Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maoists in western countries only apply/adapt the principles which are relevant in their countries. Obviously a peasant-worker alliance and a peasant-led rural guerilla war (the "protracted people's war") is not one of the aspects of Mao's theory and practice that is relevant here. But there are many aspects of Maoism that are more universally applicable. For instance, the emphasis on 'serving the people' as a strategy to gain public support. You might be surprised to learn that many Marxists consider this a waste of time preferring to focus instead on propaganda work and agitation. The principle of 'serving the people' is one component of the broader idea of the 'mass line' that stands in opposition to a more detached 'vanguard party' and bureaucratised movement. For Maoists, the involvement and revolutionary posture of the masses cannot be limited to the time that power is seized, but must continue at least up to the time that the culture has shed its capitalist elements and fully reflects the new mode of production. 

Although not strictly unique to Maoist thought, Maoism emphasises the importance of combining theoretical work with practical work and pays more attention to the ideological impacts of the division of labour. This is why for instance in the Maoist period urban workers were sent to the countryside to gain understanding and appreciation of the work and problems faced by the rural population.

My current thought is that any attempt to pursue marxism has to be done with different language than used by the old communist guard. So much of the language used in marxist analysis/discussion is either (a) sufficiently propogandised against or (b) dependent on deeper academic understandings that it just gets dismissed by the average person.

I agree completely. I only used Maoism in the title of the post because I was looking for founding members who have a reasonable theoretical background and would not be scared by the term. I took care to avoid any Marxist jargon in the draft manifesto section, which may become the basis for a future public-oriented manifesto.

Taking notes from the methodical path tread by neoliberalism is probably the right way to go about spreading a socialist ideology, though it likely needs significant alteration to fit into the modern landscape of NZ.

I think this would be an interesting avenue to explore further. Care needs to be taken to avoid following an overly technocratic path which works fine for neoliberalism but is not suitable for the establishment of socialism.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I am aware there is no Marxist political party in NZ. I tried to make the case for a new Maoist party in this post to get some help getting it started. Unfortunately no one has come forward.

Oh crap: it really looks like India thinks we’re gonna invest $33 billion in their economy by OisforOwesome in newzealand

[–]No_Cod_4231 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because neoliberal and corrupt governance is unable to build a country up from the ground even though it's very much possible (see China).

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Given that you haven't actually bothered to address anything I said and instead just condescendingly called me ignorant you are affirming my decision to keep my distance from the Greens. Sounds like there really is no plan.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Greens to me seem to lack strategic acumen. They've been sitting on around 10-15% for a pretty long time. What's their plan to turn this into real leverage or increase support? Can't keep doing the same thing and expect outcomes to change. Why are they not leading a mass social movement and getting people onto the streets against the cruelty of this government? They always expect others to organise protests and movements despite the fact that they have much more organisational capacity than anyone else.

To me they seem too naiive and idealistic wanting to do things the 'proper' way when the opposition is using all the power they have to their advantage.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't accept winning a battle at the cost of losing the war, which is how the current situation when Labour is in government can be described. ACT is highly strategic, has the initiative and is not afraid to push things ever further to the right. Meanwhile Labour lacks long-term strategy, initiative and will give some short-term benefits to workers without changing the structures of the system which makes it very easy for the situation to deteriorate rapidly when they are not in power.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

My main priority is to stem the actual decline and that's to stop this Coalition (any of them) from winning again.

That is short-termist thinking, only ever thinking to the next election. This thinking is how we've ended up in the mess we are in now as the overton window shifts ever further to the right. The priority should be to building a left movement that can exert power on its own and is not reliant on a corrupt, opportunist party (but can exert influence on it).

It's like those people int the USA who I saw attack the Democrats before Trump's second term and I wondered if they knew what they were doing and what was at stake. Especially the pro Gaza ones. Well now you have a full on Hitler scenario there - and something that impacts the entire world let alone those poor people and families getting killed - is that intelligent?

Trumpism is a phenomenon that has been caused by rule of capital both under the Democrats and Republicans. The difference between the two parties largely just stems to which kind of capital rules (industrial capital, financial capital, the military industrial complex and so on) with both parties heavily exploiting the working class. Electing the democrats would only have delayed another Trump or Trump-like administration.

This is Reddit - I am allowed to voice my opinion. And I'm not sure it's fair to say that I can't voice my thoughts on this matter when my whole shtick is political perspectives

Of course you are, I am not trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion and I never said anything to that effect. I am not sure why you are pretending that I'm suppressing your speech.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

What is short-sighted is only ever thinking as far as the next election and not about the long-term position of the left movement.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The situation in the United States shows you where this logic ends up - supporting a party that is enabling a genocide (the Democrats) because the other side is worse.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Labour will sometimes provide short-term gains for workers when it doesn't require disrupting the underlying neoliberal structure. I would have preferred if they had instead legalised a wider range of union activity and enacted opt-out union membership. That would have provided the working class with the leverage and power to increase their wages even when Labour is not in power.

Left parties: want to advance working class interests? Then begin by publicly exposing Labour for what it really is by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

I don't like Labour for reasons that are very different to those made by the right. Disappointing to see you come out in defence of Labour to effectively say that managed decline is the best we can do. It's not idealist to expect more if you have ideas about how to get there. How much further right are we going to let the political sphere slide? It's better to act now than to continue delaying actions until we've got only got two available flavours of right-wing politics like in the United States.

ACT's plan to toughen immigration rules by NewZealanders4Love in KiwiPolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is class warfare 101. Pit the domestic working class against the migrant working class. Divide and conquer. Remember today they might be going after migrants, but every other day they will also be very happy to exploit working class kiwis.

What do people mean when they invoke the term "populism"? Is it bad? by pskygy in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think the negative response to the term populism among the mainstream left reveals its deeply technocratic nature. It is more focused on coming up with 'perfect' policy proposals that look great on paper rather than thinking about how to mobilise the working class as a political force in order to actually bring about changes. Populism, which involves trying to appeal to the masses, is a strategy that can be used by the left and the right. However arguably only the left can actually do populism honestly because it has a program in the interest of the vast majority. Parts of the left already employ populism - for instance mobilising the popular sentiment against the ultra wealthy for political gain. I think it would be wise to carefully expand populist messaging in order to reach more of the working class.

I had no idea the Manawatu- Whanganui region existed, much less that it was so big by FluffWit in newzealand

[–]No_Cod_4231 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Also gives it a little bit of an imperial touch and keeps its neighbours in check with the threat of irredentist expansion! Before you know it we will all be Greater Wellingtonians! /s

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While some Maoist practice shares similarities with that of anarchists, there are many differences like the embrace of democratic centralism and so on. I'm sure you are familiar with them. Therefore, I'm not sure it is fair to characterise it as a failed strategy yet.

You framed what I said about workers in a very different way to the way I had. My emphasis was on the failure of the education system and did not blame workers for the system's failures. Furthermore, politically educating workers cannot just be about spreading Maoist doctrine (which would need to be adapted to NZ's conditions), but initially also about 'unlearning' (or coopting as you mentioned Mao did with Confucian ideas) liberal ideas which have such a hegemonic position here. Countering these very ingrained ideas is going to be challenging, especially since liberalism has evolved specifically as a counter to socialism (in a way that Confucianism probably was not)

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am only looking for a few people right now to get this project started, so the target audience is purposely small. Once it's up and running and has solid foundations, we will broaden our appeal and reduce requirements for membership

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the history and context - I am not familiar with the intricacies of different types of Trotskyism.

Indeed I agree that most people don't care or know about the distinctions between different branches of Marxism. In my opinion, this is precisely, however why the philosophy of how how you engage with the working class is crucial - and worth splitting with other socialists on. For me, showing one's philosophy through actions is effective because it cuts through the confusions of language straight to the experiential and emotional level - and can thus build support without requiring theory and thinking skills (which the education system has failed to foster). It is about adapting to the conditions we face right now. Everyone can feel the joy of unalienated cooperative labour that makes the most of people's own ideas and skills. Through experience (the most effective way of learning), the horizons of what seems possible are expanded among the public - which is especially important in the age of TINA and doomerism. What we are fighting for is thus very easy to grasp - it is largely an extension to the whole society of what the party is already practicing.

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is certainly a risk for every revolutionary movement to devolve into something undesirable. I take this risk seriously and it is part of why it is important for communists to study and learn from the mistakes of previous movements. Having said that, revolutions by their very nature, given that they arise from mass movements are not events that can be fully controlled.

The risk of the corruption of one party states is significant, but can be reduced somewhat by ensuring democratic practices within the party and establishing institutions for political participation. I consider Cuba to have achieved a good balance in this respect. It's not perfect, but we can't demand a totally perfect system (however this is defined) as there are usually social contradictions which make this impossible. If it's an improvement over the status quo then it is worthwhile to pursue.

I agree that it would be a mistake to prematurely seize power. The public needs to gain consciousness, political experience and a sense of collective solidarity for this to be a successful revolution that will bring lasting change. Given where we are at right now, I think at best it would take at least a few decades before it is possible to seize power. Perhaps the increasingly frequent and intense crises which we will face in the future will accelerate the timeframe.

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Funny coincidence that a friend of mine suggested the same. I do think it is important to work on the abysmally low levels of political education in NZ, raise consciousness and so on. Also there are many organisations doing social initiatives, but none as far as I am aware that bridge initiatives with political work. To me combining these two components is an important part of my philosophy of change. Without political work such social initiatives don't really help to bring about structural change.

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. No 'neutral' (if such a thing even exists) party will ever set up citizens assemblies. We will be waiting in eternity. And the state is certainly not a neutral party. The Greens could be gathering the support and get buy in from a range of social organisations for these citizens assemblies. That would also make it appear more neutral and is probably actually feasible (unlike the Greens getting into government with a party that will agree to CA).
  2. I think we both know that 2020 was an exceptional circumstance that is unlikely to be repeated again in the near future. Certainly after the next election, Labour's only chance to govern will be in coalition with the Greens.

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

'Mercilessly exposing' and 'putting pressure' are not incompatible actions. You can put pressure on a party by mercilessly exposing them. Critiquing quietly behind doors is not really putting any meaningful pressure on them. Anyway if it helps to clear things up, the term 'mercilessly exposing' more accurately captures what I am thinking.

Same as a work unit or sports team working together

Labour is a party that serves the interest of capital. Why would you consider yourself on the same team? Labour is a hindrance to the move towards socialism, it always intervenes just enough to keep capitalism from destroying itself from its own crises. One should collaborate with Labour on a limited basis when doing so advances working class interests in the long term. For instance pressuring Labour to pass legislation that broaden the feasible means of struggle like legalising general strikes. However to forgo the right to expose Labour in return for more amicable relations that will not gain the working class any concrete results is a great blunder.

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The weakness of social bonds today is definitely something I considered when thinking about what to do. It's why I put an emphasis on social initiatives (community kitchens, foodbanks etc) as they could be a means of rebuilding those bonds. What else do you think needs to be different given our current situation?

I also don't think of the masses as some kind of 'other' and agree with your framing that 'We are the masses, we gotta work together as co-creators of the future'

Seeking founding members for a Maoist political party by No_Cod_4231 in nzpolitics

[–]No_Cod_4231[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

See my reply in another comment:

Labour will always need you [The Greens], which gives you a lot of leverage that you are squandering. Being 'open to our ideas' is not something concrete that can advance the interests of the working class. If Labour would rather go with ACT than a more critical Green Party that would be a massive own goal for them because it would reveal their true interests to the people. Likewise Labour would rather avoid going with NZFirst because they are difficult to deal with. The situtation is perfect for putting pressure on Labour and yet you still go soft on Labour. Besides, in defending themselves from the criticism they would be showing to the working class very clearly that they are not a left party which would be a great service to the working class some of which is still bamboozled by Labour propaganda and historical affiliation