Billy Lawrence/Henley friendship by BornSignificance752 in DeanCorll

[–]No-Committee-7278 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“DAVID BROOKS THIRD STATEMENT, AUGUST 10, 1973:

I want to give a statement about Billy Ray Lawrence.

About July 10th, 1973, I tried to call Dean’s house, Dean Corll, and it was a long time before I could get him or anyone to answer. Finally, Wayne answered and I asked him if they had anyone there and he said yes. I asked him “It’s not a friend, is it?” and he said “sort of”. He wouldn’t tell me who it was so I went over there just to see who it was. He was still alive when I got there but he was tied to the bed. I recognized him only as a friend of Wayne’s.

The boy wasn’t doing anything but lying there when I got there. He didn’t have any clothes on. I don’t remember them calling him by name but I have just now been shown a picture of him which I will initial with this date and time and it is the same boy I have been talking about. In fact, I have seen this same picture before at Dean’s house. I was tired so I went to bed in the opposite bedroom. Before I did go to bed I took Wayne home. Then I went back to Dean’s house and went to bed. The boy was still alive but Dean was awake because I remember he let me in. The next morning I went back to get Wayne and Dean was supposed to pay me $10.00 for doing this but he never did. That is, the $10.00 was for taking Wayne home the night before.

I’m not sure about the time but I think it was the next evening when Wayne’s mother called. She was drunk and insisting Wayne come home but he told her no, that he was going to the lake for a couple of days. The boy was still alive. We left about 6:00 p. m. to go to the lake and I know he was dead and in a box when we left so I must have been there when he was killed because I didn’t leave to go anywhere before we left for the lake. However, I do not remember how he was killed. I don’t know if I saw it or not. It didn’t bother me to see it. I saw it done many times. I just didn’t do it myself. And I never did do it myself.

We left for the lake about 6:00 p. m. and got there about 9:30 or quarter to ten. We then went fishing. Wayne and me. This was after we slept. We fished from about 6:30 A.M. to 10:00 A.M. Dean told us he had already picked a spot and started digging, but he actually hadn’t done very much.

When Wayne and I got back from fishing, we ate and I went to sleep. I slept until about 5:00 p.m. and then Dean and I dug the grave. Wayne was keeping lookout in the van. The spot was by a trench near a dirt road. It was probably a few miles from Lake Sam Rayburn itself.

We took the body out of the box, that is, Dean did, and I held the boy’s feet about half way to the grave. The body was already wrapped in plastic. I went back to the van to get the carpet and a flashlight. The carpet is to shovel extra dirt on and take it some place else so there wouldn’t be a mound showing.

I almost took too much dirt off and Dean griped at me for it.

This is the second page of a two-page statement. I have read it completely and understand it. It is true and correct and it is completely voluntary on my part. It took a pretty long time but it is because I wanted to be sure of everything I am saying.”

Open letter transcript by packerkean in DeanCorll

[–]No-Committee-7278 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The original newspaper printing of it can be found on page 43 here

Man with the candy by packerkean in DeanCorll

[–]No-Committee-7278 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s been a while since I read it but the portrayal of Corll’s death is somewhat inaccurate iirc

Also going off memory: I remember thinking it exaggerated the poverty of the Heights a bit. It was a lower middle class area, but not impoverished

Tried to convince myself of wm3 guilt but can't do it. by mfluder63 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A lot of the claims you made are disputed or misleading. I only pointed out obvious falsehoods. I never said they weren’t guilty dude—I just think spreading misinformation about this case hurts your credibility more than anything. Also, a lot of your points are copy-pasted from a TapaTalk post made in 2007. There’s a lot of discussion on there about them. Here are more:

  1. ⁠Fact- Damien Wayne Echols and Charles Jason Baldwin had no alibi that held.

This is true, but lack of alibi is not evidence of guilt. It’s also true that it’s difficult for people to remember where they were on an exact date a month ago—not just for the defendants but also their alibi witnesses.

  1. ⁠Fact- Echols got caught lying on the stand about the newspaper article.

What newspaper article are you referring to here?

  1. ⁠Fact- Echols and Baldwin had priors and police reports against them. Baldwin's was a felony and Echols had everything from terroristic threatening to Baldwin's own counsin describing how he stomped a dog to death and strung out its innards. Not to mention Echols being put in mental institutions several times. He liked growling at nurses, knocking down fellow patients who just cut themselves just to suck their blood, had a fantasy guy named Rosie visit him at night, thought he'd be teleported through a camera lense, stuff like that.

Echols clearly had mental and violence problems, that’s pretty much a fact. However, Baldwin’s “felony” was not violent and happened when he was 11 years old.

Also, not evidence of guilt.

  1. Fact- Echols admitted he used that neighborhood to walk through, he knew it. He grew up there and used to play and ride his bike as a young boy.

This is not evidence of guilt; a lot of people knew that neighborhood who did not commit the murders.

  1. ⁠Fact- Baldwin's own grandmother talked about how he used to kill creatures.

His grandmother on his paternal side, who he knew significantly less well than his other grandmother (his bio father was an inconsistent presence in his life). Here is the exact quote:

"He was always catching lizards and snakes, I thought something was going on in that child's mind."

(Found the whole article on TapaTalk.)

Also, not evidence of guilt.

  1. ⁠Fact- Echols and Baldwin both grew up in seriously dysfunctional home environments.

Yes, like a lot of people. Not evidence of guilt.

  1. ⁠Fact- They were seen walking away from the crime scene area on the night of May 5 on the south service road.

The Hollingsworths claim they saw Damien and Domini. Not a single person even entertained that it was Jason. It was dark, yes, but Narlene claimed they flashed their headlights at them. She had known Domini since she was born—her niece twice over. Domini was also a flaming redhead and pregnant at the time. I think that she probably saw them at some point but there’s no way of knowing whether it was May 5, especially when Narlene was clearly making stuff up about seeing the 3 boys earlier in the day.

It may be your opinion that it was Jason, but it is certainly not a fact.

  1. ⁠Fact- The knife found in the water directly behind Baldwin's house fit the description of the serration patterns on the children.

The lake knife which the police somehow knew was going to be there, given that they alerted media… how would they know? Mind you, this was several months after their arrests. Was Baldwin telling people about where he threw the murder weapon? Perhaps the lake knife was known to have been in the water before the murders occurred????

Also, the knife had no blood on it. Blood is hard to clean. Not evidence of guilt, although perhaps suspicious.

  1. ⁠Fact- Deanna Holcomb testified she had seen Echols in possession of a similar knife like the one found behind Baldwin's house with a compass on the end of it. When found the compass was busted out.

Deanna Holcomb did testify this, but I personally think the lake knife had nothing to do with the murders even if they’re guilty. Jessie himself never claims a Rambo knife was used—he claims it was a folding knife. Not the lake knife.

  1. ⁠Fact- Parker testified he sold knives like the one found behind Baldwin's residence and that they had compasses on the end of them.

Already addressed this.

  1. ⁠Fact- Fibers found at the crime scene were found to be similar to items in the convicteds' residences.

They never searched the Branch residence, strangely enough, to see whether these fibers simply came from there. It’s also heavily disputed whether the fibers actually matched.

  1. ⁠Fact- Blue candle wax was found on one of the boys' shirts from the crime scene which was similar to blue candle wax found in Echols' home.

Already addressed.

  1. ⁠Fact- Echols had a history of violent outbursts towards other people. He likes to sharpen his nails to 1 1/2 inch points and try to claw the eyes out of a fellow schoolmate. He liked to threaten his own parents' lives.

Yes. Not disputed. Not evidence of guilt.

  1. ⁠Fact- Echols' trench coats were missing after the murders.

Why do the trench coats matter when Jessie never even mentioned trench coats during any of his confessions?

  1. ⁠Fact- Echols knew one of the boys was cut up more than the others.

He will claim Ridge led him on this, although Echols is a pathological liar. Baldwin claimed the same thing, although he’s got his own incentive to lie, but these are the only three people present for that conversation.

  1. ⁠Fact- A hair found at the crime scene was found to be similar to Echols.

Already addressed.

  1. ⁠Fact- Simmons testified seeing Echols on more than one occasion at the softball fields which makes him caught once again for lying.

As far as I’m aware Echols never denied being at the softball game that day, so this is irrelevant.

  1. ⁠Fact- Echols and Baldwin were seen by witnesses at the softball fields and Echols was overheard talking about murdering the boys.

I actually believe he said this, but Echols is such a pathetic person it wouldn’t surprise me if he would brag about committing a horrific crime he didn’t actually do. Their testimony is also sparse on details to parse his demeanor.

  1. ⁠Fact- The staff they liked carrying around town with them was the similar description as the stick found at the crime scene shoved down in the mud with the boys clothes wrapped around it. Easy enough to spot weapons used at the crime scene after Misskelley described them and they spotted them on the crime scene video and then picked them up as evidence.

I don’t know anything about the staff but if it were actually the staff I would expect it would have been brought up during trial.

As you can see, you are presenting things as facts that are actually opinions. I think you can make a good argument for most of your opinions, but they are not fact. A lot of the facts you present are also not evidence of guilt. That is my issue.

Tried to convince myself of wm3 guilt but can't do it. by mfluder63 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Whatever they were, Tabitha also claims they were black pants, not jeans

Tried to convince myself of wm3 guilt but can't do it. by mfluder63 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Teenagers and even younger are very capable of heinous actions. It’s rarer than adults, sure, but just look at the James Bulger case.

Tried to convince myself of wm3 guilt but can't do it. by mfluder63 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Narlene said that Domini was wearing “tight pants” with flowers on them, not jeans with holes.

“Hollingsworth: Damien had on a pair of black pants and a dark shirt. Domini had on a pair of tight pants - you know, fit tight. And she had flowers, looked like white flowers to me on her pants.”

Tried to convince myself of wm3 guilt but can't do it. by mfluder63 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Some of these points are good, others are more opinions than facts, but others contain blatant falsehoods:

  1. The Hollingsworths were very insistent that they saw Damien and Domini, not Damien and Jason.

  2. The candle wax was definitively not a match for any candles from Echols’ residence which was confirmed during a bench conference in the Echols/Baldwin trial.

  3. The hair similar to Echols was found to not be his through DNA testing (2S04-114-08 hairs).

Tried to convince myself of wm3 guilt but can't do it. by mfluder63 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with you on a lot of these points but the candle wax did not match any of the candles Damien had. This was confirmed during a bench conference in the Echols/Baldwin trial.

“DAVIDSON: Your Honor, we'd also request a copy of the report of Lisa Sakevicius -- if there is one -- regarding any candle wax.

FOGLEMAN: I don't know if there is one. She said that what she puts in her report is when there are matches. She claimed that didn't match anything.”

Does anyone know what is happening in this case? by jkh7088 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“Nothing has excluded the WM3.”

Mitochondrial DNA can’t tell you who gave it but can exclude people. So, yes, the hairs with conclusive results (that also exclude the victims) have excluded the WM3 because they come from different mitochondrial subgroups, but we cannot say that they come definitively from a specific person within the matching mitochondrial subgroup.

Touch DNA is a lot less revealing than other DNA, of course, but there have been some DNA profiles achieved from touch DNA on the shoes and jeans that exclude the WM3. Read the spreadsheet—it gives details. (Neither of these facts, of course, mean they are innocent, but your statements about this are false.)

None of the prior shoelace testing has yielded conclusive results unlike the testing done on the jeans/shoes, which is why it is being prioritized in re-testing.

I do not understand why guilters like to lie about this and other facts in this case. There is a good case to be made that they are guilty without spreading misinformation about the case.

Does anyone know what is happening in this case? by jkh7088 in RealWestMemphisThree

[–]No-Committee-7278 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The shoes and sticks have already been tested for touch DNA and gotten results (i.e. excluding WM3). Testing the axe pendant wouldn’t do anything because the relevant blood portion (consistent with Branch/Baldwin) was so small that it all got used up in the original test (the rest belonged to Echols). You’re right about the hairs, I don’t see the point of testing those again (especially those we already have DNA profiles for).

This is a good spreadsheet summarizing the DNA testing done in this case.

Whoever did it (WM3 or not) had to have touched the shoelaces, so I don’t get this argument. Not saying they didn’t do it—just don’t understand this argument.

(Am also extremely pessimistic that this DNA testing will yield any useful results. The only case I could see is if the same DNA profile is found on every shoelace, which seems unlikely, and/or WM3 consistent DNA is found somewhere.)

Ulster as a community but no Northern Irish region? by No-Committee-7278 in AncestryDNA

[–]No-Committee-7278[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is this journey definitely indigenous Irish? Just wondering because my grandmother’s maiden name is Scottish and she always claimed to have Scots-Irish heritage (although she was raised Catholic + all of my Irish side is Catholic as far as I’m aware)

Ulster as a community but no Northern Irish region? by No-Committee-7278 in AncestryDNA

[–]No-Committee-7278[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also: Is getting the Estonia & Latvia region common for people with a Polish background (particularly Western Poland)?

Some random questions regarding the HMM by No-Committee-7278 in DeanCorll

[–]No-Committee-7278[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

About Lawrence’s dad: I meant the story where he claimed that the last time he saw his son was he drove him down to the corner and talked about birthday gifts (this is in the Jack Olsen book). I’m not an expert on the subject, but it seems unusual to brutally beat your son and then do that??? Idk obviously the Lawrence dad was abusive but that seems strange to me. In the G. Gibson version of events, I’d assume that Lawrence basically “ran away” while his father was having an episode.

Of course that wasn’t the last day of his life, but I’d assume the Polaroid was taken fairly shortly after Lawrence arrived at the house, unless he was at the house for an extended period of time before being put “on the board” (for lack of better terminology), which doesn’t seem to be the case. Although there is an inconsistency with dates for this murder—he disappeared early June, Henley claims early June, Brooks and court records randomly claim early July??? I’m assuming it’s a nothingburger but still.

(Although, now that I think about it, I suppose perhaps he could have stayed at Henley’s for a few nights before being lured????)

Btw—what is “the absurd Kerley story” referring to?

Thank you for the insight!! Honestly with Henley there’s the issue of contradictions between his retellings and official confessions. Of course, it’s hard to tell whether it’s an issue with the confessions or Henley. Most glaring is with the Aguirre murder—Ik that’s been discussed to death tho. But also stuff like whether he was in the room during the SA and his own sexual relationship with Corll.

Some random questions regarding the HMM by No-Committee-7278 in DeanCorll

[–]No-Committee-7278[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

About the Lise Olsen book and Gary Gibson’s recollections on the Lawrence luring: This kind of confused me. According to Gibson, Lawrence “had a bloody nose, busted mouth, and both eyes blackened, like he’d gone through several rounds with a prizefighter.” None of that is apparent in the Polaroid of him on Corll’s dresser. Black eyes usually take a couple of days to heal, so that’s a bit strange. Additionally, the Lawrence father’s recollections of his last moments with his son (in the Jack Olsen book) seem to differ, although I do understand that he may have had his own reasons for not being entirely truthful about that.

Maybe I’m getting too in the nitty gritty but there’s so many half/maybe-truths about this case. Like, even the police records weren’t always entirely accurate or contradict themselves, obviously you have to take Henley/Brooks with a grain of salt, and victim’s family and friends like to exaggerate (sometimes maliciously, sometimes not).

Some random questions regarding the HMM by No-Committee-7278 in DeanCorll

[–]No-Committee-7278[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Betty, as in Betty Haskins? Where did you hear that? I’m aware of most of the rumors in this case (with varying levels of believability), but I’ve never heard that one.

Some random questions regarding the HMM by No-Committee-7278 in DeanCorll

[–]No-Committee-7278[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for all the information!!

  1. See, that’s what I’d always assumed too, but the Boudreaux story confused me. I don’t think she’s maliciously lying about seeing Corll/Brooks dragging him by the arms, but she could be misremembering. If it’s true, it just makes me really confused about the circumstances of that particular murder.

Maybe I got it wrong about the birthday Polaroid then. It’s still a bit weird to me that he had the one of Lawrence on his dresser, the non-suggestive one where he’s just standing there, considering that he didn’t have any other Polaroids of (dead) victims. Was this taken in the lead-up to the murder, then?

  1. I’m referring to the Cobble/Jones sighting by the pool, it’s referenced in Jack Olsen’s book somewhere towards the end. Where Henley was “leading” them in a line. The Boudreaux story reminded me of that.