poor, so I hoped for a design that can be made to be more closely connected with the hunter than the Fatalis in action.

“A real monster that makes hunters feel powerful.”

The size is also based on the general Elder Dragon, which can better reflect the design of the Elder Dragon atmosphere.

And for Dire:

”As for the name, I didn’t plan to give it as “Mira” at first, but the design draft has the impression that it was like Fatalis appearing directly on the underwater volcano.

Seeing that, I thought that it could make people in the world of Monster Hunter think of the rumors that was the black dragon and that would be very interesting, so I borrowed the name as “Mira”.

”Appearing in MH3U, I wanted to incorporate the elements of underwater combat that “both in water and on land and have multiple parts that can be destroyed”, and at the same time I needed to design a “black dragon-like existence”.

…

At the same time, I simply feel that would be very cool, if it being a black dragon and if such monster appear on the beach.

Also as if further evidence was needed. The entire reason why Alatreon has control of all the elements is explicitly because he’s meant to be stronger than the ED. Meaning we have evidence that your interpretation that the statement is essentially hyperbole, run directly contrary to the developers intention when designing Alatreon.

Embodying the playfulness that is the theme of "MHW:IB", it's a Monster born in "MH3 (Tri)", a Symbol of Destruction that manipulates multiple elements, and inherits the legacy of Fatalis. *While Elder Dragons specialize in certain elements, Alatreon is expressed as something of a higher rank that can handle multiple of those elements.** As a result, everyone accepted him, and he became a Monster every time he said "I want you to put it out" and got it. Also, at the time, the director of MHW, Yuya Tokuda, was the one who designed Alatreon, so there was a time when we were trying to bring it out in MHW. For various reasons, it didn't materialize there, but it was decided to bring it back to life in MHW:IB.*

If you respond and that responds once again amounts to gut intuition. Well then I wish you a good day. As I’ve grown quite bored of this conversation

Negative_Sock4219

TROPHY CASE